what do you expect him to say

if the rafale did not perform well against the SH blck 2 in BVR? I expect him to say nothing or vaunt SH capability or/and to focus about cooperation rather than discussing aircraft capability. As simple as that. As I said you are not ready psychologically to make any concessions so it is not really interesting to have your opinion.
I just prefer a USN admiral and rafale pilot opinion to yours.

Be honest if the story was the other way round you would have jumped on it. So obvious.

US Navy view :]

Truman, French carrier practice joint air ops

NavyTimes , june 8

Onboard the USS Harry S. Truman — A brace of French Navy Rafales flying from the Charles de Gaulle carrier roared down to perform touch-and-go landings on the vast deck of this Nimitz class carrier, in a show of interoperability between the two navies.

The cross-deck operations included a Rafale landing on the U.S. carrier June 4, being taken down in one of the maintenance hangars and having one of its engines removed and refitted, U.S. Rear Adm. Patrick Driscoll told visitors Tuesday. “This is another brick in interoperability,” he said.

The Rafale engine refit was a proof of concept intended to test the technical details of moving the French strike fighter around and below deck in the precise choreography of carrier operations, Driscoll said. The tools needed for the engine exercise were sent over from the Charles de Gaulle.

The two initial low passes and six touch-and-go landings were “the basics of naval interoperability,” said Rear Adm. Henri Bobin, commander of the French Fleet Air Arm.

Such interoperability could serve in emergencies, where a Rafale might need a safe haven at sea, he said.

The French Fleet Air Arm invited the Truman to take part in celebrations to mark the 100th anniversary of the service. To underline the military-to-military cooperation, the U.S. carrier docked at Marseille on June 8 as part of the anniversary events.

Meanwhile, F/A-18E/F Super Hornets, practiced touch-and-go landings on the Charles de Gaulle, which is sailing nearby as the French carrier undergoes qualification after a 15-month drydock for refit of its nuclear propulsion system.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy was due to visit the French carrier June 10, with Defense Minister Hervé Morin.

As part of the American and French carriers’ joint exercises, Super Hornets and Rafales flew “intercepts,” to pit their systems against each other and diversify flying training of the pilots.

“The Rafale is a very capable aircraft,” Driscoll said.

The American pilots also took part in close-air support training exercises with British and French forward air observers at Canjuers, the French Army training base in the dry, scrubby countryside behind Toulon, Bobin said.

Although NATO procedures in English is the common standard among allied forces, the training with the British and French forces allows the American pilots to familiarize themselves with different accents, which may be the ones that will call for support of their ground troops in Afghanistan, Driscoll said.

“Interoperability is all,” said Nick Witney, senior fellow at think tank European Council for Foreign Relations. “It is certainly a good thing to take the opportunity to reinforce interoperability.”

The engine exercise on the Truman was representative of cross-deck operations prepared in advance, though it was not in the same sort of category as arming, refueling and turning round an allied aircraft between missions. Other operations might include repairing damaged equipment or recalibrating the radar, which would require a higher level of technical interoperability, he said.

In terms of interoperability, the French carrier operates three E2C Hawkeye airborne radar aircraft. These have been progressively upgraded to be compatible with those operating on the Truman, including the eight-bladed propeller, which has proved more reliable than the previous four-bladed version, Bobin said.

Northrop Grumman was due to make a presentation to French officials of the Hawkeye 2000 on June 12 as a potential replacement for the present Hawkeye E-2C. The 2000 version has a new mission computer and a glass cockpit.

The Charles de Gaulle also was “more compatible” with U.S. carriers as its steam catapult launch system aligned it more closely to American ships. The French Foch and Clemenceau carriers used a disposable catapult sling which was jettisoned with each launch.

The Truman is headed to join the 6th Fleet sailing off the Pakistan coast, in the Indian Ocean, where its F/A-18s will support troops in Afghanistan. On the way, three of the destroyers in the carrier group will peel off to carry out anti-piracy patrols off the Somali coast.

