arthuroWe have no internal sources for any contenders being the favourite that the point. If it was the case that would’nt really be a rumor.
In fact rumors for one or another aicraft usually starts from each manufacturers advertisement : Gripen NG being the best offer commercially, the rafale offering a wide ToT on many areas and being a “proven” solution, the SH offering very agressive offsets etc…Then many journalists started to write about the FX2 competition and depending on the article they put one or another aircraft forward.
I think a wise approach is to wait a litlle bit. I am confident that we will get more precise infos in the future. For the moment I’ve haven’t seen anything really serious stating that one aircrafts was the favourite of the FAB exept speculation. That might change in the future. Just need to be patient !
arthuroWait and see…Don’t be too fast in your conclusions. There are as much reasons to keep the secret if the rafale was favored or not. I’ve seen rumors stating that it was the SH that was favored as well as the rafale or the gripen for that matter.
arthuroHoppefully we will soon hear about that !
There are some good independent defense journalist sources which will certainly give some nice infos such as these two blogs. They usually have very good contacts.
arthuroabsolutely fantastic pics right here :
http://www.foxalpha.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8692&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=440
arthuroNow that there are less polemics, time for some pics !
arthuroA small addition. In case someone is wondering why the map generated is displayed both in the MFD and the HLD (Head Level Display). The HLD diplays image with focus in the infinite. This is to facilitate especially in night missions, the eye focusing.
Thanx again for the summary. This item was adpoted on the rafale as well. The fact that it is located just under the HUD enable the pilot to maintain “head up” (just a glance is sufficient, no need to move your head). The visual circuit is much easier and quicker.
It helps to maintain a better SA especially when you know the load of info available to the pilot which can make him look to his screen most of the time forgetting the outside world when the tactical display is down in the cokpit.
arthurothanx ! A pitty it in a greek for me !:o
What are the interesting points raised ?
arthuroyou are right about that…But it is now “95%” certain that it will be signed.
arthuroOfficial now : rafale F1 to be retrofitted to F3 standard. Cost 300 millions euros.
http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.fr/defense/2009/11/quand-les-rafale-sortent-de-leur-cocon.html
La Marine nationale va pouvoir sortir de leurs cocons ses neuf Rafale actuellement stockés sur la base aéronavale de Landivisiau (Finistère) dans des hangarettes à hygrométrie constante. En visite sur le porte-avions Charles-de-Gaulle, le ministre de la défense Hervé a annoncé que 300 millions d’euros allaient être débloqués pour financer le “retrofit” de ses appareils. Ces Rafale de standard F1 sont la première version de l’appareil, uniquement doté de capacités air-air. Son système informatique est très différent des versions ultérieures (F2 et F3). Ils seront portés au standard F3, le plus moderne. Un dixième Rafale F1 serait également concerné.
La Marine possède aujourd’hui seize Rafale en ligne, au sein de la flottille 12 F. Ses avions modernisés devraient aller à la 11F, aujourd’hui équipées de Super-Etendard.
Cette annonce devrait contribuer à détendre les relations entre la Marine et l’Armée de l’air, qui doivent se partager les rares Rafale neufs sortant, au rythme d’environ un par mois, des chaînes de production de Dassault.
with the 60 rafale ordered this is a nice news !
arthuroHonestly I’ve lost track on aircraft prices and I usually don’t get in these debates. My experience is that it is quite easy to manipulate figures (from a financial analyst point).
I usually stick to the senate or national assembly reports from the defense commission (composed of MP from the ruling party but also the oppositions parties). And that a point where there is usually a consensus : the inflation of the rafale programme was contained.
I am more interested in the science of firm organisation to achieve lower costs. I’ve seen on other firms (I don’t audit Dassault unfortunately but I have other interesting aeronautic and defense industry clients) how it is possible to be way over budget and consume a lot of ressources or how to be a performer. Behind all this nice speeches/declaration, experience, corporate culture, and the way knowledge is passed to everyone are the prime factor of success in my opinion.
