And you believe it ? When all sources say 1000. That’s not serious.

Ok so to there is still work to be done to match first tier AESA fighter radars. Remember that it’s not me that his calling into question gripen NG radar performance but Brazil and India.

You cannot draw serious conclusions with you own rethoric because it is based on nothing serious. A simple answer you can’t answer in depth is what amount of the work done on other AESA radars (be it Selex or Thales) can be transfered on first tier AESA fighter radars.
So you only stay at the surface of things with the assumption that AESA radars are like legos, so if you have developped one you just put its scaled up antenna on another one et voilà ! But reality seems more complex…Why 3 to 4 years to get an operationnal gripen AESA radar then ?

Arthuro,

You have been told many many times that both Saab and Selex started working on AESA technology many years ago. You have seen the links in other threads.

Selex already has production AESA radars ready today, that you can buy!

It’s not like they started yesterday.

But the situation is exactly the same for Thales. They have AESA radar that you can buy right now (Besides spectra which is operational on the rafale already uses AESA antennas). So there is no head start and thus I don’t see the point of this argument. We are talking about fighter AESA radar which requires their own development. Bottomline is that Selex ability to provide an fighter AESA radar for Brazilian time frame has been called into question. They have all the ressources and the skills to field a performant fighter AESA radar just that they need time.

I believe that it was delay by the Eurofighter partner governments that led to late availability of AESA on Typhoon. IIRC initial AESA development was undertaken on a private basis (ie without government funding). I imagine this was because Eurofighter foresaw problems marketing the the Typhoon without an AESA but knew that an order would be forthcoming eventually from the partner governments.

I totally agree with you. I am not saying by any mean that Selex is not able to field a good fighter AESA radar in the coming years. They just need time to develop it. Just that some would like to believe that Gripen NG radar which development started several years after rafale’s could catch up in an eye blink with super performances while others will be waiting arms crossed.
So I recalled that reports from 3 differente sources who had a direct access to FAB evaluations quoted “doubts on the performance of the radar”. (Un)surprinsingly the Timenow leakage report that the same issue about gripen’s radar.
Their are certainly wrong in their conclusions to knwo which aircraft is in or out the tender because based on incomplete view of the situation but some details like this one is troubling.

most recent source from Correiro Brasiliense :

Correio Brasiliense, Auguts 2

Technical report confirms Rafale

Preferred “policy” of President Lula, French airliner wins backing after changes in evaluation criteria of the Ministry of Defence
[…]
It has been over a year and a half since the three finalists – Dassault, Boeing and the American Swedish Saab – calls delivered final offers, or Breath (English best and final Offers), the Air Force Command. Since then, the Copac examined in depth the proposals in relation to the specifications of the fighters, technology transfer, offset (compensatory) and the purchase price and maintenance, among other items. The first report that reached the High Command of the Air Force brought the Swedish Gripen NG as the best option, but had requested a review by the leadership of the FAB to increase the weight of the risks already mentioned in the text. The report said there are doubts as to the performance of radar and operational costs of the engine of Gripen NG – these issues had been virtually discarded in this time of evaluation.

The first amendment, which doubled from 5 to 10 that weight, did the American F-18 Super Hornet, which is considerably cheaper than the Rafale and less risky than the Swede to take the lead in the report delivered in December the Ministry of Defence . However It was the turn of the MOD for asking for new changes in the evaluation parameters, which were still the same as the first competition, launched by the FAB in 1995. The ministry’s main concern was to increase the importance of technology transfer, which was worth so far only nine of 100 points, to value the proposals that would bring more opportunities for the Brazilian industry, as envisaged by the END.

With the weight of technology transfer now on 40 points, the French proposal, which gained notice in August, went ahead of the US-based Boeing, which has only two notes in this regard. The Gripen NG, offered by the Swedish Saab, was one point ahead of the Rafale in question but did not win mainly because of risks and the offset factors – that the French game “took” after a commitment by President Sarkozy to buy 12 units of cargo KC -390, which is being developed by Embraer.

Costs

The high price of the Rafale, which was the main obstacle of the French proposal was also compensated by the change of the weights of evaluation sent by the High Command of Aeronautics. The weight of the fighters total cost , worth 50% of the final, fell by half in the new text. The French government also reduced the price of each unit – 64 million to 60 million euros (about $ 83.7 million and $ 78.5 million, respectively), but even so, he remained the most expensive with the Gripen NG estimated at U.S. $ 50 million and the F-18, U.S. $ 55 million.

