arthuroROUND n°3
DUTCH EVALUATION
3) The Dutch evaluation was financial/industrial, and no formal technical evaluation (and no flight evaluation) of the competing types was carried out.
The multi-criteria analysis, in cooperation with TNO and Dutch Laboratory for Atmospheric and Space (NLR) was performed, was a time consuming exercise. First were 700 criteria that the new fighter had to comply. Then experts gave a figure for each criterion. The weighted average of the scores was an indication of the system effectiveness of any device – in plain English: how well the aircraft was.
In the Court Brief on the JSF decision of February 11, 2002 was the multi-criteria analysis in detail. The government stressed in the letter detailed the purity of the process. The operation of the Air Force was rated by an independent working group of the Ministry of Defense, wrote the government. It had ruled that “the candidates thoroughly and carefully review”was conducted.
The evaluation itself was not the House. The same was true for the so-called B / C paper, the results were described. Both documents contain confidential commercial information from aircraft manufacturers and are therefore confidential.
According to the Air Force, the uncertainties involved. In the multi-criteria analysis, as wrote the Air Force in the B / C paper, the uncertainties “adequately addressed”.
In this analysis, some criteria are not one, but three scores out. The median score, the “expected performance” again. In addition, experts also had a top and a given value. After all values were added together, the multi-criteria analysis yielded three final scores on the system effectiveness.
The median score gave the Air Force how well the aircraft would be in 2010. The top score was the most optimistic expectations of the performance, the score was the worst case scenario. “This leads to more complete picture of system effectiveness with uncertainties, risks but also potential”, wrote the Air Force.
Hardly an economic review isn’t it ?
http://www.dedefensa.org/article.php?art_id=84
Quote:
A surprising and important detail had been made public: the technological and operational evaluation by the RNAF of the three candidates. According to the RNAF criteria, the JSF had been graded 6.97; the Rafale, 6.95; and the Eurofighter Typhoon, 5.85
ARTHURO : 3 JACKONICKO : 0
😀
arthuroRound n°2 SINGAPORE :
2) There is some indication (but no proof) that Typhoon ‘won’ in Singapore. The anecdotal evidence supports that view.
Rafale, the French fighter, scrambles for export orders
By Christina Mackenzie
International Herald TribunePublished: July 16, 2006 Paris
Riddle: Which combat aircraft outperforms its competitors in dogfights, is frequently classed first on technical merit in international tenders, is capable of covering a broad spectrum of air missions and is competitively priced, but has yet to win a single export order from a foreign air force? Answer: the Rafale, the French fighter developed and manufactured by Dassault Aviation.
In development since the mid-1980s and in French naval carrier-based service since 2004, Rafale is a so-called fourth-generation fighter, a sophisticated multirole jet with advanced avionics and weapons systems, but less able to avoid radar detection than “fifth generation” stealth fighters like the Lockheed-Martin F-22 Raptor or the U.S.-European F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.
Competitors include the U.S.-made F- 15 Eagle, in service in various versions since the 1970s, the F-16 Fighting Falcon and F-18E/F Super Hornet, the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Swedish-built JAS-39 Gripen, marketed in collaboration with BAE Systems of Britain.
Dassault and the French Ministry of Defense hope that exports may now take off after Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin declared operational a first French air force squadron of 20 Rafales on June 27.
“It’s almost impossible to sell a combat aircraft not operational in its own air force,” Gérard David, head of communications for Dassault said during an interview by telephone. “The doors are now open to Rafale’s export career.”
Within the French military, the Rafale eventually would replace existing air force and naval fighters and fighter- bombers, including the Mirage IV, F1 and 2000; the Jaguar; Crusader; Etendard IV and Super-Etendard.“This is going to reduce our operating costs tremendously through rationalization of maintenance,” said General Patrick Dufour, director of the Rafale program at the Délégation Générale de l’Armement, France’s defense procurement agency.
Colonel François Moussez, a pilot who has flown 150 hours on the Rafale, said that two could do the work of six existing air superiority/defense and air-to-surface attack jets. “With the Rafale,” he said, “we can do simultaneous multimission management: air-to-air, air-to- ground, reconnaissance at the same time.”
Moussez said that in dogfight exercises, the Rafale had outflown F-15, F-16 and F-18 opponents, and in technical and performance evaluations “we have systematically won against the F-15 and the Eurofighter Typhoon.”
