arthuroAbout EW it is written in the article with direct quote to the head of EW program in thales. What more can I do if you are so bias to refuse a so clear evidence.
again :
An AESA radar will significantly boost operational capabilities for the Rafale in terms of range, interception, tracking a multithreat environment and also improve countermeasures.
The technology will allow for the first time the same active array to be used for the radar and countermeasures.“It will be the only European aircraft with this capability,” he said.
Where did you read it hasn’t (ISAR) ?
arthuroThat’s what I thought there is nothing serious in your claims. The Rbe2 aesa is EW capable and will encompasses this feature before competing aesa fighter selex radars and it has all the functionalities of modern aesa.
With one BIG/Fundamental difference with Gripen and Typhoon AESA.
It is developed and ready for operational use/evaluation (in august). Whereas the radar you are talking about still needs years of development. In 2016-18 when gripen and typhoon AESA will start being produced (if ever ordered !! There is no firm commitment yet) the RBE2 aesa GaN will be ready.
By your logic I could start debating that RBE2 GaN aesa radar is better than the F35 radar. And even in our selex and thales case the modules will likely be the same or very close but with a 5 years gap.
You still have issue to elaborate your answers. A few sentences is the maximum you can do.
Thales To Deliver AESA Radars Soon
DefenseNews, July 6
PARIS – Thales will begin deliveries in August of the first production batch of active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars for the fourth tranche of Rafale strike fighters, Pierre-Yves Chaltiel, head of electronic combat systems, said July 6.
A relative maturity in production of the AESA sensor allows Thales to launch the Searchmaster range of derivative products, which uses the active array technology. A compact version will be sold for UAVs and helicopters, and a larger model for medium-altitude, long-endurance drones, ground surveillance and maritime patrol aircraft, Chaltiel said.
The delivery of AESA production units marks the culmination of some 12 years’ work and more than one billion euros ($1.3 billion) of government and industry investment, he told journalists ahead of the Farnborough airshow, which opens July 19.
It has taken “more than 10 years’ effort to get to this stage,” he said.
In the world market, only three industrial teams could claim this level of technological maturity, namely Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman, Boeing and Raytheon, and Dassault Aviation and Thales, he said.
An AESA radar will significantly boost operational capabilities for the Rafale in terms of range, interception, tracking a multithreat environment and also improve countermeasures.
The technology will allow for the first time the same active array to be used for the radar and countermeasures.”It will be the only European aircraft with this capability,” he said.
The AESA radars will equip the fourth tranche of 60 Rafales ordered by the Direction Générale pour l’Armement (DGA) procurement office at the end of 2009. No financial details were available. A preproduction batch of three AESA radars have flown on the Falcon, Mirage 2000 and Rafale.
The tranche-four Rafales will operate at the F3 standard and the first AESA-equipped squadron is expected to be operational in 2012.
Some five or six countries have shown interest in the Searchmaster concept, which could be delivered in two years for the compact model and five years for the larger version.
The I-Master radar developed for the British Watchkeeper tactical UAV has drawn interest from the U.S. Army and Marine Corps, Chaltiel said.
Chaltiel outlined the technology roadmap for developing the AESA radar, which uses a patented cloud technology receiver module system, intended to allow insertion of new technology over the next 20 years without requiring extensive recertification.
arthurocould you provide sources for that instead of vague statement and be more specific ? I often feel that you are a quite lazy guy. Please elaborate and back your claims with sources.
It seems that the Brazilians have some doubts on selex current gripenNG aesa radar performance according to leaks in the evaluation.
Do you make a difference between claimed performance with “sound impressive bullet points” to impress the gallery and an actual working/mature/operational radar ?
Because of complaints that came to my knowledge I went to check on the ground if there were changes in the report issued by the Navy regarding the use of the Rafale on board the Sampa [Sao Paulo aircraft carrier]. Monday afternoon, friends of MB [Brazilian Navy] and FAB gave me access to the document submitted to Defence Minister and which contains the explanatory memorandum which will be submitted to President Lula.