The Ministry of Defence would not confirm the conclusion of the explanatory memorandum, and not pinpoint exactly when the document is delivered to the president. The decision will be announced after Lula evaluate the text with the National Defence Council. Given the proximity of elections and the possibility that the choice to be used by the opposition in the race, it is speculated that the winner will be in fact only known after the election.
[…]

From Rezende, a brazilian law officer and defense journalist :

Because of complaints that came to my knowledge I went to check on the ground if there were changes in the report issued by the Navy regarding the use of the Rafale on board the Sampa [Sao Paulo aircraft carrier]. Monday afternoon, friends of MB [Brazilian Navy] and FAB gave me access to the document submitted to Defence Minister and which contains the explanatory memorandum which will be submitted to President Lula.

The signature of the commanders of the two forces certifies that they are original. Some points:

1. From the Sao Paulo, the Rafale can operate with only 40% of its capacity [payload], which could be minimized with a refueling after takeoff;
2. The F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is unable to operate our aircraft carrier. Its dry weight is beyond the capacity of the wiring, Its length is greater than that of elevators and catapults would not be able to launch it;
3. Even the Gripen navy, which exists only in theory, can only function with a capacity of 80%.

The document prepared by the Navy contains verbatim the explanatory memorandum and indicates that the 3 would operate smoothly with the future aircraft carrier class of 50000 tons to be operated by the Navy. This material, prepared by COPAC and reviewed by the High Command of Aeronautics has been valided. What has changed are the weights assigned to each element. A good example: in the original settings, established in 1995, the weight of technology transfer was 9%. In contrast, the weight of price and maintenance costs were 30 and 40%. No wonder the F/A-18E/F was the winners of the process. The generals have pushed the engineers to accept what they had established themselves as a rule! Jobim returned because that does not meet the assumptions of the new END [national defense strategy .. which favors technological independance]

In the new criteria established with the national defense strategy, the technology package is now worth 40%. It is worth noting that the recalculation of the scores have been prepared by COPAC. In the process, ended 75 days ago [!], the Rafale has emerged as the winner because it has scored regularly on all points.[…] Others competitors scored excellent on some points, but showed a weak performance [latimavel?] in others.

The Super Hornet has been heavily penalized by U.S. law, which prohibits the government from establishing compensation with other states. Everything depends only from the manufacturers, who can not afford the purchase of aircraft for the armed forces of Uncle Sam, for example. For its part, the Gripen present higher risks, according COPAC itself . The Swedes could not even show a spreadsheet about the costs of the F-414 because it was copyrighted by the U.S. Navy. Just to give you an idea, the volume of pages about this issue is equivalent to the amount of pages used to describe the risks of the two others competitors.
There are doubts about the performance of the radar, on the sustainability of the cell, on the implementation of the program and also some devastating certainties, like the fact that, with limited interior space and a lower capacity of energy production , the Gripen offers smaller developments than its competitors. Boys, I read it: written by Copac itself! Furthermore, it was rated slightly higher than the Rafale on the issue of technology transfer, but not enough to overcome its weaknesses and achieve trade compensation by france, which guarantees the purchase of 12 KC-390 and the participation of Dassault in the Embraer program.

About the explanatory memorandum, it is a masterpiece from a methodological point of view. Each phrase refers to an attached document, including the explanatory memorandum sent in December by the Air Force Command, which uses color coding to highlight the strengths, weaknesses, and the median for each unit … [Exactly what said Istoe… some leaks were more credible than others ..]

For health reasons, I moved away from the forums. […] I hope I have been helpful to the debate.

Moreover, the Navy will operate 48 aircraft on its two units in the future.