Experience and corporate culture in not something you can duplicate easily.
The case based study which is taught in most MBAs or masters is Ryannair vs convetionnal airlines. Or the success of wallmart. they just managed to redifine the rule of their own industry and create a new business model.
This article also reminds me that kind of case based studies and explains how Dassault is able to create a competitive advantage from its organisation structure, experience and corporate culture. What could be considered as a weakness is turned into a strenght. How A lean, adaptable and small structure can compete with multinational. such as Boeing, EADS or BAE is quite interesting. Dassault Aviation is litteraly a single nation SME compared to those groups.
arthuroIt’s a universal law of aircraft design, that drag doesn’t increase linearly with aircraft weight. As a result, larger/heavier aircraft will have better payload/range performance than smaller aircraft, assuming a similar aerodynamic configuration. The rationale for this is that when you scale up an aircraft’s size, you can get a higher internal fuel fraction and/or less relative drag.
This is true size always matter.
Especially for weapon loadings.
At equal weapon payload rafale performance will decrease much slower that of the gripen…a 3t payload for instance is much smaller for the rafale than for the gripen in comparison.
Just an example : a rafale with 2 SCALPS or 6 LGB/AASM will have a significant advantage over a gripen in terms of range if the gripen wants to carry approx the same load (Taurus or lgbs). 3*2000L doesn’t hurt…
arthuroI will try to imprve this time:D:)
The Secrets of Low-Rate, Low-Cost Rafale Production
November 15, 2009
Aerospace Industry, DefenseHow can the Rafale be produced–and offered for export–at an economic price when the production rate is only about one aircraft per month? Official French statistics give a unit production cost of only ?64- to ?70 million in 2008 prices, depending on variant, excluding amortization of development costs, but including value-added tax of 19.6 percent (which would not be payable on export aircraft).
According to Guy Piras, the Dassault executive vice president for industrial operations, the answer lies in a combination of leadership style, up-front investment and shop-floor expertise.
Piras told AIN that clear design leadership, to an agreed technical language, by a team that also extends to manufacturing engineering is very important. This is a familiar Dassault theme. “But we make a big effort on the nonrecurring costs. Just like the automobile industry, we invest heavily in manufacturing engineering,” Piras also noted. This includes the flow-through of digital data from design to manufacturing. The Rafale was the first combat jet to be industrialized from a digital mockup. Dassault has been the world leader in aerospace digital design–indeed, it has exported CATIA systems that have been used to design competitors to the Rafale.
“We use the minimum of tools, but the very best ones, together with the best possible working instructions,” Piras continued. Dassault switches tooling between products more than other airplane companies, he believes. Final assembly of the Rafale and of the Dassault Falcon business jets are both done at Bordeaux.
“Our people are very important to us,” said Piras. “We educate them, and they are craftsmen and experts in their domain. We provide the best possible working instructions. But we don’t have to tell them how to drill a rivet or what tools to use. They know that already.”
Unlike most competitors, Dassault manufactures its own flight controls in a dedicated facility at Argonay. The company also designs robotic engineering tools, from the CATIA system, and programs them, as well as designing and making all its own tool bits.
The Rafale is entirely French-made. Two Dassault sites–at Argenteuil (forward fuselage) and Martignas (wings)–are key cogs in the production wheel. The aft fuselage is subcontracted to Latécoère, “a long-standing and trusted supplier,” according to Piras.
Unless current plans change, the French defense ministry will eventually order 286 Rafales. Since the program started, this total has been reduced by only eight aircraft, in order to pay for the “F3-Plus” development. The contract for a further 60 aircraft, bringing the total on firm order to 180, was approved by the government last Thursday. Production is not to end until 2023.