Yet it lost to the F-15 in competitions to sell to South Korea and Singapore. Moussez said it was outflanked in the former case on political grounds and in the latter case on costs, noting that the dollar had depreciated 30 percent over the period of the Singapore competition.In competitions to sell combat aircraft, “the principal criterion is political. It has little to do with aircraft performance,” Moussez said.
Richard Aboulafia, an aerospace analyst with Teal Group in Fairfax, Virginia, also says that politics play a major role in fighter procurement. “Aggressive U.S. foreign policy” was a primary cause of export wins by U.S. military jets, he said during an interview by telephone.
Bob Kemp, director of sales for the Gripen, was not so sure. “There is no doubt a political factor,” he said during an interview. But “the first thing is, the aircraft must be able to do the job, and the second is financial.”
The Gripen, in operation with the Swedish Air Force since 1997, has been sold or leased to three countries and is quietly adding more orders, partly because it is “half the price of our competitors,” Kemp said.Pricing combat aircraft is notoriously complex, with deals often involving industrial offsets and seldom reflecting full aircraft development costs. While Dufour put the average cost of a Rafale at €50 million, or $64 million, and the Typhoon – a collaboration grouping Italy, Germany, Spain and Britain – at about £65 million, or $120 million, Kemp said both aircraft had been offered to Singapore and South Korea at about $95 million each, compared with a basic price tag of $45 million to $50 million for the Gripen.
Combat aircraft technology “costs what it weighs,” Kemp said. “The Typhoon is basically twice the weight of the Gripen – and costs twice as much.”
The Typhoon, although lacking air-to- ground capacity in its current version, already has one export customer. Austria signed for 18 aircraft in August 2003 and Britain has signed a preliminary agreement with Saudi Arabia to supply at least 24 Typhoons from the British production run of 89 aircraft, although no final deal has been sealed.Meanwhile Gripen has sold 28 aircraft to South Africa, the first of which left Sweden by ship in early July for the Overburg test flight center near Cape Town. Hungary has signed a lease and purchase agreement with Sweden for 14 aircraft, of which the first five were handed over in March. And the Czech Republic has leased 14 aircraft, all of which have been delivered. Norway and Denmark have also requested information on the Gripen from Saab, its manufacturer.
French procurement officials, comparing the sales prospects of the Gripen and Rafale, said the Gripen was designed for a different type of mission. The Rafale, a twin-engine aircraft with a maximum takeoff weight of 24.5 tons, can carry 9.5 tons of weapons slung under its wings, while the single-engine Gripen, with a maximum takeoff weight of 14 tons, carries only 5 tons of weapons.
Kemp agrees. Buyers of the heavier fighters “pay for longer range and heavier weapons loads,” he said, fitting them for a strategic defense role that some air forces may find less relevant than it was at the height of the cold war.
Still, by 2030, many countries will need to renew their combat aircraft fleets including some, like India and Japan, that may face significant strategic challenges. Saudi Arabia may finalize its Typhoon deal at the Farnborough Airshow, and analysts say other likely customers in the near future include Morocco and Brazil.
Excluding the United States, Russia and China, the open export market is estimated by analysts at around 3,000 aircraft. France traditionally holds between 10 percent to 15 percent of this market. Based on political preferences and past performance, France could hope to export about 300 Rafales, analysts say.
from Dassault CEO :
The Typhoon, whose development also started in 1998, was fielded as an air defence aircraft in December 2005. This fighter will not have a true omnirole version (enabling, for instance, to lift and fire a cruise-missile) before the next decade.
Ever since the beginning of the decade, the Rafale has always been deemed superior to the Eurofighter« Typhoon » by the countries concerned (i.e. the Netherlands, South Korea and Singapore), whenever it has been in competition (or has been submitted to comparative evaluations) with this rival. In the Netherlands, for instance, the Rafale’s score differed by a scarce 2% from that of a « paper JSF ». A number of elements enables us to tackle the future with confidence, such as the imminent fielding, in the Air Force, of Rafale upgraded to F2 omnirole standard, the fact that a number of foreign experts recognize that the Rafale offer is superior to the Typhoon offer, and the doubts remaining about the F-35/JSF programme.
ARTHURO : 2 JACKONICKO : 0
arthuroRound 1 KOREA :
1) There is some indication (but no proof) that Rafale ‘won’ in Korea. The anecdotal evidence mostly supports that view.
source n°1 from the korea Times :
“Dassault’s combat aircraft Rafale was rated as “excellent” in all five categories, while its strongest rival, Boeing’s F-15 fighter, reached the standard in only two categories.
