arthuroIn Afghanistan, the typical payload is 2x2000L tanks and 4 AASM/GBU-12.
Without the weight of pylons and empty tanks, it makes at least 4.5 tons.About Leh, you forgot that the particular test which made most candidates fail is something which only requires some to modify their fuel system.
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/sho…&postcount=432
Even more than that as when you carry 4*250kg bombs you have the weight of the kit (and the booster of the AASM) and in a few months the damocles pod.
Also a possible future rafale configuration pushed for Astan by operationals (namely colonel Moussez) is pretty impressive :
-3LGB,
-3AASM,
-1GBU24 (1000kg),
-two laser guided rockets pods,
-two 2000L drop tanks
-one damocles pod
-and the 30mm gun
That is well over a 5t load…!
Besides F15E already flies with very heavy loads in Astan with a mix of 8 LGBs, one 1000kg JDAM, 2 heavy drop tank, AAMs and external sensor pods.
And SDBs are not used for CAS…I had a discusion with a F15E pilot back from Astan at the latest paris airshow in 2009. These bombs are not appropriate in that role.
From what I know there is nothing to say that the rafale failor succeeded at leeh trials (perhaps I missed something). I think Obligatory was a little bit quick on that. Like Tmor said the right engine or fuel system tuning would allow all the competitors to succeed this trial.
arthuroundirectly linked to the rafale : first live fire test of the SCALP naval.
arthuroAASM are dumb bombs ? 🙂
They already proved themselves in the CAS role when the weather prevent fighters from using their LGBs…
someone is misinformed…
As for damocles you just have to wait a few more monthes…till september for rafale next deployment in Astan. Mmmm that is just three monthes from now right ? 😉 from rafale news :
The first “Air” Damocles MP pods (multiporteurs – Mirage 2000D/Rafale) will then be tested, and seven of them should be delivered by end of 2010. The objective is to deploy a maximum of elements of the new F3.2 air-ground weapon aiming (Canon included) for future deployments in Afghanistan, planned for September for the Navy and the beginning of 2011 for the Air Force.
What you don’t get sign is that even at similar load a rafale will perform better. Even with 3,5t. What would be a medium load for the gripen would be regarded as a light load for the rafale.
In Astan with a payload around 5t you can expect better performance with the rafale than with the gripen assuming it has ever done a war mission.
You are strangely over focus on Astan as if it was the measure of all capacities…With this rational the gripen would be useless as it is not employed in any war missions. You have to brace for more scenarios than that :
In the case of a long range deep strike against a strategic and well defended target the ability of the rafale to carry 2 scalp, 3*2000L and 4 AAM (6 in the future as well as CFTs if required) is clearly a world above.
Lighter aircraft will always see their performance degrading much faster than heavy jets when you start increasing the payload…
Lighter jets have other advantages like being cheaper to buy and operate…
What is funny is to see people deny what is just common sense…
arthuroVideo of Hervé Morin, the french Mindef about rafale in UAE and Brazil.
-Basically they are finalizing the UAE contract and he strongly denies the figures of the article from “la tribune” posted on the post here-above which sparked a controversy.
-French contribution to the UAE rafale should be less than 2 billion according to him.
-Meteor integration will be paid by the french and will be introduced much earlier than planned.
-For Brazil he is very confident.
Link of the video of the interview :
arthuroNews from UAE
The Rafale in Abu Dhabi will be expensive for Paris
La Tribune , June 15The cost of developing the modernized fighter aircraft according to UAE wishes would be 4-5 billion euros.
The sale of 60 Rafale United Arab Emirates (UAE) is likely to be costly to France. If Paris acceed to all the wishes of Abu Dhabi, the cost of developing the modernized fighter aircraft would reach, according to several sources, between 4 and 5 billion euros, some people felt closer to 5 billion. With slightly more than 1 billion for the engine to move from 7.5 to 9 pounds of thrust, at the request of Abu Dhabi. […]
To date, manufacturers and Gov. did not despair to persuade Abu Dhabi to reduce the bill, including revising downward their wishes. However, work on the specifications of the aircraft is almost complete, one says to “La Tribune”. “We keep the schedule, the pace of negotiations is steady,” . Because Abu Dhabi has put all its purchase teams from the Department of Defense on this issue, a priority since the beginning of the year. So, Paris and Abu Dhabi could conclude the sale of the rafale itself before the end of July. Currently, both parties begin to discuss the financial aspect.
Serious lead in Qatar
Who will pay? The UAE will finance a part of these developments. “at best the client will pay only half ” one says to “La Tribune”. “The remainder will be paid by the Ministry of Defence and the industrialists who will share in proportion to their participation (Dassault Aviation 37.5%, Thales 37.5% and Safran 25%). According to our information, the Ministry of Defense will anticipate developments planned later in the current law on military programming (LPM) to modernize the Rafale for the air force and naval aviation. The aim is to bring the aircraft to the F4 standard in 2015-2020, whereas currently the Rafale is now moving to F3. “Some applications for UAE match developments which are a part of the LPM. We merely advances a number of projects,” one says at the ministry. But to date, future specifications of the Rafale for the AdA are not yet fixed.