Abracos

Pepe

From Istoe : (small mistake from the journalist who quoted Rezende about radar manufacturer but the message is consistent, he probably had some issue with his notes)

The cost of the advance

It takes the government to decide which game will equip the Air Force delays plans for defense of the country and threatens the credibility of the negotiations with the three finalists

Claudio Dantas Smith and Octavio Costa

FIGHTING Factory Dassault: 36 fighters would cost $ 10 billion

The competition for the purchase of 36 fighter jets by the FAB, estimated at $ 10 billion, seems an endless novel. In the latest chapter, the Defense Minister Nelson Jobim announced further postponement in the selection of fighters, this time to January 2010. It said the reasons for and command of the FAB remain silent so as not to break the hierarchy. The cost of this uncertainty is enormous, because it affects not only the credibility of the negotiations and delay the defense plans of the country, which sees its airspace vulnerable. “You can not stay in this litany. Whether the political criterion, either by coach, you need to resolve them, “said retired Colonel Geraldo Cavagnari, the Center for Strategic Studies at Unicamp. He explains that, once decided to purchase, will run six months until the contract is signed. For the analyst of international security Gunther Rudzītis is necessary to prevent a repeat of the failure of the FX program, held over the last year of the Cardoso government, and finally canceled in 2003. Brazil is in urgent need of a generation of fighter aircraft to ensure the safety of the heavens and their wealth in the territorial sea. ISTOÉ obtained confidential details of the offers of the finalists: the French Rafale from Dassault, the American F-18 Super Hornet, Boeing, and the Swedish Gripen NG, the Saab.

The report shows the FAB strengths and weaknesses of each plane using a color code (blue, yellow and red) instead of notes.

Of the three, the French jet introduced technology package more comprehensive and Swedish appears at first sight, had the best price. Your unit value, without the package of armaments and maintenance costs, is U.S. $ 50 million. It would be a good deal, not for the Gripen NG only one project in development. This makes it impossible to calculate their real costs and ensure compliance with deadlines. Despite the expectation of development together with Embraer, the dome of Defense knows that choosing the Gripen NG would be like signing a blank check. FAB this item marked in red. “You can not buy what is on the drawing board,” warns Cavagnari. In fact, the historical records of the airline industry in the world attest to the instability of estimates on a plane is not yet operational. The F-18 Super Hornet, for example, showed average growth of 100% between the amount originally planned pelosfabricantes and the final cost of the project, which reached U.S. $ 9.5 billion.

SHADOWS The French Rafale is a fighter with more ability to remain invisible to enemy radar

Nevertheless, the U.S. fighter is offered today at a stable price of $ 55 million. In the case of the Rafale, to be fully operational, it took 7.5 billion euros (U.S. $ 10.9 billion), a difference of 50% over the initial estimate. Your unit price without arms and support was 94 million euros ($ 136 million) when he began to be sold, but then fell to 54 million euros ($ 78 million). This is the value offered to Brazil in the last proposal and even practiced by Dassault with the French government. Besides the price issue, raised by President Lula during the visit of French counterpart Nicolas Sarkozy ABrasilia in September, is at stake in the term. According Cavagnari, the defense sector is in the process of dismantling advanced, which began in 1995. “We have immediate needs of air power that must be addressed,” he explains. Then there is another problem. FAB to receive the first aircraft in 2014. Who guarantees to deliver the request in a timely manner? Dassault is in the production line of Rafale heated by new orders from the French government, which gives security to meet the deadlines. The Boeingtradição punctuality in sales of F-18. Already a Saab should take eight years to make their hunting operation. For example, the radar that will equip the Gripen began to be developed this year alone.

]”To have an idea, Saab develops radar Caesar for the Typhoon fighter for five years and forecast to be ready is 2016. Now they say they can develop a similar radar, the Raven, to equip the Gripen NG, 2011. I find it unlikely, “said the expert Pedro Paulo Rezende. Another important point in the analysis of FAB is the cost of flight-hours. An airplane that consumes too much is not feasible in the long term. The time of flight of the F-18 is $ 11 thousand, while that of the Rafale is U.S. $ 14 mil. Since the Gripen, according to Saab, it would be $ 4 mil. But the Technical Committee of the FX-2 (Copac), from calculations based on data extrapolated maintenance Gripen C / D (prior to version NG), found a very different value: U.S. $ 8 mil. Similarly, Norway and the Netherlands, to assess the Swedish hunting, came to U.S. $ 10 mil. The divergence of information led to the FAB mark this item Gripen in yellow attention. The F-18 won blue for that matter, but reddened under “radar signature”, which means tracking by enemy radar. The Rafale, according to official figures, the game is more “invisible” among competitors.

And to finish rewatch the Timenow video…Troubling

1. I was referring to an official press release. A company like Selex cannot lie in press releases, not if they want to stay in business and out of trouble.