According to the French defense ministry, despite the slow pace of orders and the consequent need to replace obsolescent parts more often than originally planned, the overall cost of the Rafale program (development and production) increased by only 4.45 percent between 1996 and 2007. It is now ?39.6 billion in 2008 prices. This is a remarkable record, especially when compared to the Eurofighter Typhoon, to which the four partner nations committed in the belief that there was strength and efficiency in numbers. However, Dassault officials cautioned AIN that inflation was taking its toll in the Rafale program. Against this, there is the serious prospect of export orders, which will increase the production rate and help amortize the cost of future development.
http://www.ainonline.com/news/single…le-production/
For me that article is very interesting and that talk to me directly. As an auditor in one of the big four (mainly for aeronautic industry) I know these problematics quite well !
arthuroon a less polemic note it is interesting to see that the stored F1 will be soon upgraded to the F3 standard.
arthuroPointless arguing Jackonicko…Why can’t you say something positive ?
Why should I Believe BAE and not Dassault (or the opposite for that matter)…? So when craig or a RAF pilot says something its the truth and when its from a rafale pilot or someone from dassault it is a mere lie…?
Take a bird eye view and admitt that there are two versions of the story…I think it is possible to live with it. Look, even the poor rafale fanboy that I am can do it ! So you should try…And it will help you to live in peace.
take a breath and relax…
arthuroFrance plays the long game for Dassault Rafale exports
By: Chris Pocock
November 15, 2009
DefenseThe Dassault Rafale combat jet may yet prove to be an export winner, despite no such orders being placed to date. The OEM is negotiating a contract with the United Arab Emirates air force, and Kuwait has formally expressed interest in the aircraft. The all-French jet, marketed by the Rafale team, which is composed of engine-maker Snecma and electronics group Thales as well as Dassault itself, is a front-runner in current competitions in Brazil and Switzerland and is one of six contenders in India.
What are the attractions of the Rafale that make it such a strong contender? It is more operationally mature and versatile than its key European rival, the four-nation Eurofighter Typhoon. It is offered for export with fewer restrictions on the transfer and employment of its technology than its U.S. rivals–the F-15, F-16 or F/A-18–and, to meet French requirements alone, it now seems likely to remain in production far longer than any of those jets. Also, despite the low production rate to date, Team Rafale seems able to compete on price, thanks to a lean and experienced organization.
The Rafale was first deployed in support of NATO troops in Afghanistan in 2005. Those aircraft flew from the aircraft carrier Charles De Gaulle, and among the small initial batch of F1 standard aircraft delivered to the French Navy in 2004 for air-superiority missions. The F2 standard quickly followed, introducing a more capable mission computer and air-ground capability, including the large MBDA Scalp air-to-surface missile. The French air force began dropping GBU-12 laser-guided bombs in close-air-support missions over Afghanistan in March 2007. One year later, the Rafale was back in theater with the new Safran (Sagem) AASM modular “smart” bomb.
“Some people in ISAF [the International Security Assistance Force] have described the AASM as ‘the magic bomb,’” said Jean-Marc Gasparini, the Rafale program director at Dassault Aviation. The AASM (air-to-ground modular weapon) is a 550-pound glide bomb that can be launched from high or low altitude at depression angles of more than 90 degrees, and can reach targets more than 30 miles from the launch platform. Initial production versions were guided by GPS/INS alone, but an infrared seeker is now being added to provide accuracy down to one meter. The AASM can also be equipped with a laser seeker, making it the only weapon of its kind.
F3 “Omnirole” Version
Gasparini told AIN that the next deployment of Rafales to Afghanistan will be to the F3 standard, which entered service in France last year. The F3 is the “omnirole” version, which by 2011 is to be additionally capable of firing AM-39 Exocet Block 2 anti-ship missiles and the ASMP-A nuclear strike missile. The Thales Damocles IR/laser navigation and targeting pod and the Thales Areos reconnaissance pod (previously known as Reco-NG) are also part of the F3 upgrade. All previously delivered French Rafales are being upgraded to the F3 standard, including the 10 Navy F1s, for which a contract is imminent, according to Gasparini.The F3 standard also introduced improvements to the Rafale’s electronic warfare system called Spectra and designed jointly by MBDA and Thales. These improvements include the ability to cue the aircraft’s Front Sector Optronics (FSO) sensor to potential targets, thereby providing a fully passive means of detection. The full functionality of the Rafale’s Thales RBE2 fire-control radar system was also achieved with F3, including submeter resolution in the synthetic aperture model.
