well if you asked me before I would have put all three contenders very close in this regard before but it seems that the evaluation gave a different result.

I would be more sketical if this report was one sided but it gives some pros and cons to everyone so it could be regarded as relatively reliable as it come from a serious well established brazilian newspaper.

By far the most reliable to date compared to the very tenous infos/rumors we had before !

ok,

I give you the benefit of doubts…And I appologize for my agressivity. Just that it has become too passionate now.

But before throwing pieces of information like this you should introduce you because we had recently the case of mysterious new comers (HME not to name him) which were very probably (there are some striking coincidences) using double avatar. Of course when you have doubts you can’t prove anything so you are always the looser.

When did you met Rut ? in which circomstances etc…that would be a good start also if you wish that someone takes you seriously;)

I have never been banned from a forum in all my life dare 2…unlike you.

I think Tmor, Opit, scorpion82, toan etc etc can attest (I hope:)) from my respectfull manners

I don’t pretend to be a self proclaimed expert…I just try to quote my sources as much as I can;)

someone on another forum digged up some info about “the reliability” of the quoted above source :

http://www.istoe.com.br/reportagens/…O+ADIANTAMENTO

ISTOÉ – Launched in may in 1976– Periodicity: weekly
Daring, inquisitive, ethical. Three words that portray ISTOÉ – a combination of credibility and transparency that make it a unique publication. And it is due to this profile the magazine ranks among the ten major informative publications in the world, having a paramount importance in the history of Brazil and the Brazilian journalism.

http://editora3.terra.com.br/publici…gles/index.htm

500 000 ex., Brazil, weekly. Founded in 1977, “ISTOE” is one of the main brazilian weekly . Critic of the Brazilian society, ISTOÉ is magazine which disturb. Liberal and center left, Istoe is published in São Paulo

basically :

-Rafale leading on technical grounds but it is the most expensive
-Gripen leading on Price but the FAB isn’t sure that SAAB and vixen could deliver the NG on time. Plus the reliability of technical infos given as been called into question.
-SH is a good compromise between the costly rafale and the paper aircraft gripen NG.

One a side not, the rafale is regarded as the stealthiest aircraft among all the contenders.

unfortunately the google translation is not very good but you can still catch the main ideas

The cost of the advance

It takes the government to decide which game will equip the Air Force delays plans for defense of the country and threatens the credibility of the negotiations with the three finalists

Claudio Dantas Smith and Octavio Costa

FIGHTING Factory Dassault: 36 fighters would cost $ 10 billion

The competition for the purchase of 36 fighter jets by the FAB, estimated at $ 10 billion, seems an endless novel. In the latest chapter, the Defense Minister Nelson Jobim announced further postponement in the selection of fighters, this time to January 2010. It said the reasons for and command of the FAB remain silent so as not to break the hierarchy. The cost of this uncertainty is enormous, because it affects not only the credibility of the negotiations and delay the defense plans of the country, which sees its airspace vulnerable. “You can not stay in this litany. Whether the political criterion, either by coach, you need to resolve them, “said retired Colonel Geraldo Cavagnari, the Center for Strategic Studies at Unicamp. He explains that, once decided to purchase, will run six months until the contract is signed. For the analyst of international security Gunther Rudzītis is necessary to prevent a repeat of the failure of the FX program, held over the last year of the Cardoso government, and finally canceled in 2003. Brazil is in urgent need of a generation of fighter aircraft to ensure the safety of the heavens and their wealth in the territorial sea. ISTOÉ obtained confidential details of the offers of the finalists: the French Rafale from Dassault, the American F-18 Super Hornet, Boeing, and the Swedish Gripen NG, the Saab.

The report shows the FAB strengths and weaknesses of each plane using a color code (blue, yellow and red) instead of notes.

Of the three, the French jet introduced technology package more comprehensive and Swedish appears at first sight, had the best price. Your unit value, without the package of armaments and maintenance costs, is U.S. $ 50 million. It would be a good deal, not for the Gripen NG only one project in development. This makes it impossible to calculate their real costs and ensure compliance with deadlines. Despite the expectation of development together with Embraer, the dome of Defense knows that choosing the Gripen NG would be like signing a blank check. FAB this item marked in red. “You can not buy what is on the drawing board,” warns Cavagnari. In fact, the historical records of the airline industry in the world attest to the instability of estimates on a plane is not yet operational. The F-18 Super Hornet, for example, showed average growth of 100% between the amount originally planned pelosfabricantes and the final cost of the project, which reached U.S. $ 9.5 billion.

