PongogloF35C???
And fly it off wot! B is only choice out there – even we Brits with 65,000 tonner’s (tonner??) have finally seen sense. 😡
PongogloThink the ‘alongside Portsmouth’ image is the best of the CATOBAR’s weve seen yet. This is going to be a very good looking ship (and we would hope capable as well!). Also interesting is that the image entitled Queen Elizabeth Class at sea’ shows two aircraft ready to go on the ‘cats’ and a third coming into land with hook deployed. Does this imply the capability for simultaneous recovery and launch, or am I reading too much?
PongogloI’ve seen talk that it’s that QE will still be completed with it’s ski ramp, pointless much?
Well the Jane’s article seems pretty clear on that one?
‘While Prince of Wales – the second of class for which manufacturing activities began in May 2011 – will be configured for CV operations from build, the advanced state of work on Queen Elizabeth has meant that the the retrofit of catapults and arrestor gear would be impractical without major disruption to the build program. Queen Elizabeth will therefor be completed in 2016 to the original STOVL configuration (minus ski-jump) and enter service to prove the platform, provide crew training and achieve rotary wing clearances. Queen Elizabeth will then enter a state of extended readiness around 2019 when Prince of Wales enters service.’
So for a while we will indeed own the worlds largest LPH! :):mad: Question therefor appears to be if no ski-jump, which makes sense, will QE be completed without flight deck extension and angled deck? If so, might make later conversion to ‘Cats n traps’ a lot more costly – and a lot less likely! :confused:
PongogloAlthough Im sold on our selection of F35C for what we need to do from our carriers and as the follow on to the Tornado force, I have to say that the video reminded me that I kind of like the B. STOVL still has lots of advantages when it comes to sortie rates, forwarding basing from austere FOB’s, simultaneity with rotary ops etc etc. Shame our economy is not in as good a shape as the Italians, then maybe we could afford a mixed fleet too. 😀
PongogloSlightly back on topic..an interesting little video from Ultra Electronics who produce the EOS (Electro Optical System) for the Type 45 with their Series 2500. Of note:
‘Additionally for the UK carrier programme Ultra is providinga Series 2500 for Glide Path Camera operations in order to enable the safe recovery of fixed wing fighter aircraft.’
The video still depicts the STOVL variant CVF with the ugly bump on the nose, and shows the system in use directing an F 35B to conduct a rolling recovery, however it is still very interesting as the glide path analysis would appear equally relevant to ‘Cats an Traps’.
Also of interest is the 2500’s apparent utility in defeating a fast inshore attack craft threat which the simulation depicts to effect. As the Daring’s are equipped with the same close range defence combination as currently planned for CVF ie MSi DS30’s, and Phalanx Block 1B, we would hope that with a few years in hand for the technology to mature, it should prove a good bit of kit! :diablo:
The video’s here:
PongogloBritain offers to swap US F-35 fighter
it may well be a blessing in disguise, forcing the gov to buy SH for the navy and a number of F35A for the RAF (i believe they want the first day ability it offers)
Actually the RAF always wanted the C. Weve got a perfectly good fighter in the shape of Typhoon, which is actually proving itself pretty good as a mud mover as well. RAF interest as regards F35 has always been as a direct replacement for the Tornado as in deep penetration long range strike.
Even when the RN/RAF were due to get the B for carrier ops, there was always talk in RAF circles of additional C’s to fulfill this role, but the A was always considered too short on legs. Even in US circles the F35A is considered a direct replacement for the F16, with the added advantage of ‘Stealth’.
Anyhow it looks like we are still very serious about getting the C, with no real fear of cancellation on the part of MOD. This from today:
‘In a letter to the US Congress, the UK proposed that Washington give it one of its carrier variants (F-35C) of the F-35 in exchange for a short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) version, called the F-35B, according to the Defence News.
The Pentagon described the trade as “mutually beneficial” and “cost neutral”, but it requires a legislative amendment to the 2012 defence authorization bill.