The signature of the commanders of the two forces certifies that they are original. Some points:
1. From the Sao Paulo, the Rafale can operate with only 40% of its capacity [payload], which could be minimized with a refueling after takeoff;
2. The F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is unable to operate our aircraft carrier. Its dry weight is beyond the capacity of the wiring, Its length is greater than that of elevators and catapults would not be able to launch it;
3. Even the Gripen navy, which exists only in theory, can only function with a capacity of 80%.The document prepared by the Navy contains verbatim the explanatory memorandum and indicates that the 3 would operate smoothly with the future aircraft carrier class of 50000 tons to be operated by the Navy. This material, prepared by COPAC and reviewed by the High Command of Aeronautics has been valided. What has changed are the weights assigned to each element. A good example: in the original settings, established in 1995, the weight of technology transfer was 9%. In contrast, the weight of price and maintenance costs were 30 and 40%. No wonder the F/A-18E/F was the winners of the process. The generals have pushed the engineers to accept what they had established themselves as a rule! Jobim returned because that does not meet the assumptions of the new END [national defense strategy .. which favors technological independance]
In the new criteria established with the national defense strategy, the technology package is now worth 40%. It is worth noting that the recalculation of the scores have been prepared by COPAC. In the process, ended 75 days ago [!], the Rafale has emerged as the winner because it has scored regularly on all points.[…] Others competitors scored excellent on some points, but showed a weak performance [latimavel?] in others.
The Super Hornet has been heavily penalized by U.S. law, which prohibits the government from establishing compensation with other states. Everything depends only from the manufacturers, who can not afford the purchase of aircraft for the armed forces of Uncle Sam, for example. For its part, the Gripen present higher risks, according COPAC itself . The Swedes could not even show a spreadsheet about the costs of the F-414 because it was copyrighted by the U.S. Navy. Just to give you an idea, the volume of pages about this issue is equivalent to the amount of pages used to describe the risks of the two others competitors.
There are doubts about the performance of the radar, on the sustainability of the cell, on the implementation of the program and also some devastating certainties, like the fact that, with limited interior space and a lower capacity of energy production , the Gripen offers smaller developments than its competitors. Boys, I read it: written by Copac itself! Furthermore, it was rated slightly higher than the Rafale on the issue of technology transfer, but not enough to overcome its weaknesses and achieve trade compensation by france, which guarantees the purchase of 12 KC-390 and the participation of Dassault in the Embraer program.About the explanatory memorandum, it is a masterpiece from a methodological point of view. Each phrase refers to an attached document, including the explanatory memorandum sent in December by the Air Force Command, which uses color coding to highlight the strengths, weaknesses, and the median for each unit … [Exactly what said Istoe… some leaks were more credible than others ..]
For health reasons, I moved away from the forums. […] I hope I have been helpful to the debate.
Moreover, the Navy will operate 48 aircraft on its two units in the future.
Abracos
Pepe
Pedro Paulo Rezende is a well-know Brazilian Journalist (Correio Braziliense / Valor econômico / Jane’s defence weekly)
arthuroMy understanding is that there is a multi-nation development program for GaN in Europe.
To single out any company and say that they are superior when the development is shared amongst all, seems a false statement.
What you should understand is that the co-development is limited to the modules. Making an operational aesa fighter radar is another story with many years of work and few hundreds of millions euros to be spent. Why would be The typhoon Aesa radar ready in 2015 while the RBE2 aesa will be ready in less than a month then ? They use the same aesa modules from UMS (Thales/EADS)
You are wrong to think a radar is only an antenna.
arthuroOk for your source but you see it is easy to forget something so why not reposting the source. And you say but that is an opinion from a journalist.
That being said I am more confident about insider declaration from Jobim or the french mindef than another analysis.
