arthuroSomething written by someone else than jon lake maybe?
True…When you take some distance and think about all the bad press about the rafale you soon realize that Jon Lake is the common denominator.
The copy past from the french blog post in the Eurofighter journal is quite funny and ridiculous at the same time. And Again you find the trace of JL thanks to this “mistake”.
arthuroQuestion from a guy on the capitain Romain’s blog :
Hello Captain,
This, I believe, will answer all questions
exercise. The other course within the discretion of the own
military operations. The Rafale neutralizes the F-22 (without the kill) in
combat for 5 out of 6, he lost once. And it is shot, like all
the other, beyond visual range. What is the background logic.
His answer :
This leads me to make these few details … 🙂
1. The dog-fight is an exercise in ‘random’: ‘the F22 did not
prove to be above the rafale “… could also be said as: “the
rafale is the same level as the Raptor in dogfight. ” It is my
professional opinion. To say this, I rely on the fact
during ATLC, a UAE Mirage 2000-9, which was piloted by a french pilot
and although it is a plane much less efficient than the
Rafale, successfully pass a gun F22 shot during a fight
spirals … The dog-fight is an exercise in ‘random’ as the Rafale and the
Raptor is clearly of equal capability in this area.2. When I make a transit to my area of training or when
I returned from my Rafale mission, I shall often use this time to
practice shooting dummy missile on other military aircraft, that are
also in transit. Among the possibilities offered by the weapon system of the rafale, there is that which involves firing a missile into an aircraft
enlightens his radar while mine remains silent … There was never
a confrontation Beyond Visual Range between Rafale and F22. It is
however certain that the Raptor pilots as Rafale pilots , have tried to make such shots at
ATLC during transit phases.
http://blog.francetv.fr/capitaine-romain/index.php/2010/02/27/170326-le-dernier-post-de-johann
arthuroWhich aircraft between the Typhhon and the F35 will be the best in the AD role ? Nobody really knows…Kinetics for the typhoon but stealth and better set of sensors for the F35…
You have to see it in real life to draw a definitive conclusion but I bet the F35 will have an edge in BVR otherwise all the billions spent on stealth and all lokeed experience in fighter making is just worthless.
arthuroTHe MMRCA choice will be most probably a political/lobby influenced decision.
I clearly call into question India’s ability to set up a true impartial/independent evaluation and selection…I would like to see which measures they have taken against corruption.
I fear that with all the billions of $ on the line and with so much contenders the risk of corruption is “very significant”. Especially when you see the loosy indian purchase process with unclear decision taking processes.
The swiss evaluation showed how difficult it was to create a independent evaluation board with cross controls from the defense committee etc…(Remember the 1h TV report posted a while ago about the swiss evaluation process and accusation of corruption).
They spent a lot of energy creating a controllable/transparent/democratic overview process and even with so much caution they were some nasty accusations about people involved in the decision process.
I don’t think that anti corruption measure are somewhere close to switzerland (with direct democratic control, left wing anti military politics playing the watchdogs etc).
If asked about what type of fighter would be the best suited to India’ air force I would say that The SH, the F16 IN, the gripen NG and the rafale are certainly the best suited to the multirole missions requirement.
Afterward it is a question of ToT, politics, price, lobby and corruption but any of the four above could fulfill the mission very well.
arthuroRuag and Dassault Aviation concludes a delivery contract for Rafale fuel tanks
25.02.2010 Emmen (awp) –The RUAG Holding and Dassault Aviation have signed the first order under a new supply agreement. RUAG will be exclusive supplier for the manufacture of fuel tanks of the Rafale for the French Air Force, French Navy, and possibly for the Swiss Air Force and other export customers, said the federal government-owned munitions factory on Thursday.
Volume production begins in 2011 with deliveries through 2014. The order volume amounts to 2.5 million CHF per year.. Due to the optional supplementary agreement lies the entire order potential for 20 million Swiss francs
Google translation from:
http://www.handelszeitung.ch/artikel…ks_689495.html
DASSAULT AVIATION and RUAG strengthen their strategic partnership by signing a contract for the provision of all Rafale external tanks […]
This contract is a continuation of the strategic agreement signed by both companies during the fair EBACE09. It includes, the Rafale and its logistic support products as varied as the range of Falcon business jets, training aircraft Alphajet, UAVs including the nEUROn and curriculum and development on future products of Dassault Aviation.