Last section of the folder, the resale of UAE Mirage 2000-9. A very sensitive issue in the UAE, which do not want that Paris sees to it. According to reports, Abu Dhabi and Qatar have done, with the benevolence of France, a joint proposal to sell their 72 Mirage 2000 (60 for UAE and 12 for Qatar) to India. This would open a serious lead for the Rafale in the very francophile Qatar . Nicolas Sarkozy had praised the qualities of the aircraft to the Emir of Qatar at the Elysee Palace this year. India could therefore find themselves at the head of a fleet of more than 120 cheap and efficient Mirage, counting the 51 Mirage 2000 it already has, to be upgraded by Thales and Dassault Aviation, finally convinced. This led some to say that India could then take his time to manage the call for tenders for 127 new generation aircraft it has launched
arthuroVery nice pictures loke !
You can see the limitation of light aircraft however. The picture with the LGB miss the LDP to be make this configuration truly flexible in operational missions.
The picture with the Taurus shows that there is only one or two pylon left (for the NG for Drop tanks). You can bet that with two scalp/taurus the rafale or the SH could have much more range. This is quite valuable as these missile are usually used against high value targets which often require a long range flight. Especially true for the brazilian case as the country is very large.
To answer one of your point above I doubt that a gripen could carry only one taurus practically as that would be too much an asymmetrical load for an aircraft of that category.
arthuroI didn’t forget it if you read a few posts above.
If the lighter fighter force was so obvious why medium and heavy fighter exists ? Of course there is a trade off between costs and performance and it up to each airforce to decide if it worths it.
Two gripen NG for the price of a rafale is something I don’t buy…Certainly more expensive but not to this extent.
Last fly away price I got from dassault international support manager is ranging from 50 to 60 millions € depending on the versions.
Secondly two aircrafts don’t necesserly do better than one fighter. If you don’t have the legs you don’t have the legs and if you can’t carry the load to the appropriate range you can’t. Even with two aircrafts. A gripen with 2 taurus or two 1000Kg bombs will not be as good as the SH and the rafale. And that is not two gripen that will change it.
So I think that in many scenarios this assuption is oversimplistic besides the fact that for important missions you could also have a second rafale !
with the fall of the euro the price (not the cost) have gone down whereas a significant part a gripen costs are in dollar (starting with the engine). So the picture is always moving and is currently favouring costs in euros. But that could change of course…
arthuroYou missed my point Sign,
But the real point is that even with lighter loads a rafale or a SH will see their performance degrading much slower in terms of range and TW ratio than the gripen. So you have to look beyond raw datas and look at the performance of the aircraft associated with these loads. You might not be able to fly the same mission or defend yourself if your aircraft fly like a brick at such loads. However with a bigger aircraft you will have more margin which give you more operational flexibility.
As for loads over 7200Kg your wrong espcially if you look at the size of the brazilian territory. Even in the french case you often see loads over that. In operational sitautions that would be even more often as at home you don’t need to carry a full AtG load just to train the procedures of SCALP firing for instance.
A rafale and SH can carry more further with better kinetic performance than the gripen NG.
Even with a similar load within Gripen NG limits (lets say 4000Kg for the sake of the example) a rafale and a superhornet will be much less penalized than the gripen in terms of range and kinetics. This will allow more flexibility and better multirole performance in case of the need to perform autodefense.
That is just common sense. You cannot only have advantages when you are the smallest. Otherwise there would be no medium ans heavy fighters…
Besides most of SAAB gripen NG artwork with AtG load are unrealistic with no LDP or no fuel tanks with plenty of SdB. A bigger fighter offer more flexibility in terms of ops planning and loading combination.
arthuroThey fly with heavier config than this for deep strike (scalp, aasm, gbu12) for instance. However for practical reasons they don’t always need this kind of config to just train the procedures.
A future config for rafale in Astan which was brought forward by Colonel Moussez was 2*2000L drop tanks + 6GBU12 LGB (250kg) + 1 GBU24LGB (1000kg) + 2 laser rockets pods + Damocles pod (+ 4 micas if required).
But the real point is that even with lighter loads a rafale or a SH will see their performance degrading much slower in terms of range and TW ratio than the gripen. So you have to look beyond raw datas and look at the performance of the aircraft associated with these loads. You might not be able to fly the same mission or defend yourself if your aircraft fly like a brick at such loads. However with a bigger aircraft you will have more margin which give you more operational flexibility.
(They also have more flexibility as regard external load hard points : you can carry 6LGB or AASM with the rafale without compromising on external fuel or AtA weaponry.)
gripen small size has some assets (cheaper to buy and operate) but also drawbacks : less overall punch which can be describe with a minus on these factors : (range, payload, aircraft performance in war config, TWR, payload flexibility and less gross potential)
arthuroThat is still a lot less than rafale and SH…especially that at a given load they will perform better du to their size advantage. (more trust to weight ratio, more range etc).