The Boeing fighter received “excellent” in reliability and supportive combat capability, while Eurofighter, produced by a European consortium, won the top grades in the general function and reliability categories.
In the categories of weapons and electronic warfare capability, only Rafale earned the “excellent” grade, according to the officials.
Russia’s Su-35 took fourth place with “ordinary” rates in all five categories.
Source n°2
Korea to Buy 20 Foreign Fighter Jets Next Year
(Source: Korea Overseas Information Service; dated Jan. 18, web-posted Jan. 17, 2007)
Having ordered 40 Boeing F-15Ks, South Korea has now confirmed plans to order 20 new multi-rôle fighters in 2008. Korea has decided to choose a foreign contractor through open bidding to supply 20 “next-generation” fighter jets in the coming years, a project to cost around 2.3 trillion won ($2.4 billion), defense officials said Wednesday (Jan. 17).
The project follows Seoul’s contract with the U.S. company Boeing Co. in 2002 to buy 40 F-15K jets for $4.6 billion. Eighteen jets have been delivered so far, with the remainder to be introduced by next year.
“We plan to draw up a detailed plan for the procurement project next month and distribute the proposal in March, with the aim of signing a contract by February next year,” said Major General Kim Deuk-hwan, director-general for aircraft programs at the Defense Acquisition Program Administration.
The decision was made at a defense procurement project committee meeting presided over by Defense Minister Kim Jang-soo at the Defense Ministry building in central Seoul.
Korea has pushed for the purchase of 120 next-generation fighter jets as part of its blueprint for overhauling the military’s structure and drastically increasing combat capability by 2020.
“It is a plan to secure 20 highly efficient multipurpose fighter jets to actively counter threats by neighboring countries under the National Defense Reform 2020 project,” Kim said. “We will introduce the aircraft between 2010 and 2012.”
He indicated that Lockheed Martin’s F-35 model will be ruled out, saying the Air Force needs double-engine fighters.
“There are a lot of differences between the single-engine F-35 and what our military needs, including weapons capacity and flight scope,” Kim said.
Korean officials expect the introduction of a foreign model to help the country learn the core technology needed for the designing and manufacturing of advanced aircraft, as well as contributing to the development of the domestic aerospace industry and the creation of jobs.
In 2002, Seoul chose Boeing’s F-15K, probably in consideration of the long-standing military alliance with the United States, giving a new lifeline to Boeing’s then-sputtering F-15 production line in Missouri. The French-built fighter Rafale reportedly beat the F-15K by a narrow margin in the technical phase of evaluation. Two other fighters, the Russian Sukhoi Su-35 and the Typhoon from European consortium Eurofighter, also joined in the competition.
Source n°3
DATE : 20/03/07
SOURCE : Flight InternationalTyphoon to battle F-15K in Seoul
By Siva GovindasamyBoeing and Eurofighter go head-to-head again for 20-aircraft deal, as Dassault and Sukhoi withdraw interest.
Boeing’s F-15 and the Eurofighter Typhoon are to contest the $2.4 billion next phase of South Korea’s F-X fighter contest, with potential rivals Dassault and Sukhoi having decided against entering the second round of bidding.
Officials from Boeing and the Euro¬fighter consortium at¬tended a compulsory presentation conducted by South Korea’s Defence Acquisition Programme Administration (DAPA), which spelt out Seoul’s requirements for the 20-aircraft deal. Dassault and Sukhoi did not send representatives.
“Dassault said in 2002 that it won’t take part in future South Korean competitions, and it appears to be keeping to its word. Sukhoi probably realised that it had little chance as well,” says a Seoul-based industry source. “The Koreans will be relieved that Eurofighter is still keen as they want a competition, as opposed to awarding a single-source contract.”
The new requirement is being opened up to competition even though Boeing won a contract to supply the South Korean air force with 40 F-15Ks in 2002, plus 40 options. The F-15 was chosen over the Typhoon, Dassault Rafale and Sukhoi Su-35, although the Rafale came out on top in the evaluation.
The decision hardened perceptions that South Korea is biased towards procuring US military hardware, and prompted Seoul to launch an open bid for the second phase of its contest. However, in a possible indication of its platform preference, the DAPA’s K-X requirement calls for the acquisition of an “F-15 class” aircraft.
