arthuroFrom Olybrius on mp.net :
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?137433-Rafale-News/page178
the Swiss Federal Council: those who should decide tomorrow (or December 7):
-Micheline Calmy-Rey (president, french-speaking)
-Simonetta Sommaruga (italian-speaking)
-Doris Leuthard (german-speaking)
-Didier Burkhalter(german-speaking)
-Johann N. Schneider-Ammann (german-speaking)
-Eveline Widmer-Schlumpf (german/italian-speaking)
-Ueli Maurer (defence minister, german-speaking)
-Corina Casanova (chancellor, speaks Romansh, German, French and Italian)What we know:
-After the technical evaluation, Armasuisse recommend Rafale.
-Ueli maurer is said to favor the Gripen.
-France may have a problem with Doris Leuthard, Sarkozy promised her, when she was president, to associate Switzerland to the G20 process. Not only he did not, but his statements at the end of g20 ,about Switzerland being an “off-the-law” state, shocked…
arthuroWriting from a smartphone i cannot be too long but just one prcision for mralaya : the quoted article is not my theory but a quote from dsi magazine which quote directly ltcl grandclaudon. Please someone post the actual link or article :). Regards all
arthuroI agree “vanilla” is certainly too strong (of course there are some software developments) but it is still mention to keep the PS-05 back end. The point is that is not an entirely new radar and compromises were made to make it available in a reasonable time frame for exports markets.
Then every major european nations had aesa demonstrator programs some of which flew onboard fighter jets (as early as 2003 for the rafale for instance) so bringing this argument of demonstrator program is hardly a differentiator. There were some inflows of money ok, but that was quite negligible compared to what is needed to developed a frontline operational aesa radar.
So that doesn’t neglect the fact that with an official support to develop a first line aesa from 2006 (and we talk of hundreds of millions euros) the rbe2 aesa as an edge in this regard. With a very probable second significant inflow of money to support new developments this “differentiator” is likely to remain.
arthuroA big difference that was exposed to me about two years ago by a rafale pilot (for the celebration of a century of french aeronautic in paris) who attended red flag along with the mki is sensor integration/fusion.
While russian jets are impressive the level of integration and fusion of all sensors is totally different and the weapon system architecture is more simple. The result is that russian jets are more work intensive and you don’t enjoy the god eye view of the battle field. This is true even without link 16 according to him. So in a complex environment it is at a disadvantage.
In a one on one scenario or with a precise focus planned objective the russian jet can be deadly for sure.
Another anecdote from a rafale pilot from Paris airshow 2009 about russian jets he told me that while more “rustic” (less sophisticated) one should not overlook them as what is more “rustic”/simple can work fine when properly used.
arthuroI don’t think so,
for recent exports :
F18SH to australia
F15 to Korea and Singapore and Israel
SU-30 to india, malaysia, algeria and venezuela
Typhoon to SA and austria
Besides you have to distinguish number vs value. Just like when airbus and boeing exports more single aisle airliners but their relative value in the turnover is lower.
I also don’t think also that a mirage 2000 NG would have won the original MRCA. the failure was not due to the aircraft directly as the IAF was interested but the lobbying of other competitors to indian politics and an obscure and slow decision process.
In the end I think the argument of rafale exporting because of mirage 2000 or gripen NG exporting because of gripen C/D is very subjective and a matter of opinion. You can find plenty of this kind of arguments like the rafale is combat proven, it is ordered etc but in the end it is not a decisive argument and in fact more a rhetorical one. It weight little compared to offset, ToT, lobbying or corruption. I think it is more a convenient excuse to reject a competitor when you have made a choice.
arthuroAspis,
I think it is a cliché for the price of the weapons. It is true in sense but you have to look at it more closely to be relevant in your analysis. OK there is the expensive (but unmatched in its category) Hammer/AASM. There is the SCALP but again quite unique with the TAURUS and there I doubt a smaller american JASSM (half the military load) would be cheap as well.
But you can use GBU-12, 49, 22, 24 if you want to diminish the costs its also compatible with the rafale.
In the end it might be more expensive but you get some capabilities that doesn’t necessarily exist (MICA IR, HAMMER, heavy recce AEROS pod…) and are perhaps worth the cost.