Cooperation at the military level has always been good, even when political relations between Paris and Washington were tense over the Iraq war, Bobin said. The improved trans-Atlantic links provided a warmer backdrop for cooperation.

A French pilot on exchange with the U.S. Navy flew an F/A-18C Hornet while his American counterpart flies a Super Etendard on the Charles de Gaulle. Those were less-advanced versions of the respective aircraft fleets.

The cross-deck cooperation was symbolic of the ambitions of Sarkozy in bringing France fully back into NATO, Witney said.
[…]

radar size and range doesn’t really matter as long as the range is adequate for the missiles to be used in all its domain.
Modern RWR receiver will pick the emissions at least twice or three the detecting range of an opposing aircraft as shown in greece (rafale F1 vs F16 block 52) 10 years ago.

the RBE2 AESA will already be the most powerful fighter radar in europe for the years to come. and even more than a decade if you take the GaN version and I would dare to say probably for most of the rest of its operational life. Once the Typhoon or the gripen gets their Gas radar I don’t expect them to have a new radar GaN before a very long time.

Only the Typhoon can hope to have a more powerful radar. The gripen with a similar radar but with a lower energy output due to its single engine will be certainly weaker.

Radar range is not everything : remember that in ATLC a mica was shot with spectra only and the rafale coupled with AASM regularly performs SEAD. That is just to tell you how vulnerable can be a radar irradiating large volumes.

Last but not least the rafale F3 was recently opposed to the Typhoon and the SH block2 in BVR. The rafale did better despite having a shorter range radar and not even an AESA against the SH block 2.

Other example : the Garuda exercise. Mirage 2000-5 performed well in the BVR role against the mki despite having a shorter range radar.

Well It is impossible to make a definitive conclusion with so few elements but to ad fuel in the debate one has to recall the Mystère XX flying test bed for the carbone EW pod (same tech than spectra) earlier this decade.

As reported by air et cosmos the not stealth at all Mystère XX managed to remain totally undetected during MaceX NATO ground to air exercise. And that was against some of the most modern SAM radars while flying at very close range even vertically to the radar.

see this other available source (very complete) :

Radar revolution: the arrival of gallium nitride components opens up new applications for radars, including jamming and telecomm
By Jean Dupont | Interavia Business & Technology – Summer, 2007

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The active array antenna has virtually taken over the radar market–having won a berth on every new fighter or surveillance aircraft programme launched over the past 10 years. Even earlier programmes, such as the Rafale, Gripen, Typhoon or MiG-35 are preparing for the transition to active-array technology. The pressure do to so has been stepped up following the first US export sales of aircraft equipped with active-array radars–F-15s to Singapore in 2005, followed by Australia’s recent order for the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.

Weapons labs around the globe, however, are already gearing up for the next generation–antenna with the power and bandwith to perform offensive jamming and communications in addition to the radar function, and with a sufficiently compact and modular design to be housed not only in the nose of the fighter aircraft but also in conformal units elsewhere on the airframe surface.

The trigger for this revolution is a semiconductor material called gallium nitride (GaN), which, like the gallium arsenide (GaAs) used in current active antennas, is composed of elements from columns 3 and 5 of the periodic table and can be used to produce high frequency amplifiers.

The emergence of GaN from the laboratory has been delayed by epitaxy issues–growth of the semi-conductor layer on the silicon (Si) substrate, or silicon carbide (SIC) in the case of cutting-edge military applications. GaN and the substrate are made of crystals with different interatomic distances, hence the difficulty in assembling the two materials at a microscopic scale. The largest slices of high-performance GaN that have been obtained to date have a diameter of three inches, compared with six inches for GaAs and up to twelve inches for silicon. The size of the slice determines the number of chips that the machine can produce in a single pass.