Eurofighter’s confidence is based on its sales record and the fact that the aircraft has now proven its capabilities, says the industry source. Around 100 are now operational with launch users Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK, and deals to export a further 90 to Austria and Saudi Arabia are progressing. “It [Eurofighter] is determined to break into the Asian market, and the fact that it had more representatives at the meeting than any other company shows how seriously it is taking this,” the source notes.Boeing and Eurofighter must submit their proposals for the K-X deal by 18 April, with a contract to be signed around February 2008 and deliveries to occur in the 2010-12 timeframe.
source n°4
Fighter jet scandal rocks Korea
By David Isenberg
In the latest twist to a controversial weapons-procurement program, a South Korean Air Force court martial last Wednesday sentenced a colonel to three years in prison on charges of bribery and disclosing classified military information concerning a US$4.23 billion fighter-jet sales contract, commonly known as the F-X project.President Kim Dae-jung approved an air force agreement on May 28 to purchase 40 F-15K fighter jets from US aircraft maker Boeing from 2005 through 2009 to serve as South Korea’s next-generation fighters. Boeing’s F-15K, the advanced version of the F-15E, was widely perceived as an aging aircraft, prompting speculation that South Korea caved in to US pressure, opting for Boeing even though French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation SA offered a lower price for its fighters.
The court said Colonel Cho Ju-hyung received a total of 11 million won ($9,300 at current exchange rates) in bribes from a representative of Dassault over a period of nine months from January last year. Cho’s defense counsel said the colonel was only acting according to his conscience to highlight the misdeeds of the Defense Ministry regarding the purchase of next-generation fighters.
The F-X program has been so controversial that in June the Ministry of National Defense said it would publish a White Paper, to be researched and written by the Korea Institute for Defense Analysis, by October on the bidding for the F-X program. A ministry official said, “The White Paper will contain all the specifics concerning the selection process, beginning with the Korean Air Force’s proposal for the next-generation fighter-jet project.” It will be the first official analysis published by the ministry concerning the project.
From the South Korean perspective, the competition was a no-win situation. If Boeing’s F-15K were chosen, it would invite furious internal repercussions and suspicion that South Korea, once again, had succumbed to US pressure to buy US weapons. These suspicions come not only from the military (the South Korean Air Force favored Dassault) but from many lawmakers and the general public, who are tired of 50 years of US economic and political pressures and angry that President George W Bush has intensified tensions in Korea by labeling North Korea part of an “axis of evil”.
US pressure to buy from Boeing were an unsettling reminder of South Korea’s junior-partner status to the United States. They began in spring 2000, when Bush pushed for a Boeing purchase in his meetings with Kim. After that, Boeing sent a delegation to Seoul that included several key members of Missouri’s congressional delegation, including Senator Christopher Bond, a Republican, and Richard Gephardt, a Democrat who represents the city of St Louis. The pressure went up a notch last October when Boeing lost a huge $200 billion contract for the US Joint Strike Fighter to its largest rival, Lockheed Martin. A few weeks later, Bond warned that “very unfortunate things could happen” to US-Korean relations if Seoul decided against buying Boeing’s F-15 Eagle.
Meanwhile, the idea that South Korea, with its 50-year relationship with the United States, might select a French company for a strategic project like the F-X irked the Pentagon and raised concerns among US military analysts. Historically, South Korea has purchased 80-90 percent of its weapons from US manufacturers.
Last month the Seoul District Court rejected an injunction sought by the French aircraft maker to stop the contract from going to US rival Boeing. Dassault, which produces the Rafale, has left South Korea and said it will not participate in any future government procurement bids after the decision to go with Boeing’s F-15K.
This is not the first time corruption charges have been made in regard to the fighter project. In May it was reported that Choi Kyu-sun, a former aide to President Kim, was supposed to receive $12 million from Boeing in return for his help in ensuring that the company won the project.
That investigation focused on the possible connection between Choi and Boeing, with Choi contending that the son of Kim’s right-hand man Kwon Roh-kap, who is working at General Electric (GE), studied in the United States on a Boeing scholarship. Kwon is under arrest on bribery charges.
In April South Korea also picked GE as a subcontractor for Boeing’s F-15K fighters over Pratt & Whitney, until then the sole engine provider for the F-15. Some raised questions over the decision, saying that the government’s choice of GE had something to do with Kwon’s son, who allegedly got a job with the engine maker in 2000.