Gasparini noted that the F3 was originally the “ultimate” version of the Rafale, as far as the French government was concerned. But technology moves on, and France is now funding the development of an “F3-Plus” standard, which will include an active-array version of the RBE2; a new missile warning system from MBDA; further improvements to the FSO; integration of MBDA’s new Meteor air-to-air missile and the GBU-24 Paveway III “smart” bomb; and a new-generation version of the Snecma M88-2 powerplant that will deliver lower life-cycle costs. This new package of improvements is to be available from 2012.
Electronically Scanned Array
The RBE2 was designed from the outset with an electronically scanned array (ESA). For years, the Rafale team touted the technical advantages for a multirole combat jet of an ESA versus a mechanically scanned array, such as the ability to switch seamlessly between air-to-air and air-to-ground tasks. The French air force and navy were finally convinced. Team Rafale is now emphasizing to export customers the additional performance and redundancy offered by the active array and the relative ease of upgrading the RBE2 with the new technology.The Rafale’s two M88-2 turbofans deliver a maximum 17,000 pounds of thrust each. Competitors have claimed that the Rafale is underpowered. But the French air force and navy are evidently happy with the aircraft’s performance and they have declined to fund development of an increase in the thrust of the M88. Instead, it seems that the UAE will pick up the tab, boosting the M88 to 20,000 pounds to improve the aircraft’s hot-and-high performance. However, Gasparini told AIN that the Rafale’s ability to take off with the existing powerplants in a “heavy” configuration comprising two Scalp anti-ship missiles and three fuel tanks had already been demonstrated in Abu Dhabi under the hottest conditions.
Interoperability is a key selling point for any modern combat jet. Does the Rafale’s French nationality confer a disadvantage here? Gasparini noted that the jet has already been equipped with Link 16 to receive and transmit tactical information, and the improved data modem to transmit images to the ground. The Rafale squadrons of the French air force and navy have fully participated in various NATO exercises, but the ability to downlink target video to U.S.-supplied Rover laptops held by forward air controllers has become the de facto standard in Afghanistan this year, he admitted. There is no problem adding this capability to the Rafale, but there were bureaucratic delays in achieving the necessary transatlantic agreement, Gasparini said. “Now that we have the ‘ticket’ for ROVER, we can quickly integrate,” he added.
Service Support
No one buys an expensive warplane these days without understanding how much more it might cost to support the jet in service. French warplanes have not enjoyed the best of reputations in this regard. Last June, however, Dassault announced the signing of an in-service support contract with the French defense ministry. It is a 10-year “by-the-hour” deal whereby the French air force and navy will pay for only the number of hours actually flown. However, the new style agreement covers only those aspects of the Rafale for which Dassault is responsible; the French government is still negotiating similar flat-rate deals for support of the Rafale with Snecma and Thales. Similar support contracts are on offer to export customers, Gasparini told AIN.No one in the French camp expects the UAE to close a deal for the Rafale at this Dubai Airshow. Indeed, caution is the watchword in Paris after some previous disappointments. Dassault officials are convinced that the Rafale was a clear winner of the new fighter evaluations in both Korea and Singapore–until superpower politics intervened. Both countries selected the F-15 Strike Eagle instead. As Dassault chairman and CEO Charles Edelstenne noted at the last Paris Air Show: “Our teams are in discussion with a lot of countries, and enjoy the full support of the President of the Republic. However, we must be wary of crying victory too soon
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