It requested the amendment in a June 14 letter from Elizabeth King, assistant secretary of defence for legislative affairs, to Vice President Joe Biden, in his role as president of the US Senate, the Defence News reported.’
full story here:
PongogloSorry. Disagree. Any expeditionary “over the beach” type power projection efforts in even moderately non-permissive environment is beyond the capability of the UK’s forces. And for commando action fast-in/fast-out with helicopters launched from Type 45 are lower profile, cheaper, and faster. So I don’t see fast jet/helicopter ops in the future for CVF.
Sorry – but I disagree – cant we indeed! Thought that was exactly what I and a whole lot of others did in 2000?? Op Palliser if your interested – ever heard of Sierra Leon?? Made it work then, and with a CVS on steroids, which is what under CEPP the QE’s will evolve to be, we will be a whole LOT more capable in future years. I for one very much look forward to that day, and as a true Brit will watch with pride when in not so very long QE, as first of class, parts the waters of the Clyde. For the record I am neither Navy or RAF – so definitely dont have any single service interest, or axe to grind, just believe that if any of us have a future we better start thinking ‘Purple’ whether we like it or not – and just make the whole thing work.
Pongogloim still releaved the carriers didnt get cancelled in the sdsr,i like dr fox,he seems to back the case for the carriers,hopefully next month when LB 03 gets moved to rosyth the ACA will update there web cam so we can start to watch the construction progress,what a huge airfix kit!
I think Serge puts things neatly in perspective. Just under a year ago CVF looked in real danger of being cancelled outright, despite the fact that steel had been cut, large sums expended and a huge amount of work put into plans and design. As soon as he was elected Cameron made it very obvious that he had little interest or knowledge of Defence, despite his constant protestation that he was ‘passionate about our Forces’ Osborne even less – to the point of being openly derisory about the Carriers, which he refered to as ‘those things’. Lets give credit where its due. If it hadnt been for Liam Fox plus a very clever contract drawn up between BAE and the previous administration who saw SDR (in contrast to which the current lots SDSR is a pathetic farce) as their defence legacy, and to which CVF was central, the Carriers would have gone. What had been begun of Queen Elizabeth would now either be razor blades or at best recycled into some form of Global Combat Ship someway down the line. Actually this couldnt have happened because the gap would have been too great and the highly skilled workforce that makes up our indiginous ship building industry (still perhaps the finest in the world) would probably also have gone to the wall. At best working in McDonalds, at worst on the dole….:diablo:
PongogloStill dont see how we only get six by 2019, does that mean six total plus the two ‘B’ Type Development jets and the one test ‘C’? or did Admiral Hussain mean six in RN/FAA hands and thus embarked, with the remainder with the RAF? Be interested to know if the 60/40 % split is RAF/FAA is still the brokered deal – if so that would imply a total of 18 in 2019, 12 RAF and 6 FAA?
‘With the latest F35 production plan slots reserved for the UK, and considering the 2-years time between order and delivery, by 2020 the UK should receive a total of 36 fighters, ordered starting from 2013. Due to the 2-years time for delivery, the orders that matter by 2020 are 36, spread from 2013 to 2018.’
Anyone know where this data comes from – is it still current given the delays? Have got to admit though the ‘C’ looks like its coming along just fine, even though I had reservations losing the STOVL’s flexibility, however the range and payload seem to justify the change, and Ive even come round to thinking that with its big wing config its actually turning out to be a great looking jet….:)
PongogloI’m pretty confident that, even in the case that both carriers are converted, things are likely to go on these lines:
2016 – QE launched, without sky jump, and as ready as possible for possible later conversion. HMS Ocean retires shortly after. QE is used to work up expertise, train deck crew and to cover the Commando Carrier/LPH role.
2019 – Prince of Wales is launched, following conversion.
2020 – Prince of Wales hits Carrier Strike IOC with first deployment on board of 6 F35C, as said by admiral Hussain.
2022 – QE hits her first scheduled refit. Catapults and arresting wires fitted if the carriers are both retained and converted.