In March the bidding process in South Korea turned into a national scandal after military police arrested two South Korean Air Force colonels on charges that they took bribes from Comet International, a company acting as a local agent for Dassault, in exchange for confidential information and advice. One of the officers was arrested after telling a television news program that senior Korean military leaders pressured a committee that conducted flight evaluations of all candidate aircraft to recommend Boeing. The French claimed they had been set up.
(©2002 Asia Times Online Co, Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact [email]content@atimes.com[/email] for information on our sales and syndication policies.)
ARTHURO : 1 JACKONICKO : 0
arthuroThe rafale won korean and singapore technical evaluation and finished second in the dutch evaluation very close to the F35 but far ahead the typhoon. This last eval was based on an extensive review of aircraft performances and took in account “projected performance” of various aircrafts. There are official sources to attest it. Jackonicko is unable to challenge this with precise named sources.
As for the Brazilian evaluation FAB preference is based on ToT and prices and this eval might have been influenced by SAAB lobby to emphasis criterion which could place the gripen in first place. The second eval is more “capability” focus and the rafale and SH came ahead the gripen.
arthurojackjack,
you are hijacking many threads with your ignorant comments. Learn, search, read and think before posting. It starts to be annoying…
I am under the impression that you have some understanding difficulties when reading something…Or are you lazy ?
arthuroSome news from the latest A&C issue.
-The F3 standard feature Mica’s PK on the HUD now. That wasn’t the case on the F2.
-A Fokker 100 has just been bought to serve as a testbed for the RBE2 AESA and other rafale avionics. It will also be used for the mirage 200D midlife upgrade.
arthuroThat is why AC on rafale if exists is perhaps intended to supress not all rafale radar signature but supress some specific radar returns from some more “brilliant” parts of the airframe to other radars.
That being said we can only speculate. Did you know the origin of this rumor jackjack ? Here it is for your information.
From Bill Sweetman :
The Rafale EW suite, known as Spectra, is one of the most powerful systems installed on a fighter aircraft and is intimately associated with the unique approach to stealth and survivability designed into the Rafale. Dassault executives describe the Rafale as discreet rather than being stealthy in the sense of a F-22. To avoid detection, it combines avionics, tactics, and reduced radar reflectivity with some techniques that have not been directly revealed and are apparently unique.
The first element of discretion is that Spectra’s receiver system and the FSO help detect and track targets without using radar. Spectra incorporates a radio-frequency (RF) detection system, a missile-approach warning sensor, and a laser-warning system and provides full 360-degrees coverage. The RF detection subsystem uses prominent square-section antennas, mounted on the lower corners of the engine inlets and in the rear of the fin-top pod, covering 120 degrees each. The receiver antennas use interferometric techniques to measure a signal’s angle of arrival within less than 1 degree and are designed so that they do not have a large radar-cross-section (RCS) contribution.
The Rafale is also designed to use terrain masking, particularly at night or in bad, weather when visually cued short-range surface-to-air weapons are less effective. With its maneuverability and a high degree of cockpit automation, the fighter is designed to fly a terrain-avoidance/threat- avoidance profile at 5.5 g and 100 feet in altitude. The RBE2 and a terrain-referenced navigation system, using stored terrain data, are used to provide redundant flight guidance.
Rafale makes extensive use of radar-absorbent material (RAM) in the form of paints and other materials, Dassault engineers have said. RAM forms a saw-toothed pattern on the wing and canard trailing edges, for instance. The aircraft is designed to so that its untreated radar signature is concentrated in a few strong “spikes,” which are then suppressed by the selective use of RAM.
Spectra’s active jamming subsystem uses phased-array antennas located at the roots of the canards. Dassault has stated that the EW transmit antennas can produce a pencil beam compatible with the accuracy of the receiver system, concentrating power on the threat while minimizing the chances of detection.
But there is more to Spectra than conventional jamming. Pierre-Yves Chaltiel, a Thales engineer on the Spectra program, remarked in a 1997 interview that Spectra uses “stealthy jamming modes that not only have a saturating effect, but make the aircraft invisible… There are some very specific techniques to obtain the signature of a real LO [low-observable] aircraft.” When asked if he was talking about active cancellation, Chaltiel declined to answer.
Earlier this year, Thales and European missile-builder MBDA disclosed that they were working on active-cancellation technology for cruise missiles and had already tested it on a small unmanned aerial vehicle, using a combination of active and passive techniques to manage radar signature. This revelation makes it considerably more likely that active cancellation is already being developed for Rafale.