I dont anticipate a rafale deal to be signed before the election although I still wait a formal declaration in favor of the rafale by Lula in the coming weeks or monthes before the gov change in January. Most probably the next gov will be pro rafale as well and a meeting with sarkozy and Dilma as already been held indicating that the french gov has already anticipated that the signing is not for tomorrow but probably for next year. So we might wait several months and even 2011 but nothing indicates that the rafale is losing for the moment. Politics can have its loads of surprise though…
arthurore lol 😀
Still waiting for a decent/published source…You could quote me if you wish !
arthuropost those links then ! For now there were several other articles stating that Lula will take the decision.
Another source for fun before you show me yours jackjack. I am waiting !
Jobim says it is the final phase for the report on fighters
Estadao , may 28Defense Minister Nelson Jobim said that the final stage of drafting the explanatory memorandum that will go to President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, pointing to the model of the fighter who will best meet in Brazil within the Strategy National Defense. The preference is for the French Rafale fighter.
The defense minister said that Lula “want to make the decision” still in its mandate. Except that the delay in presentation of the Jobim ‘s explanatory memorandum and subsequent convening of the National Defense Council, which will assess and approve the purchase, is worrying the airmen, who fear the proximity of the elections and the natural difficulties that arise in this period, for concluding negotiations and closing contracts the size of the FX-2, which can exceed U.S. $ 6 billion.
[…]
Asked if the subject was not experiencing many delays and could be hurt by the arrival of the [World]Cup and the elections, the Minister Jobim joked: “Cup and election has nothing to do with the purchase of aircraft. To my knowledge plane does not play football “. “the issue is the need.” And said: “We must remember that the defense moves these political issues. To emphasize that the President wants to make the decision even in his government, Minister Jobim said that “the whole problem is that we begin to have a gap in air defense in 2015 and we need to forwarding this issue and do not have much time to play with it.
According to Jobim, “President Lula only take a decision after a demonstration of the Defense Council.” For him, “before taking any decision.”. He acknowledged that the process has dragged on since 1995, but expects to close the matter.”It will take time to finish. But, as we are dealing with a purchase that relates to a period of 20 years, we can not pretend to be resolved in one week, one day.”
Jobim also noted that even after a decision by the president, with the choice of model, also will begin a “long process of negotiation of commercial and financial” with the chosen one.
Finally my spamming is not that useless to refresh your memory :
Jobim binding the purchase of fighter to the simultaneous sale of cargo [KC 390]
Valor Economico – May 24The Defense Ministry will send, in the coming days, an explanatory memorandum to President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva which both indicate a clear favorite in the purchase of fighter jets for the fleet renewal of the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) and a minimum requirements to complete the billionaire contract.
One of these requirements binding on the signing of the contract’s initial purchase of 36 jets a simultaneous order of 12 Embraer KC-390 with the winner of the competition. “We want the signature at the same time” said Minister Nelson Jobim to Valor.
The minister said he has written 76 pages of explanatory memorandum on the acquisition, which has an estimated cost of about $ 6 billion. The text will be released soon after handed over to President Lula and then discussed by the Council of National Defense. And later again for the FAB and the Ministry of Finance, to the stage of contract negotiation.
Are in dispute the French fighter Rafale from Dassault, the Swedish Gripen NG, Saab, and the F-18, manufactured by American Boeing. The preference for the French jet seems clear in Brasilia. Jobim said that the only important thing for Brazil, “if the [new] jet is french” is that the freighter Embraer may enter the European market and compete in the replacement of the fleet of C-130 Hercules, the American Lockheed. According to Jobim, in a world exists a fleet 300-400 Hercules, which will need to be replaced. Then comes the chance for the Embraer KC-190 which will be flying from 2014. The Brazilian government is also aware of the probable order of Rafale by the United Arab Emirates. If the acquisition is confirmed, Brazil could bargain for a package set that lowers the price of each jet.