In an advance phase on the choice of new fighter aircraft, this contract demonstrates the firm commitment of Dassault Aviation and its partners Rafale International, Thales and Snecma, to Swiss industry, research centers and universities.
http://www.ruag.com/Media/Press_rele…010/25.02.2010
http://www.ruag.ch/
Rescue attempt for the purchase of new fighter jets
Armasuisse proposes a new variant – Less specimens
The procurement authority of the army, Armasuisse, proposes new procurement for a partial replacement for the Tiger. This is in keeping with the reputation of politicians.[…]
As reported several sources, the procurement agency of the army while a new variant brought to the game: Specifically, it proposes to buy as a first step, only 10 to 12 fighter jets instead of the planned 22 . Interested parties see this as the rescue effort for the procurement project, the Defense Ueli Maurer said would suspend for lack of money favorite in 2015, sits by Maurer, would be the people’s initiative opponents of the army for a buy-moratorium actually met and fell.[…]
What does the variant parts procurement for suppliers? “No comment,” states that the Swedish manufacturer Saab, Switzerland, wants to sell its Gripen fighter jet .It would just Saab reason to get angry. The Gripen is the cheapest of the three evaluated jets. A partial purchase allows this cost advantage disappears because the basic costs incurred regardless of how many jets, so will outweigh.The French manufacturer Dassault, which has made an offer for its Rafale jet, is confident that Armasuisse will lead to end an accurate evaluation with new variants. According to several sources in the aeronautical evaluation, the Rafale has fulfilled the best the criteria . The provider of the Eurofighter, a consortium of EADS shares,says that the new variant does not alter the initial situation: the information was provided to negotiate the contract with the Chosen manufacturer in a final round.
Whether Armasuisse penetrates the part procurement, is questionable. Air Force Chief Gygax was, however, says an insider, because Gygax consider the mission of the Air Force, with only 10 to 12 new jets to be no longer achievable. Even Federal Maurer has already issued a denial of the variant: Buy “Only 8 or 12 new planes does nothing. It costs a lot in the daily operation, helps us but not very much, “he told the Neue Luzerner Zeitung
.
arthuroI think the truth is half way through…True the gripen NG is a very competitive/attractive offer but to think that in a multi billion deal lobbyism doesn’t play is very naive. (I say this for all contenders). Certainly Saab and boeing knew who to target to embarrass Lula and Jobim.
Now it is mostly about a struggle for influence (economical/political) regardless of aircraft qualities. I bet that negotiation that are behind the curtains are what matter now. Press releases/PR etc are of little importance.
arthurohere is the full post :
By Stephen Trimble on February 17, 2010 2:47 AM |
The United Arab Emirates has dropped a bombshell on France’s Dassault, according to this UPI story today. Before it agrees to buy 60 Rafale fighters, the UAE wants Dassault to integrate Boeing’s standoff land attack missile-expanded response (SLAM-ER), instead of the MBDA AM-39 Exocet. Sacre bleu! And so continues the most tortuous contract negotiations since Boeing offered to lease 100 767s to the US Air Force.
Meanwhile, back in Paris, the Armee de l’Air leaks to French newsweekly Air & Cosmos, providing a few more tidbits about what happened between the Raptor and the Rafale at the Al Dhafra exercise late last year. According to Air & Cosmos’ sources, the USAF requested only two training sorties between the F-22 and the Rafale of three engagements each, with one-on-one combat within visual range. [In other words, the USAF says, “If you don’t turn on your Spectra system, we won’t turn on our ALR-94.”]
In those six engagements, the F-22 scored one gun kill, but the other five dogfights ended in a draw, Air & Cosmos says. Another sources tells the magazine the F-22 scored two gun kills, with four nulls.
arthuroI am confused — what role does spectra play in a dogfight, which I thought would be the “end-stage” of a WVR?
In Air&Cosmos, spectra was put forward for its passive indentification performance against SAM sites. Nothing to do with the raptor dogfight.
That article didnd’t speak only about rafale vs raptor altough this part was much more advertise.
arthuroThis is just childish spinning for the sake of spinning…Of course that stealth can’t be emulated by a 4th gen but the rest can. That extactly what I meant. Grow up 😉
arthuroSorry should have posted it here :
Rafale vs F-22 : the balance of the match
The Air & Cosmos magazine publishes the results of the meeting between the French Rafale and the F-22 in the skies of the United Arab Emirates in December 2009, as it has been confirmed by the Air Force. Six engagements have taken place during the exercice we already reported on this blog.