Active cancellation is a LO technique in which the aircraft, when painted by a radar, transmits a signal which mimics the echo that the radar will receive – but one half-wavelength out of phase, so that the radar sees no return at all. The advantage of this technique is that it uses very low power, compared with conventional EW, and provides no clues to the aircraft’s presence; the challenge is that it requires very fast processing and that poorly executed active cancellation could make the target more rather than less visible.
The complexity of active cancellation could account for Spectra’s high price tag, estimated in 1997 as “several billion francs” (equivalent to the high hundreds of millions of US dollars) for research and development. One of four Rafale prototypes was dedicated to Spectra tests, along with a Falcon 20 flying testbed. Four new large anechoic chambers were built to support the Spectra project, including one which is large and well equipped enough to operate the complete system in a fully detailed electromagnetic environment.
Spectra’s RF systems are backed up by a laser-warning system, an optical missile-launch-warning system, and a full range of expendable countermeasures. There is no towed decoy system.
On the weapons side, the F2/05 Rafale will carry the IR version of the MBDA MICA air-to-air missile. The Rafale is unique in being designed around a single missile, MICA, which has been developed in active-radar and IR versions. Both versions feature a data-link to provide mid-course guidance (like AMRAAM) and vectored thrust for short-range agility. Unlike other IR missiles, therefore, MICA can be launched before the seeker locks, on and can perform a completely silent beyond-visual-range attack. The F2/05 will also carry the MBDA Storm Shadow/Scalp cruise missile.
It was then fueled by an A&C article about MACE-X NAto exercise when it was reported that the MystereXX spectra testbed managed to remain undetected from modern SAM site.
That the story of this rumor.
arthuroIn terms of power output there is a difference. Agreed on the rest. I was pointing out that an inboard AESA jammer has less constraint than a missile seeker.
@LM raptor
Thanks for the answer. I am not as knowledgeable about the F22 as for the rafale program, but I remain under the impression that this is about the same kind of story than the active cancelation for the rafale. Highly classified and we don’t know to which extent it works so we can only speculate. At which distance this ID could work against an aircraft with LO feature come to mind etc ? But I don’t pretend to be absolutely right, it is just the interpretation I make with the infos I have.
arthuro@arthuro – I think you are missing the point about the F-22s NG NCTR capabilities. It’s slated be able to paint a RF picture of the threat aircraft with the radar. This is then analysed against all known threat aircraft in its database. Just because an IR sensor can paint a visual ID doesn’t mean an RF sensor can’t.
Ok I understand. Is there any publication/articles about the use of this capability during exercise or tests by the F22. I never heard it was used operationally but I certainly missed something…Is this a theoretical capability or is it used on a regular basis ? For the moment I am under the impression that it is like rumors similar to “active cancelations”. But I would like to stand corrected if I am wrong.
@Jackjack
Stop tolling please and try to bring a useful contribution. Given the substance/quality of your posts you either need to learn some stuff or to grow up because the quality of your inputs is quite poor usually. I say this regardless of your opinion or mine as it is normal to disagree.
arthuroWrightwing,
This isn’t necessarily the case though. It may very well identify its target through NCTR, or through third party info(remember NCW). Additionally, if the Raptor is sanitizing enemy air space, friendlies will probably not be out in front, easing the concerns of fratricide.
Visual identification is still often needed as a radar track is not always enough to positively identify an hostile. In the real world with restrictive NATO ROE and the risk of friendly kill you will probably never see BVR engagement at max range. Here the F22 is at a disadvantage. It was designed in a cold war minset to intercept loads of migs and sukhoi in a full scale/high intensity war. But in medium threat situation where the enemy is unclear and with the existence of civilian aircrafts you will need a positive identification. Rafale OSF can identify an aircraft over 30NM against 3 or 4NM for the F22 pilot eye.
So a rafale will probably be a more usuful BVR platform is some specific conditions.
The question remains though is how much reaction time SPECTRA has? Additionally, while the MICA may have a longer range, that isn’t necessarily important, if the Raptor is able to slip within AIM-9X range before firing. Additionally, the Raptor will be able to exit the kill zone much faster than a foe, making it a much more challenging target for inbound weapons.