Jobim denied that France has made a final bid to secure the sale of Rafale during the meeting of President Nicolas Sarkozy with President Lula in Madrid last week, contradicting information published by the French press. The minister believes that he can complete the negotiation of the purchase contract before the transfer of power in January, signaling that he can calm anxieties among the French, who have lost packages in some countries when a new governor took office. A spokesman said that Sarkozy left the meeting with Lula with the feeling that it will soon be confirmed the preference for the Rafale.
The French president revealed to President Lula, in the same conversation, he will propose during the meeting of the G-20 summit, next month in Toronto, that the reform of the UN Security Council to be accelerated and even decided until the end the year. With a permanent seat for Brazil, as an emerging power and regional leader.
arthuroSwerve,
I am talking about fighter AESA radar not AESA other products. Without meaning to offend you, your overraction is suspect as well.
Typhoon AESA radar if ever ordeed by pertner nation or from an export customer will not be ready before 2015. Thales fighter AESA first delivery for less than one month. (august). In 2015 Thales will be close to have an operational GaN fighter radar.
arthuroThe issue jackjack is that 90% of the time you got it wrong. President Lula said he will not leave this decision to its successor. Will he keep his promise ? French Mindef seems confindent. That being said nothing is sure but the official stance is to take the decision before. So you are wrong.
Right now the report that has been sent by Jobim and that gives the rafale as the best option is examinated by the defence commitee. So what you think is hesitation from Lula might well be a solid selection process that has to go by all stages.
Le Monde, page 5, July 17
[…] Outgoing Governor of Sao Paulo, Mr. Serra has not expressed his preference but he is close to Nelson Jobim, both served as ministers of Fernando Henrique Cardoso, Mr Lula Da Silva’s predecessor.
Son of a military M Cardoso had tried to re-equip the FAB before surrendering in 2002. At that time Dassault offered its Mirage 2000-5. Today, FAB is eager because its old planes may be grounded. President Lula has promised not to leave this matter to his successor
arthuroAs long as I can make my point with sources. I may disagree with Loke, robban, obligatory or sign but they have all my respect and are trustworthy persons despite the fact we support different aircrafts. Sorry to say that but you belong to another category. ie : the troll category.
arthuroIt’s obvious to me that the reason why it’s taking so long is because Lula is trying his hardest to come up with ways to justify a Rafale purchase. A tough task, as the Gripen offers “almost as good as”, “equally good” “or better” performance in comparison to the Rafale at a considerably lower price.
You forgot that the Gripen NG was always deemed as the least capable option among the three in both editions of the evaluation. When they changed the weight of different criteria putting technology as the a higher requirement the rafale became first. You shouldnt be confused by SAAB communication campain.
I dont think Lula as any issue to support the rafale. If French mindef is right (he has personnal access to Lula after all) he should endorse the rafale choice in the heart of an election campain ! Choosing an aircraft is always difficult considering the power of different lobbies and the fact that they could spark a controversy. So if he endorses the rafale choice in the coming weeks that would be a testament of confidence and a big blow for the rest of the competition. Even without a firm decision during his mandate his likeliest successor (Dilma Youseef) is a pro rafale. So although nothing is done the rafale is still the favourite.
Purchase of Rafale by Brazil: France expects an announcement by Lula in July
Le vif/L’express – July 15
The French Minister of Defense, Herve Morin, said Thursday he expected an “announcement or statement in July,” by President Lula about Brazil’s purchase of French combat aircraft Rafale.
“I wait quietly, serenely, the announcement or statement by President Lula that he foresaw for the month of July,” Mr Morin said on LCI. Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva was originally scheduled to announce its choice in April. He has said repeatedly that the Rafale had more benefits for Brazil, due to transfers of technology without restrictions promised by President Nicolas Sarkozy during a September 2009 visit to Brasilia.
[…]
arthuroYou could acknowledge that if Gripen was technically and ToT’ly’ on par with Rafale, for half the price, the gov would have changed his mind. Lula/Jobim aren’t mad, and buying costly military hardware for stupid reasons isn’t exactly what would happen in such a gov.