SHADOWS The French Rafale is a fighter with more ability to remain invisible to enemy radar

Nevertheless, the U.S. fighter is offered today at a stable price of $ 55 million. In the case of the Rafale, to be fully operational, it took 7.5 billion euros (U.S. $ 10.9 billion), a difference of 50% over the initial estimate. Your unit price without arms and support was 94 million euros ($ 136 million) when he began to be sold, but then fell to 54 million euros ($ 78 million). This is the value offered to Brazil in the last proposal and even practiced by Dassault with the French government. Besides the price issue, raised by President Lula during the visit of French counterpart Nicolas Sarkozy ABrasilia in September, is at stake in the term. According Cavagnari, the defense sector is in the process of dismantling advanced, which began in 1995. “We have immediate needs of air power that must be addressed,” he explains. Then there is another problem. FAB to receive the first aircraft in 2014. Who guarantees to deliver the request in a timely manner? Dassault is in the production line of Rafale heated by new orders from the French government, which gives security to meet the deadlines. The Boeingtradição punctuality in sales of F-18. Already a Saab should take eight years to make their hunting operation. For example, the radar that will equip the Gripen began to be developed this year alone.

“To have an idea, Saab develops radar Caesar for the Typhoon fighter for five years and forecast to be ready is 2016. Now they say they can develop a similar radar, the Raven, to equip the Gripen NG, 2011. I find it unlikely, “said the expert Pedro Paulo Rezende. Another important point in the analysis of FAB is the cost of flight-hours. An airplane that consumes too much is not feasible in the long term. The time of flight of the F-18 is $ 11 thousand, while that of the Rafale is U.S. $ 14 mil. Since the Gripen, according to Saab, it would be $ 4 mil. But the Technical Committee of the FX-2 (Copac), from calculations based on data extrapolated maintenance Gripen C / D (prior to version NG), found a very different value: U.S. $ 8 mil. Similarly, Norway and the Netherlands, to assess the Swedish hunting, came to U.S. $ 10 mil. The divergence of information led to the FAB mark this item Gripen in yellow attention. [B]The F-18 won blue for that matter, but reddened under “radar signature”, which means tracking by enemy radar. The Rafale, according to official figures, the game is more “invisible” among competitors.

In a recent mock exercise with the U.S. Navy, the French jets “dropped” six F-18 and lost only two aircraft. The U.S. pilots said they could only see the Rafale on the radar when it was too late to react. Now, who needs to act fast is the Brazilian government.

[/B]

The issue with JL is that he can lie as much as he wants as he never name his sources…

Putting your credibility at stake in the open press is a big difference…It has always been like that with him unnamed vs named (best example is Singapore)

I can’t prove it but I have the conviction that he is somewhat in connection with BAE. I’ve read his articles for several years now (about rafale and typhoon more precisely) and he is certainly not neutral at all when comparing the two aircrafts.
That is no way a crime or something to be blamed for…It’s up to everyone right to have an opinion and I will always respect it but it should be done on an honest basis. When you put arguments forward you can ask for the sources, especially for someone which is supposed to be a journalist.

The ATLC report from the frech ltc colonel grandclaudon (not sure of the spelling) was diffused in the main stream media, was discussed by most notorious defense analysis etc…The range of broadcasting (TV, newspaper, blogs even radio) of this info add to its credibility. It went much further than internet forums or specialized press…

And as you said in the press conference he was quite specific…That’s not a vague statement like “satisfying” etc…he gave some numbers.

It is funny to see that you need much much less than that to start rumors that people take for granted. But when an CO rafale pilot who took piart in ATLC make a statement in an official press conference then everyone is skeptical !!

And guess who wrote that…..I think everyone can find the answer !!

Don’t expect to have anybody quoted with names etc as usual !:rolleyes:

Apsis,

the original source is here (so everyone will have the answer) :

http://typhoon.starstreak.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1842

JL has been BAE (un)official journalist for years. Don’t expect him to write anything positive about the rafale or to give his source name except his friend craig “penrice?” from BAE.
I will be happy to hear the other side of the story but one could expect the same level of credibility then. Giving names and putting people credibility at stake would be a good start !
The best would be to have a report with named sources and a report which comes from someone different than J.Lake. I tell you I will take it seriously…But not JL who recently gave a tribune to BAE to dismiss collins flight test. (that is just one example among many)

Here is the most complete article to date about the status of the evaluation of the three contenders. And it is quite balanced between the three contenders It goes in some details

From what is revealed the Rafale is leading the technical evaluation while the Gripen NG is leading on Price. But the FAB is skeptical about SAAB and Vixen ability to be able to meet deadlines and respect projected maintenance costs, so the F18SH could be a good alternative. It seems that rafale’s price can’t decrease anymore in the negociation which is a (very) bad point.

An another interesting point about the evaluation : the rafale is the stealthiest of the competition !!

Also SAAB is beeing punished for delivering inacurate to good to be true datas…The SH is considered to be the most reliable for that matter.