In fact SPECTRA main purpose is to jam missiles or medium range SAM site. So yes it is designed to have a reaction time small enough to jam an incoming missile. So it is down to amaram seeker vs spectra which hasn’t the same constraint than the amram seeker and his using AESA antennas and DFRM technology. So the probability to survive from an amram should be quite good I think.
Then the F22 will probably not be able to slip within the mica range for long as the rafale is equipped with an IR sensor. If the amram attack fail and the two aircraft go head on, then a mica IR will be fired at a much greater range than any sidewinder.
Just to say that when you look at the whole kill-chain, there are some weak points that might put the F22 at a risk.
+BVR fights are not always (most of the time) a simple senario where two aircartfs go head on from the same altitude etc etc…In complex environement you often need to indentify your target, not only track it. Rafale might get a good share of opportunity kill exploiting F22 inability to identify a foe from great distance.
arthurothat’s behind the curtain…No offial news or leaks about it…It must be very confidential as any leak could lead to counter offers from other competitors.
arthuroRafale Set to win Brazil’s $4bn Fighter Competition
15 January 2010The French-made Rafale jet is all set to win Brazil’s $4bn next-generation fighter aircraft competition, despite the air force’s preference for the Saab-developed Gripen NG jet.
Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva will finalise the deal with Dassault Aviation to acquire 36 Rafale multirole aircraft, if the company is ready to reduce the price.
Dassault’s Rafale jet has the highest price of the three finalists in the bidding process, which also includes Boeing’s F-18 and Saab’s Gripen NG.
A twin-jet combat aircraft, Rafale is capable of carrying ground and sea attacks, air defence and air superiority, reconnaissance, and high-accuracy strike or nuclear strike deterrence.
Rafale’s air force version can carry payloads of over 9t on 14 hardpoints.
Brazil, which is seeking a technology transfer offer and local assembly for the fighter programme, will eventually increase the number of such fighter aircraft to 100.
arthuroWithout questioning F22 performance it has two drawbacks in my opinion.
It can’t positively identify a threat visually. In many scenarios that would be a handicap as he would need to come a WVR to a target to identify while a rafale can identify a foe over 30NM in good conditions.
The weak point of F22 kill chain is probably the AMRAM. Not that it is a bad BVR weapon but against SPECTRA I bet that rafale probability to survive is not null and not negligible. A BVR missile seeker as far more constraint than integrated AESA jamming antenas in terms of power supply, volume constraint etc…
If the amram option fail then that would be Mica IR vs AIM9 and here no contest…
About the press conference, this will be a far better value than any unnamed sources…No question about it ! especially if it come from Jackonicko 😀
arthuroNothing personal ? lol….speechless
Ok let’s move on good luck with your contacts…On my side I should have at least one source/relative from Thales which is at the head of a division (he was at the Dubai airshow and is a very close colleague/friend to Pierre Yves Chatiel as well as UAE air chief marshall). I’ll try to send you his contact via PM.
arthuroNews :
Lula says he will not leave the decision on fighters for next president
President said that the decision on fighters not trade issue. He said he has not brought it up because the choice depends on it
President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva said on Wednesday (14) that the choice of the fighters is not a question of business policy and that takes into account factors other than the cost of the aircraft. He said he has remained silent on this issue because it is he who will decide in the end.
“The only one who remained silent until now I did. And I was silent because I who have the power to decide And who has the power to decide has more responsibility, does not speak what they want, speak what they can, “he said.
Lula also said that talks with Defense Minister Nelson Jobim, and asked him to report on the three planes that compete for the competition to meet the Brazilian Air Force (FAB): the Swedish Gripen, the American F-18 Super Hornet and the French Rafale, which has the preference of the government.
“When that report is submitted by the Minister Jobim to me, I will take the initiative to convene the Council of Defense, I can take the initiative to have a debate in Congress because the issue of fighters is not about trade policy. There is an eminently economic agreement, I’ll buy one because it is cheaper or I’ll buy another because this is, “he said Lula.
He said the decision involves the national sovereignty and technological sovereignty of the nation. “Obviously going into the question of cost,” Lula recalled.
He said that in no hurry to make the decision, but said it will not leave this issue to the next president.When I went in 2003 I had to make that decision. Turns out I had to choose, or fighting hunger or buy tickets. I chose to fight hunger in the country is why I have not given priority.
According to Lula, Brazil has won “new profile”, where there is room for investment in military technology. “Now we want to turn into a great nation economically, in a great nation and technologically in a nation that has in the defense the proper size of the Brazilian nation,” he said.
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