GaN is clearly destined to remain expensive and its utilisation unlikely to expand beyond a limited number of applications, particularly since suppliers of SiC substrates are themselves limited. This situation could change, however, as GaN slices are expected to increase to four inches in the near future, and the arrival of new players should help to drive prices down, predicts Dominique Pons who heads the Alcatel Lucent/Thales III-V Lab. (The name reflects the columns of the periodic table mentioned above.) In any case, the intrinsic qualities of GaN have convinced the US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (Darpa) to invest heavily–tens of millions of dollars per year–in the technology.

The involvement of telecommunications giant Alcatel Lucent reflects the inherent duality of the technology–GaAs components are widely used in cell phones. Though power applications, such as radar, are largely confined to the military and space sectors, they are gradually finding their way into the civil domain. In the 1990s, EADS and Thales formed a joint company, United Monolithic Semiconductors (UMS), to produce GaAs chips and monolithic microwave integrated circuits (MMICs) for their new-generation radars.

Series production

UMS launched series production of MMICs for S- and C-band radars at the beginning of this decade, followed more recently by X-band radars like the active-array RBE2 AA that will equip the Rafale starting in 2012. On the civil side, lead times between technology incubation and application are much shorter, and the company has managed to find GaAs applications in a number of professional or top-end civil markets, such as wireless telecom infrastructures and anti-collision radars for cars.

In this way the military potential of GaAs has opened up an industrial capability that has found market openings in Europe … the same openings that GaN will be able to exploit in its turn. Agreements are already in place with NXP (ex-Philips Semiconductors), explains Thierry Laboureau, UMS sales and marketing director, to develop power components for base stations for third- and fourth-generation cell phone networks and for WiMax base stations for mobile internet users. Ultimately, once prices have come down far enough, GaN could conceivably make its way into the kitchen, replacing the magnetron in the micro-wave oven.

However, these longer-term commercial perspectives will not be enough to cover the investment required to launch foundry operations. Nor is there any prospect of procuring components for military applications from the US or Japan–both countries have already placed an embargo on GaAs circuits, and there is no reason for them to be any more flexible concerning GaN. This explains why the defence procurement authorities in France and Germany are both helping to support industrial research efforts.

According to Dominique Pons, the III-V Lab should produce its first X-band or wide-band GaN MMICs this year. Following validation and industrialisation by UMS, series production should get under way by 2009.

EDA funding

GaN is also one of the very first research areas to receive funding from the European Defence Agency (EDA) under a 40 million [euro] programme called Korrigan that brings together 23 companies and laboratories in seven countries to accelerate the development of one or more European GaN foundries with associated supply chain by 2009. The programme leader is Thales Airborne Systems. Other participants include EADS, Selex Sistemi Integrati, Saab Ericsson and BAE Insyte. Their role initially is to define requirements for the foundries, before becoming directly involved, from 2008 onwards, in integrating the microchips into a variety of specialised modules covering a range of land-based and airborne radar applications, as well as self-protection or offensive jammers.

In this way, explains Thales Airborne Systems technical director Pierre Fossier, it should be possible to launch the first system applications in 2010. In France, one of the leading candidates for the new technology is the offensive jammer, a capacity that the French Air Force has had its eyes on for several years, and which has already given rise to the Carbone airborne demonstrator. The performance of the system attracted a lot of attention at NATO’s Mace X electronic warfare exercise in the year 2000.

The DGA procurement branch of the French MoD is continuing to provide limited funding for exploratory work by Thales while awaiting for national budgets to kick in to complete development. GaN would allow for a reduction in the size of the jammer, potentially clearing the way for integration into a combat aircraft. One of the first European acquisition programmes to integrate GaN technology could well be the Maritime Airborne Surveillance and Control (MASC) programme to replace Royal Navy Sea King Mk7 airborne surveillance helicopters, as required for the future CVF aircraft carriers. The three candidates for this mission are the Hawkeye aircraft, the EH-101 helicopter and the tiltwing V-22, though the Hawkeye would appear to be ruled out by the absence of a catapult in the current CVF definition. Both the other candidates would require a compact and powerful radar to meet missions requirements. The potential advantages of a GaN radar in this context have prompted the British MoD to finance some upstream development work in preparation for a programme launch in the 2009 timeframe–the same year that the first European GaN modules are scheduled to come off the production line.

