Many thanks to all who replied. Agreed with the thinking needed sometimes to reveal what the Discovery search engine holds.
Spoke to AHB and they have confirmed they are not holding the ORB I seek.
So its back to Kew and a rethink on the question to ask methinks.
Many thanks Sabrejet – that is perfect. I will contact the custodians and see if we can’t get copies.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/181958637269
GR7 drop tank with Russian Stencilling (“detonators invested”)!
Hmmm…never seen a Harrier drop tank…but have seen Russian FAB-250 air dropped bombs…and that thing is the spitting image of one…the blue ring around the nose denotes inert/drill round. I hope.
If either you or the finder has not done so, I would strongly recommend you report this to the Receiver of Wreck.
And whilst the find isn’t on the same scale as this chap’s actions, this is the kind of result. Diver jailed for failing to declare finds.
Good business is nothing more than risk management.
Many will be unaware, but for the previous 18-24 months (or thereabouts) there has been a Small Claims track at the High Court that deals with intellectual property. There is a cap at (currently) £10k on claims, but for most photographers/illustrators/authors this is adequate. Crucially, the costs either side can claim are strictly capped…meaning if you claim and lose the other party cannot claim legal costs that typically might equate to having to sell your home when the lawyers present their bill.
The Small Claims track at the High Court has opened up access to justice for small creators. I should add that if you are finding your images used without permission the entire process is a bit legalese, but accessible to a non-legal like me.
An example of the Small Claims track in action, with an aviation theme (Goodwin Sands Dornier), can be read here:-
So using images without permission is not recommended as the risk may well outweigh the benefits.
Having said all that, there is no way I would use an internet forum to seek advice on this. The only advice I trust these days is paid for and that is what I would recommend in this case.
He was a bit hard on aircraft having bent Wildcats JV596, JV699 and JV751 during his flying career.
Thanks Ross – good stuff.
I’m not sure the loss of JV751 was down to him…apparently the steam catapult malfunctioned whilst he was in the cockpit with the engine at idle…
Thanks chaps – most useful and much appreciated.
Because 75m is deep for diving? Hence the cost of recovery would be extravagant.
Whilst it does depend on skills and experience, for most a 75m is a very significant dive indeed.
Surely there is an argument to recover something like the JU88 much much more cheaply, by cutting it up on the sea bed and lifting in small sections.
The cost of putting a diver to work safely on the seabed will be dictated by many factors and is variable, but expect a four figure bill per day just to put the diver in the water. Some sites might only see a 20 minute window of opportunity for work every 12 hours. The risk assessment would probably dictate surface supply and comms/video feed. Plus the cost of cutting equipment or other tools. Any recovery will require a charter vessel capable of supporting both diving operations & lifting.
There are no short-cuts, and its expensive.
Many Thanks for all the above reply’s and for Simon Brown for giving me the pros and cons of a possible dive.
So it sounds as if it could be dived but would be a major challenge, as previous reply’s have stated the whereabouts of the 6 swordfish would be a challenge in itself. but the Aircraft were just of Calais when they were attacked by the Luftwaffe and Kingsmarine.
Of all the places in the English Channel, the Straits of Dover are some of the most challenging; tidal streams, extended periods of restricted/no visibility and the natural pinch point squeezing shipping into a narrow area. I’m afraid to say the chances of finding anything have not improved…
Except for the apparently forgotten but very important fact that since the majority of the aircrew involved in this tragic exercise died these wrecks would rightly be regarded as war graves.
I am sure more knowing forum members than I can put you right on whether a war grave can knowingly be recovered, improved technology or not.
Agreed. Which is why underwater photography or videography, with its non-invasive approach, is the perfect medium. Everything can remain in-situ.
With today’s technology, anything can be reproduced, or are you really suggesting that the industry that took men to the moon is incapable of replicating 1930s technology?
I know of one company that reverse engineered a Deltic Diesel engine – including the block – using 3D scanning tools and CAD software.
The desire and (critically) the money would all it take to do likewise with any engine block or component.
Again im not a diver so wouldn’t know if it could be attempted depth etc, also the Laws on a dive of this type could possibly open up a big can of worms legally.(also the very slightly busy shipping lanes would cause havoc.)
The challenges begin way before getting in the water. Sidescan sonar can find a fleck of fly crap on the seabed, but just towing a sonar around a random area is just a good way to burn diesel and find nothing. Once found, accurately dropping a line on a small target is a skill and the greater the depth of water the harder it is to miss. I spent 10 minutes following a anchor drag line looking for a submarine in 45m of water…I couldn’t find the sub but had swum pretty much the entire length of the submarine before I realised it was less than 10m from my right shoulder…now consider the size of a radial engine compared to a sub…visibility is severely restricted and just finding the target is a challenge.
Depth also increases the complexity of the dive. Breathing normal air at pressure (5 bar at 40m) makes the nitrogen content of air narcotic and reactions are dulled/slowed…adding helium into the mix reduces the narcotic effect but pushes the cost way up, as well as adding to the time spent decompressing before surfacing…Then there is the issue of the shipping lanes and no diver wishes to be run down by a container vessel. Bottom trawling may well have moved/trashed the remains…
Weather and tidal windows add to the complexity and its not unusual to wait weeks for everything to line up.
So yes, anything can be dived. Would it be easy? No…but if you have a rough idea about where to look then we can consider it as a project.
A few years ago I photographed EOD work at Cape Wrath. The shell in question was strapped with a demolition pack, and when initiated did this:-
It was a smoke or illumination round full of phosphorus.
I dived this aircraft a while back, in very very dirty water. I couldn’t photograph anything in soup, so spent time looking around and working from memory there wasn’t much left that could id this site without being in breach of the Protected Place status this aircraft enjoys under Protection of Military Remains Act.
I think it is important to appreciate that wrecks like this are frequently visited by ‘sport’ divers and although there are strict regulations regarding the removal of items from wreckage we all know it happens.
Divers do indeed visit wrecks, and – to my utter regret – there has been a long tradition of recovering cargo and fittings. As long as whatever is recovered from a shipwreck and are reported to the Receiver of Wrecks then the practice is lawful. There are some caveats to that; any protected wreck won’t be open to divers/diving in general and visiting without a permit is not on, let alone recovering anything.
However, as many here will be aware of, all military aircraft fall under Protection of Military Remains Act and disturbing the site in any way is illegal. This piece of legislation is not widely known in the sport diving community, but I’m working on that…
A few years ago I was invited to document HMS Royal Oak. This battleship was torpedoed at anchor in 1939 and is now a Controlled Site under PRMA. Seeing a wreck that is for the most part complete with fixtures, fittings, ammunition, compasses etc was an utter revelation. From that point on I sought to dive intact wrecks that were not picked over by fellow divers – the majority simply not realising what they were missing out on. A few of the Royal Oak images are here.
In the end, I had to travel to Aland in the Baltic to find intact wrecks. Aland has completely different laws regarding salvage and the wrecks are all the better for it.
Sorry for digressing.