At gripen max load it will be a medium load for SH and rafale.
arthuroThey surely don’t intend to enter the military shipbuilding market, at least for this type of boats. Besides boat engines are probably less sensible than for military fighter engines as they are sold much more widely worldwide with a various spare part distributions possibilities which would make harder an embargo.
Conversely they have an aircraft industry which is willing to absorb the technology and develop their aircraft for their own needs. The devil is in the details, and knowledge property contracts are very complex for this kind of technology beyond simplistic PR claims (auxiliary contracts etc) . Thus rafale being a safer bet in what regards ToT as the french gov. is the single source to deal with.
Jobim is a former lawyer so he must be aware of all these problematics.
arthuroFranco-indo-singaporean exercise
Indo-French Air Force Exercise Garuda Begins
Livefist – June 14
IAF Statement: The Indo-French Air Exercise Garuda began today at Istres Air Base in Southern France. During the Ex Garuda, the Indian Air Force and French Air Force will be engaged in various missions ranging from close combat, engagement of large forces, slow mover protection, and protecting and engagement of High Value Aerial Assets. According to the contingent commander of IAF, Gp Capt J Mishra, “The focus of the Air Exercise is learning from each other’s best practices. The Air Defence Operations would be central to our various maneuvers. These would take place in AWACS and non-AWACS environment. The intensity of the exercise would be gradually increased throughout its duration so that we learn and absorb maximum from the exercise”.
During the exercise the IAF’s Special Forces ‘Garuds’ would also be proactively participating and shall be carrying out jumps along with the French Special Forces. The IL-76 aircraft which is an integral part of the exercise flying missions, would practise static line drops with the French Special Forces. It may be recalled that the IAF is participating with Six SU-30 MKIs, Three IL-78s and one IL-76 Aircraft.
The entire IAF contingent arrived at the Istres Air Force Base on 12 Jun 2010 by 1215 hrs local time. The Istres Air Base is a large base located near Istres, North of Marseille in the Bouches-du-Rhone department, France. The base houses some of the world’s finest fighters and helicopters and serves multiple functions, including a repair facility and training grounds. The landing strip of this airbase is said to be the longest in Europe. The Istres Air Base was built before the world War II and has been of immense historical and operational importance.
It may also be recalled that the Republic of Singapore Air Force is also participating in the Ex-Garuda for the first time with the F-16 Aircraft. The French Air Force assets such as the mid air refueller, Mirage 2000s and Rafale Aircraft have commenced their participation in the exercise.
arthuroFrench mindef interview at eurosatory
La Tribune – June 14
[…]
Is France still technically able to make a fighter alone ?Yes, and France is also currently the only European country able to develop a fighter plane. The sale of Rafale in the UAE will lead to defining a new standard that is fully within our capabilities.
One speaks of the development of a new Rafale version for the UAE, isn’t it too expensive?
The discussions are not completed. A number of applications in the UAE developments correspond to an integral part of the french LPM [roadmap]. But nothing is yet decided with our partner.
The other potential buyer is Brazil. Don’t you feel to have been taken for a ride?
No. The relationship of trust we have established with the Brazilians have never been disappointed.
And the Kuwaitis?
Discussions are progressing at a good pace.
But what about the issue of Indian Mirage?
I am confident about the swift conclusion of our discussions.
[…]
arthuroNavy first.
According to the weekly Air&Cosmos the french navy has very secretly proceeded with the fire of the ASMP-A during fall 2009 with the rafale M24. As a consequence the nuclear strike capability was declared operational soon after this shooting with the flotilla 12F (also secretly).
The French Air force should be operational with the nuclear strike capability the 1st of july 2010 with the EC-1/91 Gascogne squadron.
arthuroAn older post from secret defense blog by J.D. Merchet went in the same direction. funny that those kind of competitions are so long as you could replace 2009 by 2010 or perhaps 2011 in this article !
2009 should be a year of the rafale
2009 should be the year of first export contract for the Rafale. The UAE should confirm their orders this year, announced in April 2008, 60 combat aircraft Dassault-Aviation. Deliveries would take place from 2012-14. In return, the Emirates will ask France to take the 60 Mirage 2000-9, that Paris is ready to accept but the exact formula is not yet known. However, it seems inconceivable that the french Air Force would get it back.These aircrafts will be offered on the international market opportunity, but it is a very good aircraft, the most modern of all the Mirage 2000, better equipped than the french 2000-5 for example. So much so that he might be a serious competitor … for the Rafale.
For other export markets, the situation is more blurred. Libya has promised to buy 14 Rafale, but the process of decision in Tripoli does not obey very rational rules . Brazil is in line for about forty rafales, with fairly good prospects. Things are more complicated in India because the country is close from the United States and could, therefore, favor the F-18. In Europe, both countries are concerned: Switzerland, where the Rafale is far ahead of its two competitors (Eurofighter and Gripen) in the eyes of the military at least, and Greece. But the country is experiencing a financial crisis and social change that would delay deadlines.
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