Rafale lead

As far as Europe’s combat aircraft programmes are concerned, the Rafale seems to have established a lead over Typhoon and Gripen in the race to integrate an active array antenna. This is primarily because–unlike its competitors–the transition to active-array technology on the Rafale’s electronically scanned RBE2 was planned from the outset, avoiding the need for the more extensive (and expensive) modifications required on the mechanical antennas of the Typhoon and Gripen. The increase in range that the new technology will bring is deemed essential if the aircraft is to fully exploit the potential of the future ramjet-powered Meteor missile, due to enter service in the early years of the next decade. Without it, pilots will rely on target designation from another platform to strike targets at the limits of the Meteor envelope.

All aircraft will benefit from the collaborative work accomplished under the trinational Airborne Multirole Solid State Active Array Radar (AMSAR) programme, which was launched in 1993 to develop a European capability in GaAs power devices and subsequently gave rise to UMS (EADS/Thales). Work under AMSAR is currently focused on beam forming through computation. The goal is to cancel reception in jammed sectors and improve rejection of parasitic ground echos, though at the cost of a more complex antenna architecture.

In France, Thales launched its own active antenna radar demonstrator programme in the late 1990s incorporating US components. The resulting mockup was tested at the CEV flight test centre in 2002 on a Mystere XX test bed, and the following year on Rafale. In February 2004, the French MoD’s DGA procurement branch awarded 85 million [euro] under the DRAMA programme to develop a prototype active-module radar representative of an operational system.

Thales is currently working on its first DRAMA antenna featuring UMS components. The antenna is scheduled to be delivered to the CEV test centre in midyear for flight testing on the Mystere XX and Mirage 2000 through 2009. The objective is to complete qualification of the new radar by 2009 and deliver two prototypes to Dassault the following year for integration into the aircraft and validation of the full standard. The first two production radars are currently scheduled for delivery in 2011; they will equip the last two Rafales in the current production batch. Half of the 400 million [euro] in funding for the Rafale “Roadmap”–the development of additional capabilities beyond the F3 standard–has been earmarked for the introduction of an active array antenna on the RBE2. This will involve an array of around 1,000 GaAs transmit/receive modules to replace the existing passive scanning antenna and the travelling wave tube (TWT) on the transmitter. The goal is to have the resulting AA version of the RBE2 ready for series production to equip Rafales delivered from 2012 under the next multi-year order, which is expected to be signed in early 2009.
According to Thales, the RBE2 AA will offer 50% greater range than the current RBE2 and a huge increase in reliability–major overhaul every 7-10 years, compared with a current TWT service life of around 100 hours. It will also be possible to generate SAR images in air-to-ground mode with 1 m resolution or better, and to detect at long range low-reflection airborne targets, including stealthy UAVs and UCAVs.

No state funding has yet been made available to fund the active-array transition for Typhoon and Gripen. Euroradar (Selex SAS/EADS/Galileo Avionica/Indra) launched its own Caesar demonstrator programme for Typhoon in 2003. The demonstrator made its first flight on a BAC 1-11 testbed in February 2006. Caesar combines the back end from the existing Captor with an antenna partially featuring active GaAs modules from UMS (Germany) and Filtronic (UK). Captor air-to-air modes have been partially adapted to the new antenna. Caesar was flight tested on a Typhoon development aircraft (DA5) in May.

Industry is hopeful of an order as part of the Tranche 3 batch of Eurofighters, currently due to be ordered in 2009 for delivery starting in 2012. According to industry officials, the operating cost gains due to improved reliability would compensate for the extra cost due to development of the new antenna.