Agreed. One thing however that does concern me is that with all the talk of ‘Cats and Traps’ there is scarcely any mention at all of JBD’s – to my mind an equally important part of making the whole thing work. Even the updated graphics dont show JBD in fit. At least the US Navy seem to be going full steam ahead ……
PongogloWell I think the navy are playing the long game on this one, they managed to keep both carriers in production in SDSR. Now they are keeping things in play until after 2015 SDSR, they know its insane not to fit out both carriers for CATOBAR operations. Even it is a case of ensuring that one of the carriers is built with as much work done as possible to allow CAT and trap installation, machine spaces partially installed and the troughs and JDB ready – even if they are plated over then its a victory.
Have to say I am now coming to the view that Liger probably got this right all along. Listening to Camerons statement at the time of SDSR it appeared very much that it was QE that was to be delayed in order to fit cats and traps and that POW would be completed only to go straight into reserve or at worst be sold. Having watched in full the NAO review meeting, and in particular the grilling of Admiral Hussain, it is now very apparent that the intent is to complete QE to schedule, with or without traps and cats, even if it means that she will initially come into service as the worlds largest LPH.
For what its worth my money is now on Liger. Queen Elizabeth will come into service fitted ‘for not with’, with POW also completing to schedule around 2019, with EMALS full fit. QE will then receive the full fit at her first scheduled refit sometime 2023? I also believe Dr Fox knew exactly what he was saying when pushed by Ian Davidson, and when he stated very clearly ‘that is our plan’. What he didnt say, but what many in Whitehall have always known, is that it has always been HIS plan, but not always that of all of his cabinet colleagues – George Osborne none the least. In short he has had to play, and is still playing, a very careful game
Pongoglonew pic….
See post 2103 about the debat raging around which carrier gets cats and traps SDSR say QE
Nice pictures of CVF in CATOBAR with interwar style round down on the stern. I notice the graphic shows openings under the sponson, are these for ships boats or even landing craft????
Well apart from that one rather small graphic which appears to be new all they appear to have done is delete any others that still show the ski jump – shame really, I liked the Leaving of Portsmouth’ one, however hopefully it will be back quite soon minus the ‘bump’ on the nose! It is however good to see that unlike the Aircraft Carrier Alliance the RN are finally getting round to updating their site!
Pongoglomore on Ocean/Apache ops….
Looks like the Apache’s have been busier than would at first appear …..
‘Apaches flew 13 such missions totalling a combined 30 sorties by 3 July, said Lt Col Phillip Cook, SO1 of the Joint Helicopter Command’s air manoeuvre planning team.
During this time they engaged regime targets on a total of 39 occasions, using their Lockheed Martin AGM-114 Hellfire laser-guided air-to-surface missiles, unguided rockets and 30mm cannon. Targets included ground vehicles, main battle tanks, vehicle checkpoints, coastal radar sites and patrol boats being used by pro-Gaddafi forces to deploy mines, Cook said’.
as have the Tigers…
‘The Apaches are flown in either a two- or four-aircraft package, with the AAC also having worked in conjunction with French army Eurocopter Tigers flown from the French navy command ship the Tonnerre. They have also received support from RN Westland Lynx HMA8 helicopters and Sea King 7 airborne surveillance and control system aircraft, and from coalition intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance platforms.’
See theyve now got five onboard….
A fifth Apache is also now aboard HMS Ocean, having been transported to the region using a Royal Fleet Auxiliary vessel. The AAC detachment totals almost 90 personnel.
PongogloCHF…..
@Geoff B
And while CVF will never reach the performaces of a US carrier, i believe that the carrier will be perfectly able to work, in the RN, as Fleet and Strike carrier and indeed Commando Carrier to answer to the needs of the moment.
Talking of Commando Carriers (much better more stylish:) than LPH!) this should please Liger. Spotted in Hansard…
20 Jun 2011 : Column 41W
Merlin Helicopters
Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when the RAF Merlin Mark 3 will be transferred to the Royal Navy. [60876]
Mr Robathan: We intend to upgrade and transfer our current fleet of Merlin Mk 3/3a helicopters to the Royal Navy: the first upgraded helicopters will enter service with the Commando Helicopter Force in time to replace the Sea King Mk 4 helicopters, which are planned to be withdrawn from service in 2016.
PongogloYes – but this for real – and I havent seen Rafale carry anything close! Pics please??
Sign In