You are living in dreamland. Just read it again and tell me why they are still far of operational stage ? Companies are no saints and are able for most of them (in the defense sector) to bribe if needed. So I am not buying the “if its writtten it must be true”

2. You are referring to unconfirmed rumors, some of which probably have the same source.

Absolutely not. The three brazilian sources calling into question Gripen NG radar performance (Istoe, Rezende, Correio Brasiliense) are referring directly to the FAB technical evaluation they had access to “signed by the two commanders of the airforce”. So sure it comes from the same source and this is THE source. Troubling that first indian leakage reported this “poor perfromance” as well which makes me believe that if their conclusion is innacurate and based on uncomplete pieces of informations some details they got could be true.

3. Selex has already fielded modern AESA radars… I suggest you visit their web page. Of course nobody can make their first AESA in a couple of years

Just like Thales. So no advantage here. If it was so simple for Selex why waiting so long ? There must be a reason. Use your common sense

As I read, it is a prototype flying in the gripen NG right now and first preproduction radar for the NG will be ready in the end of 2011. First operational radars should be ready in 2013-14. And this 2013-14 time frame as been called into question by the Brazilian (Istoe) for example.

DATE:20/07/10
SOURCE:Flight Daily News
FARNBOROUGH: Gripen NG to fly in for show debut
By Craig Hoyle

[…]

With the current gap in flight testing, the NG’s prototype Raven 1000P active electronically scanned array radar has been removed following the aircraft’s return from India, and is now with Selex Galileo in Edinburgh, Scotland. The company will deliver its first pre-production radar to Saab in the third quarter of 2011.

Selex vice-president marketing and sales Bob Mason says the Raven’s high-resolution synthetic aperture radar was assessed during the test campaign, along with its air-to-air search capabilities.

Saab-led Gripen International says its two-seat demonstrator had flown 175 times before arriving in the UK. Also featuring a more powerful engine, extended-range performance and an expanded range of air-launched weapons, the aircraft made its first flight in May 2008.

It meand that Gripen AESA has flown way less than 175 times on the gripen. Compare this with three pre-production AESA rafale flying since 2006 in France.

Seems strange that Thales is producing AESA radars in August this year that will be installed next year….Not exactly Just In Time production…

2011 is just a few monthes from now. The RBE2 delivered is a fully developped radar which will fly operationnaly on rafale.

Release of the first standard AESA
Le Mammouth, August 11

After nine years of research and prototypes, Thales proceed this month to the industrial rate for its AESA radar, the first production model is due out from factory in August.

Thales launched in 2001 into this technology, so far only mastered by the American radar operators, which should be also incontrovertible for future UAVs.

One billion euros have been invested with public and private funds. The result should give a more operational Rafale, but also, of course, a key commercial asset.(1)

Switzerland seems to have been one of the first air forces to evaluate a Rafale equipped with it , as probably Brazil and the UAE. [he forgot India]
The first AESA Rafale flew in 2006. Three pre-production radars were made and mounted on a Air force Rafale, a Navy Rafale and an aircraft used for trials by Dassault Aviation.

Production rates in this high-technology is still relatively low, as Thales expects to produce one AESA radar by month in its cleanrooms of Pessac (Gironde), on the basis of one customer -French- present anyway.
60 AESA radar has been ordered for the fourth tranche of the Rafale.
All airborne radar fitted on Dassault fighters awere built in Pessac, since the site opened in 1975.

(1] so much determinant that Thales abandonned the idea to provide it to the Swedish Saab which planned to integrate it on its Gripen[…]

Yes Blue Apple is correct. We are talking of production and operational radar delivered right now (RBE2 AESA) versus pre-production radar delivered in 2011.

Fact is the gripen NG radar performance is criticized in the Brazilian evaluation.
Troubling that the same point surfaces in india. That makes me believe that this leakage although inacurate in its conclusion has some truth in the details.

The fact that when developped it will be more modern than some other competitors is still to be proven. A simple hardware and software iteration could help to keep the lead.
Its overoptimistic to believe that others will wait, arms crossed, that other are catching up…The new road map in AESA tech for thales is here to ensure that this gap will remain if not increase against european competitors.

I am sure you have noticed the first rafale AESA radar is currently being transfered to Dassault…With 60 radars ordered. That is a nice start at our European scale.;):)