About price the issue is two fold in my opinion :
1) The exchange rate of the Euro/dollar. As said by dassault a rafale costs less than a SH but its price is higher due to the unfavorable exchange rate.
2) The price of the spare parts (exchange rate and less economy of scale than american competitors)
arthuroExercice “Gascogne” 3
Armee de l’Air , August 24
On August 23, 2010 began the third “Gascogne” exercice which will take place in the north-eastern France until next Friday.
This exercise aims to train crew on the entire spectrum of missions (conventional assault,penetration, etc.) […]
Among the Air Force air assets deployed were present: Rafale from Saint-Dizier (Squadron 1 / 7 “Provence” and 1 / 91 “Gascogne”), the Mirage2000D from Nancy, Mirage 2000N from Luxeuil and Istres, Mirage F1CR from Reims, Mirage 2000-5 and Alphajets from Dijon, Mirage RDI from Cambrai and finally AWACS from Avord.
[…]
The “Gascogne” 03 exercise allows, among others, the units to prepare for the next exercises as “Minotaur” to be held in Djibouti and “Cruzex” in Brazil.
arthuroCombat aircraft : to be continued
Avia News.ch, August 26
[…]
Consequences: The two main losers in this series are our industry and jobs! Indeed, if the cost of a fighter plane is expensive, the returns in matter of “Offsets” were significantly higher and would have revitalized our manufacturing industry and the employment at the same time!Competitors:
The three manufacturer which will meet again in a few years does not comment on this “no choice”!
By cons, deception should probably rely on the side of Dassault which would certainly have won the contract with its Rafale. For purists, the version proposed was the Rafale-04T with two more powerful engines, the wiring for the METEOR missile, the XF Damocles pod and the new IDM architecture. But this is only a postponement for Dassault.
On Saab’s side, one should breathe a little, because it will help to complete the Swedish version of the Gripen E/F (NG), whose development is not yet completed, and to find a buyer with the Swedish Air Force which , indeed, must order the Gripen E/F before 2015! Saab will be able to introduce its new generation aircraft with a better light!
EADS will be able to finalize its Eurofighter with an E-scan AESA “Double-Cyclic” radar and will likely try to reduce the maintenance costs of the aircraft as promised this summer to our Economy Minister Doris Leuthard at the ILA Berlin.
[…]
Update : Only 50% of the evaluation credits has been used . The three competitors have announced their intention to maintain the offers, it will be adapted according to the technical development of the aircrafts.
http://psk.blog.24heures.ch/archive/2010/08/26/avion-de-combat-la-suite-au-prochain-episode.html
arthuroSAR modes with GPS coordinates extraction is already operational on the RBE2 PESA since the F3 standard so the AESA will have this mode. All rafales are F3 now except the stored rafale Mf1. GMTI is a UAE requirement.
arthuroFrom a greek mirage 2000 pilot on F16.net
Would you agree with these statements of a former HAF fighter pilot?
<>
This true.
>>With good pilots on both sides, they are probably equal in dogfight>>
This is wrong. A good pilot in an M2K will kill a good pilot in an F-16 9 out of 10 times (1 provided for launch failure).
I served in an M2K fighter squadron in HAF. We analyzed tactics and combat scores against HAF F-16 squadrons all the time.
The M2Ks higher INSTANTANEOUS turn rate gives it an advantage during the first pass. The F-16 cannot outturn the Mirage. It has to climb in hopes of avoiding the lock. A good M2K pilot will end it right there (the Magic 2 is a better IR weapon than the AIM-9L/M).
A rookie in the M2K, however, will probably lose the F-16’s climb. The more powerful viper will escape and will then gain the advantage because of 1) Altitude 2) Higher SUSTAINABLE turn rate.
As for turn rates, altitude differences are purely theoretical and in practice make no difference EXCEPT for sea level manuevers where the more powerful Viper starts gaining the advantage.
Would you agree with the statement that F-16 is a better choice for multi role missions than Mirage 2000 ?
Absolutely. The M2K is a multi-role fighter also, but its performance varies greatly among roles – whereas the Viper performs almost all missions at a very satisfactory level.