Of those six games, “the F-22 conducted one shot gun, five other ending with a draw” -a scenario called “mutual neutralization ” .Slightly dominated by the U.S. plane, a pure stealth fighter and very maneuverable the Rafale has therefore proved to be a tough opponent. This information confirms what we wrote in mid-December.It should be noted that the Americans had wanted to limit these meetings in within visual range engagements , that is to say dogfights one against one. Du “dogfight” dans le style de la bataille d’Angleterre revue et corrigée avec la technologie du XXI ème siècle. “dogfight” in the style of the Battle of Britain, revised with the technology of XXI century.
This is little in the way combat aircrafts act today because the long-range interceptor (Beyond Visual Range) is preferred.
Through its system of passive detection AN/ALR-94 the F-22 Raptor “fighter would have detected the French long-distance” which allowed him to shoot the (fictional) of air-air missile “standoff” says the Weekly Air and Cosmos.
http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.fr/defense/2010/02/rafale-contre-f22-le-bilan-du-match-.html
arthuroyou are making the assumption that there isnt upgrades to the f-22, a simple google will show there are many
a 4gen can never be a 5gen
Excpet for stealth yes it can…
There were some upgrades to the F22 but when you compare it to other 4th gen upgrades their are catching up quickly and will probably outpreforms F22 sensors during their operational life for some of them. If its not already the case for some sensors.
On another topic, A 4.5 gen fighter is far more versatile, affordable and flexible to use. An F22 is a superb aircraft but of little use for the war of its time.
So there is often a bias when talking about the F22 and capability. Yes it can beat other 4th gen during exercises but no it can’t win todays war like iraq or afgahnistan. (ie to provise a usefull contribution)…
So how do you define capability ? Virtual games and showing off or doing the dirty job and making an impact in real conflicts ?
There is always a tendency among male population to look for “the mine is bigger, faster, quicker etc than yours” etc but I don’t think it is the correct appoach.
You should assess the relevance of a given capacity in a given environement. The F22 is probably relevant in a Cold war scenario but less in the “long war” scenario.
The problem with getting hard data on radar tech is that it is one of the closest secrets the US has.
The same can be said from any other radar manufacturer so it is very hard to compare…especially given the pace of development.
arthuroRafale vs F-22 : the balance of the match
The Air & Cosmos magazine publishes the results of the meeting between the French Rafale and the F-22 in the skies of the United Arab Emirates in December 2009, as it has been confirmed by the Air Force. Six engagements have taken place during the exercice we already reported on this blog.
Of those six games, “the F-22 conducted one shot gun, five other ending with a draw” -a scenario called “mutual neutralization ” .Slightly dominated by the U.S. plane, a pure stealth fighter and very maneuverable the Rafale has therefore proved to be a tough opponent. This information confirms what we wrote in mid-December.It should be noted that the Americans had wanted to limit these meetings in within visual range engagements , that is to say dogfights one against one. Du “dogfight” dans le style de la bataille d’Angleterre revue et corrigée avec la technologie du XXI ème siècle. “dogfight” in the style of the Battle of Britain, revised with the technology of XXI century.
This is little in the way combat aircrafts act today because the long-range interceptor (Beyond Visual Range) is preferred.
Through its system of passive detection AN/ALR-94 the F-22 Raptor “fighter would have detected the French long-distance” which allowed him to shoot the (fictional) of air-air missile “standoff” says the Weekly Air and Cosmos.
http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.fr/defense/2010/02/rafale-contre-f22-le-bilan-du-match-.html
arthuroSpudman,
That’s very vague explanation…I don’t say its not necessary the best but I fear that there is more “mystics” than actual proofs. How can you be so sure ? Have you seen fists hand datas ? Or is it just a ganeral impression + some advertising ?
arthuroWhen comparing F22 sensors to the rafale or the F35 (and some others like the gripen NG) it must be said that F22 radar dates from the early 2000 decade while F35, rafale or other new AESA are a decade younger. When you see the pace of technology development I bet that an APG81, RBE2 AESA, APG79 or a vixen AESA will have some edge over the APG77.
Especially when you know that the APG77 was one of the first of its kind (AESA).
To be the first comer is always very expensive as you don’t have an experienced workforce nor a industry tool to mass produce and design AESA radars. You have to start from zero and the initial investment is considerable. Other project benefited from a more progressive knowledge curb and a maturing of this technology.
The same can be said for other sensors…I don’t see why F22 sensors would beat everything even tens years after.
It has some features that can’t be emulated easily like VLO or SC but in the sensor arena the F22 won’t have an edge for ever and it is highly probable that some of its sensors are already not the bests anymore.
arthuroDifficult to know as the UAE rafales would be quite specific…”Full options” to say the least.
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