The google translation of this Portugeese article is not very good. If a Portugeese speaker could improve this it would be welcome:)

http://www.istoe.com.br/reportagens/32608_O+CUSTO+DO+ADIANTAMENTO

The cost of the advance

It takes the government to decide which game will equip the Air Force delays plans for defense of the country and threatens the credibility of the negotiations with the three finalists

Claudio Dantas Smith and Octavio Costa

FIGHTING Factory Dassault: 36 fighters would cost $ 10 billion

The competition for the purchase of 36 fighter jets by the FAB, estimated at $ 10 billion, seems an endless novel. In the latest chapter, the Defense Minister Nelson Jobim announced further postponement in the selection of fighters, this time to January 2010. It said the reasons for and command of the FAB remain silent so as not to break the hierarchy. The cost of this uncertainty is enormous, because it affects not only the credibility of the negotiations and delay the defense plans of the country, which sees its airspace vulnerable. “You can not stay in this litany. Whether the political criterion, either by coach, you need to resolve them, “said retired Colonel Geraldo Cavagnari, the Center for Strategic Studies at Unicamp. He explains that, once decided to purchase, will run six months until the contract is signed. For the analyst of international security Gunther Rudzītis is necessary to prevent a repeat of the failure of the FX program, held over the last year of the Cardoso government, and finally canceled in 2003. Brazil is in urgent need of a generation of fighter aircraft to ensure the safety of the heavens and their wealth in the territorial sea. ISTOÉ obtained confidential details of the offers of the finalists: the French Rafale from Dassault, the American F-18 Super Hornet, Boeing, and the Swedish Gripen NG, the Saab.

The report shows the FAB strengths and weaknesses of each plane using a color code (blue, yellow and red) instead of notes.

Of the three, the French jet introduced technology package more comprehensive and Swedish appears at first sight, had the best price. Your unit value, without the package of armaments and maintenance costs, is U.S. $ 50 million. It would be a good deal, not for the Gripen NG only one project in development. This makes it impossible to calculate their real costs and ensure compliance with deadlines. Despite the expectation of development together with Embraer, the dome of Defense knows that choosing the Gripen NG would be like signing a blank check. FAB this item marked in red. “You can not buy what is on the drawing board,” warns Cavagnari. In fact, the historical records of the airline industry in the world attest to the instability of estimates on a plane is not yet operational. The F-18 Super Hornet, for example, showed average growth of 100% between the amount originally planned pelosfabricantes and the final cost of the project, which reached U.S. $ 9.5 billion.

SHADOWS The French Rafale is a fighter with more ability to remain invisible to enemy radar

Nevertheless, the U.S. fighter is offered today at a stable price of $ 55 million. In the case of the Rafale, to be fully operational, it took 7.5 billion euros (U.S. $ 10.9 billion), a difference of 50% over the initial estimate. Your unit price without arms and support was 94 million euros ($ 136 million) when he began to be sold, but then fell to 54 million euros ($ 78 million). This is the value offered to Brazil in the last proposal and even practiced by Dassault with the French government. Besides the price issue, raised by President Lula during the visit of French counterpart Nicolas Sarkozy ABrasilia in September, is at stake in the term. According Cavagnari, the defense sector is in the process of dismantling advanced, which began in 1995. “We have immediate needs of air power that must be addressed,” he explains. Then there is another problem. FAB to receive the first aircraft in 2014. Who guarantees to deliver the request in a timely manner? Dassault is in the production line of Rafale heated by new orders from the French government, which gives security to meet the deadlines. The Boeingtradição punctuality in sales of F-18. Already a Saab should take eight years to make their hunting operation. For example, the radar that will equip the Gripen began to be developed this year alone.

“To have an idea, Saab develops radar Caesar for the Typhoon fighter for five years and forecast to be ready is 2016. Now they say they can develop a similar radar, the Raven, to equip the Gripen NG, 2011. I find it unlikely, “said the expert Pedro Paulo Rezende. Another important point in the analysis of FAB is the cost of flight-hours. An airplane that consumes too much is not feasible in the long term. The time of flight of the F-18 is $ 11 thousand, while that of the Rafale is U.S. $ 14 mil. Since the Gripen, according to Saab, it would be $ 4 mil. But the Technical Committee of the FX-2 (Copac), from calculations based on data extrapolated maintenance Gripen C / D (prior to version NG), found a very different value: U.S. $ 8 mil. Similarly, Norway and the Netherlands, to assess the Swedish hunting, came to U.S. $ 10 mil. The divergence of information led to the FAB mark this item Gripen in yellow attention. The F-18 won blue for that matter, but reddened under “radar signature”, which means tracking by enemy radar. The Rafale, according to official figures, the game is more “invisible” among competitors.

In a recent mock exercise with the U.S. Navy, the French jets “dropped” six F-18 and lost only two aircraft. The U.S. pilots said they could only see the Rafale on the radar when it was too late to react. Now, who needs to act fast is the Brazilian government.