HAF M2Ks are specialized. 331’s (where I served) primary role is now TASMO (naval strike with AM-39 Exocet) and 332’s primary role will become Deep Strike (with SCALP EG). CAP & Air Supremacy are their secondary roles.
The F-16 sqdns OTOH undertake a number of roles such as SEAD, CAP, CAS, and numerous specialized strike missions (enemy AFBs, enemy C&C centers etc). The Viper is a much more volatile weapons system
mirage 2000 vs F16 video (HUD dogfight) :
arthuropdf news from St Dizier AFB. A part is dedicated to ATLC. Nothing really new.
According to F22 pilots the rafale is the most chalenging aircraft they have encountered in dogfights (p11).
http://www.ba113.air.defense.gouv.fr/images/ECHO_113/echo_110.pdf
arthuroreduce RCS storage with stealth external bays is a very likely option for the rafale F4 if I recall well on top of other rcs reduction that will be implemented on the stealth rafale demonstrator. Still unclear what path is going to be chosen. Most probably according to A&C, Sweetman or DSI and the future Spectra devloment it will be linked to AC.
arthuroI don’t beleive there is any substantial parts of the rafale manufactured abroad exept low tech or widespread elements on the markets. Nothing that can pose a serious threat on the rafale. And especially on sensible items like spectra. I am pretty confident that each sipplier was selected stringently to make the rafale free from external pressure and technology.
The F22 uses french high performance oil (don’t remember the company) and battery from SAFT just to take an example. Should we conclude that the F22 is under the threat of french restrictions ?
One could argue that some elements of the composite materials are imorted and this could be regarded as a threat…If you follow this logic there is no end. The idea is that you can secure the core technology and the actual performances. If you import some generic chips because there is a lot of supplier and you can find alternate way to procure it then there is no problem.
arthuro+1 with MSphere
I can aknowledge I am not a specialist on AESA but do you really beleive that you are a reference on AESA ? All your argumnts are just on the surface and I don’t see any indepth analysis from you apart a trolling rent. I would love to see jackjack science to have alaugh. And funny that the UAE with their strong performances requirements still go for the rafale if we believe you. Investing about 10Billions for its new frontline jet is a stamp of confidence for such strategical deal and go beyhond political agreements.
arthuroNo jackjack you are living your own personal and ridiculous delirium and is totally out of the reality. The fact that the UAE wants to speed up some developments does not mean that the rafale is lacking somewhere. When the admiral say that Spectra works very well you of course eludes it as you are brainwashed against anythin french. They are just used to fund a series of improvements for their own needs.
You are just a troll whose only hobby is to bash anything french. You are not even a true air enthusiast. At least Loke, sign; obligatory have something positive to talk for and are respectable posters. Your motives on this forum are more than suspects.
Here is a report from an article I summed up in december 2008
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=86497&page=3
I’ve just read the Air&cosmos n°2150 (5 december) which deals with AESA radars.
Of course there is an article about the RBE2 AESA.
Some facts from an interview with Gérard Christmann, Thales vice president in charge of Electronic Warfare solutions.
-The searched volume is increased by a factor 3 to 4 against the PESA RBE2
-tracking range is increased by 30% to 50%
-The RBE2 AESA is very similar to the APG-79 in terms of technology and maturity.
-The power processing has been dramatically increased with 4 new calculators.
-Power supply has an average power of 10kW. Which is an increase with previous PESA RBE2.
-The AESA RBE2 will allow sub-metric SAR images.
-The ability to jamm or transmit datas thanks to this new radar is closely considered but not funded for the moment.
-First AESA rafale should be delivered at the very beginning of 2011 (from the current batch). It will also equip the next batch of rafale which is expected to be ordered soon: beginning of 2009 for 60 airframes.
-The Swiss were able to see the gain of performance of this new radar as they could compare to the PESA RBE2. This evaluation of the AESA antenna by the swiss was a success.
-4 radar prototypes are used for trials-1 or 2 will be affected for exports trials. one is tested on the B301 an the other one is tested on the mirage 2000 B501 from the CEV.
-final software validation is expected for the first quarter of year 2010.
-This radar could be licensed in India or Brazil.
-Full ToT is possible.I forgot : the french government will garanty that a minimum of 11 RBE2 AESA radars will be produced each year for the next batch.
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