In Sweden, Saab Microwave Systems (the former Ericsson) is following a similar path, also without government funding. Saab, which hopes to start flight demonstrations this summer, aims to have an active antenna radar on Gripen by 2015, slightly later than the offer European programmes but with more ambitious technology goals. The antenna for its so-called Not Only Radar (NORA) concept would be mounted on a vertical axis allowing the scan angle (120[degrees] in pure electronic mode) to be extended to 200[degrees]. Nora would also offer jamming and data link functions, similar to what the Americans are testing today on the F-22’s APG-77.

RELATED ARTICLE: Multifunction radars.

Much of the potential offered by GaN can be seen today with GaAs. It is already possible to produce very-high-bandwidth medium-power amplifiers for self-protection jammers covering the entire upper portion of the the electronic warfare spectrum (618-GHz). Thanks to a major technology investment, industry can now produce more powerful amplifiers, delivering around 10W at the high efficiency levels (around 50%) required for airborne X-band (8-12GHz) radar applications. In doing so, however, bandwidth has dropped to around 10% of the operating frequency. The experts predict that, within a relatively short timeframe, it will be possible to produce still more powerful GaN amplifiers … with at least twice the bandwidth. The US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (Darpa) is targeting a six-fold increase in power compared with existing GaAs modules.

In Europe, the Korrigan project (see main article) aims to develop X-band power amplifiers in excess of 20W (i.e. suitable for radar and long-distance telecom applications) and with a bandwidth of around 2GHz, sufficient to jam other transmitters in the same frequency band.

In theory, modules with twice as much power could be used to produce radars with twice as much power, i.e. twice the range. However, engineers could well select another avenue, initially at least, since the useful range of a radar is related to the range of the weapons that it is being used to control. On the other hand, if the power of GaN is used to trim the number of modules, this means that the size of the antenna–and the nose section of the aircraft–can be significantly reduced, with an obvious payoff in terms of aerodynamics and stealth. The aircraft’s stealth characteristics would be further improved by the fact that, by sharing the same antenna for radar, jamming and communications functions, there would be a reduction in the number of reflectors for enemy radars.

Another consequence of the smaller antenna is on increase in beam width. The tradeoff is a slight loss of resolution, but this is not a major problem in air-to-air situations where missiles have their own active seekers that can compensate for shortcomings in target designation. In air-to-ground modes, however, a wider beam enables a given area to be covered more quickly to establish cartography. Also, in jamming mode, the aiming accuracy in relation to a hostile transmitter would be less demanding.

The combination of all these modes (radar, communications jamming) on a GaAs radar is also possible. In the US, trials have been performed using the Northrop Grumman APG-77 radar on the F-22 and the Raytheon APG-79 on the F/A-18E/F Block 2. However, local media reports have highlighted the limits of what can be achieved. First-generation APG-77s reached their temperature limits already in radar mode. This problem seems to have been resolved on more recent versions, but in jamming mode the APG-77 cannot transmit for more than one second without damaging the radar. Also, experts have commented that jamming is effective over a frequency band that is too narrow to effectively counter all airborne threats.

This helps to explain why the US, despite their lead in GaAs technology, is currently accelerating research into a future alternative.

RELATED ARTICLE: Power plus bandwith.

The intrinsic properties of gallium nitride (GaN) make it the designated successor to gallium arsenide (GaAs) for radar applications. The three major properties are: substrate thermal conductivity and breakdown electric field 10 times greater than GaAs, and a very high output impedance, allowing GaN transistors to operate across very large bandwidths.

The higher breakdown electric field means that components will be able to operate at higher voltages (typically 20 and 40V, compared with 10V for X-band GaAs components) and will possess greater tolerance to impedance mismatch, rendering them less sensitive to hyperfrequency aggressions.