That is true. The gripen NG will certainly be a potent modern fighter aircarft when developed but it offers less guarantees than the rafale or the SH and it doesnt belong to the same category of aircrafts in terms of size and performance.
As far as Pepe analysis is concerned you should note that this is a report from a reading not an analysis which let place for subjectivity. And this report is fairly consistent with other sources like Jobim or Istoe.
arthuroNew horizons for AESA radars
Air&Cosmos 2226, page 26, july 9
Thales prepares the future in thinking over future radar technologies
Thales intends to maintain its position as a European pioneer in Aesa radar technology. This place, gained thanks to the development of AESA version of the Rafale front tip radar , will materialize in August, with deliveries of the first RBE2-AESA in standard production.
[…]Program:
If its RBE2-AESA enters in industrial phase, Thales intends to maintain its lead in providing some technological bricks considered crucial to broaden the scope of active antennas. This new roadmap is built around two key technologies: gallium nitride (GaN), a broadband semiconductor called to prevail for future emission-reception modules of radars with active antenna, and silicon-germanium (SiGe), a low power semiconductor, whose use in the control floors of the beam of active antennas will significantly reduce their size.Compared to the current gallium arsenide (GaAs), GaN offers much more power and works with very large bandwidth. This power, coupled with a sharp reduction in heat loss, lets consider very compact antennas since it will be possible to obtain the same power with smaller modules. The SiGe, itself, allows to regroup on a same low-power component several functions of phase control and amplitude control, reducing the overall size of the antenna.
Potential applications are diverse: In the medium term, it is expected that Rafale’s RBE2 and SPECTRA share the same antennas. In the longer term, one considers the application of conform antennas to the fuselage and their use as a single “entity” which would act as radar and electronic warfare, 360 degrees around the aircraft.
A boost from DGA
Air&Cosmos 2226, page 26, july 9
Some bricks are or have already been the subject of preliminary studies funded by DGA.
It is the case of SiGe chips, whose feasibility has been explored for applications in electronic warfare under the PEA (upstream syllabus) Mistral. The work Matrice about electronic collection (Air & Cosmos 2213) continue to evaluate the potential of SiGe to consolidate on a single chip all the commands needed to control and analyze radar beams.As for gallium nitride, the PEA Incas (integration of new capacities in Spectra) examine its integration in Spectra for 5th tranche Rafale.
On the other hand, under the European research program Korrigan, the UMS foundry (which produces the current GaAs modules for the RBE2-AESA) has already produced its first GaN component. A certification campaign for military aviation standards is underway and should be completed in 2011.
Thales and France is keeping investing on aesa tech to maintain its leadership in Europe. When Selex will field its first operational aesa around the middle of this decade (if ever ordered) thales will already be at the next level.
arthuroYou are wrong again jackjack. The RBE2 AESA is much more than just an AESA antenna add on. I have already posted an older air et cosmos report detailing all the hardware and performance upgrade. New processor, new architecture etc…I hope that another poster will quote this (I have lost track on this report despite several google search).
and you are quick to tackle Thales but look what selex is preparing for the Typhoon :
The Eurofighter consortium is trying to preserve, where possible, the use of the current Captor-M radar elements, including the receiver and processor. In fact, the AESA should reduce the number of line replaceable assemblies.
arthuroNews
Purchase of Rafale by Brazil: France expects an announcement by Lula in July
Le vif/L’express – July 15
The French Minister of Defense, Herve Morin, said Thursday he expected an “announcement or statement in July,” by President Lula about Brazil’s purchase of French combat aircraft Rafale.
“I wait quietly, serenely, the announcement or statement by President Lula that he foresaw for the month of July,” Mr Morin said on LCI. Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva was originally scheduled to announce its choice in April. He has said repeatedly that the Rafale had more benefits for Brazil, due to transfers of technology without restrictions promised by President Nicolas Sarkozy during a September 2009 visit to Brasilia.
[…]
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