Operating at higher voltages, GaN amplifiers should reduce heat losses–which the good thermal conductivity of the substrate will help to evacuate more effectively. Hence the possibility of either deriving more power from components, or reducing component size for the same power.

GaN can be used to produce amplifiers up to several hundred watts which could be used to replace travelling wave tubes on telecommunications satellites. A major advantage in this case would be the elimination of very-high-voltage power supplies and the risk that these represent for the onboard environment. Transmit/receive modules for radar antenna (which today measure 6-7cm in length, with a 15mm section) could be packaged in 13mm cubes … small enough to insert into conformal antenna and open the way to “smart skin”.

Finally, the high breakdown voltage of the semiconductors means that the low-noise amplifiers in the reception stages of the radar will be less sensitive, i.e. more resistant to external aggression, such as offensive jamming and leakage from the transmit circuit at the antenna stage. Today, GaAs receive module stages require protection in the form of bulky and expensive ultra-rapid ferrite circulators. These circulators could be replaced by simple switches, also using GaN technology. In this way, all the high-frequency components of the radar antenna modules could be built using the same process, thus further reducing production costs.

http://www.entrepreneur.com/tradejournals/article/166091651_2.html

Anyway, nobody can deny that so far the NG Demo has been a big success, with very successful test flights in India. I don’t know when the FAB risk analysis was done, but it may have been some time ago due to the delays. It is therefore probably already out-dated, and will be even more out-dated by the end of this year

.
Well from SAAB point of view unsurprisingly yes. But you have to sort out what come from SAAB communication and the actual truth. The issue is that 95% of the gripen NG comes from SAAB PR so it is hard to know in reality.

Pepe insider experience with Indian and FAB officers gives another story. Nothing really bad for an aircraft at an early stage of its development. But as said, to pretend that in evaluation exercises it would perform better or as good as a fully developed aircrafts is wishful thinking. just an example among others : Why wait 2011 for a preproduction radar and around 2013-15 for an operational radar if it would already perform well against current AESA ? There is still a lot of work to be done and although the Gripen NG is not a paper plane it still has a lot of work ahead and is a riskier option than the SH or the Rafale. there is a ladder of risk and the NG is the riskiest option.

About performance its size is a constraint (energy production, carrying capabilities, combat range) but with the advantage of making the aircraft cheaper although not as cheap as SAAB would like to make believe (8000$-10000$) range.

In general you should not take SAAB press release for face value. You are rightfully very skeptical and challenging when someone make a criticism but the same sense of criticism you should have when there are SAAB news.

latest SAAB press release should be considered in the light of what has been revealed by COPAC evaluation. And you can see the limit of the communication exercise.

+1 with kovy
So what is your understanding of Isar ? It seems that you bring ideas to impress the gallery but can’t understand them.
anybody can provide a google link…

you should have note the date of the press conference (6 july) compared to your previous generic detail. With this new capability unveiled you are not up to date.
Be careful don’t mix ECCM and ECM.

What makes you believe that RBE2 AESA will not get this capability ? Selex AESA radar has five years to go so… wait and see and I am sure you will be surprised. You have to be patient because 2015 is in a long time before you can actually compare selex fighter with Thales fighter aesa. Ho I forgot that by that time the GaN Rbe2 aesa will be almost ready…Too bad for you !:D reality vs dreaming for 5 years

Also, your

quote about countermeasures needs clarification, as it it too generic a statement
do you have the link to where Thales or dassault say it will have EW in ~2012

Courtesy of pierre Yves Chatiel from thales, heads of Thales EW solutions during a press conference to unveil some of the rbe2 aesa radar new capabilities :

An AESA radar will significantly boost operational capabilities for the Rafale in terms of range, interception, tracking a multithreat environment and also improve countermeasures.

The technology will allow for the first time the same active array to be used for the radar and countermeasures.”It will be the only European aircraft with this capability,” he said.