As I said people quickly make up their mind on that…

And that’s the point of a forum ! Live with it;)

he problem is that the over-sensitive Rafale fan boys are getting their panties in a twist about what they see as some kind of deadly insult against their beloved aeroplane, and it’s not anything of the kind.

I see your point and I can agree with you to a certain extent. But from my side (try to understand my point of view) I find quite funny to see some posters immediatly trying to find the weak point of the article and attacking it. I think there is a “golden middle” between this two positions…
I do believe that Mr Colins took into consideration other 4th gen fighers when doing its last statement. It is an opinion. Probably the most authoritative opinion I’ve seen so far but I can understand other arguments.

If I try to give my own personnal opinion as a forumer, I think rafale’s advantage comes from being a very good aircraft, which is far mor complex than just raw datas, but also much more : It is a “complete mature system” with a very good weapon package both for AtG and AtA.
The fact that a rafale can carry the same load than a F15E is a lot of “performance” in itself. This is not just about speed etc but also carrying capabilities or range for instance.
1H25 with that configuration load and such a flight patern (intense use of AB, Hi-low-Hi, low altitude mountain ride) is a good performance.

This is getting ridiculous.
Thales releases a text about the new AESA antena of the RBE-2. With that article there are a few photos in wich the T/R modules are CLEARLY visible. They are counted, the antena in those photos has 863 T/R modules, thats a unmistakable PROOF.
And of course thats a prototype, it was a 2006 antenna…
Where in the sweet name of jesus did i wrote that it wasnt?

Ok so do you admitt that inline RBE2 AESA will have approx 1000 module as officially stated ? Because I find it hard to believe so called geek specialists versus an official thales statement.

Secondly from my brief personnal experience in the defense industry (SAFRAN group) I can tell you that they are usually cautious to “make up” hardware to fight against industry espionnage. Basically by presenting slightly ill proportionate dummies in the case of missiles for instance (it is the case for Sagem défense et sécurité, a subsidiary from SAFRAN). So to tell the truth I am a bit skeptical to say the least that the photo correspond to a real radar. If some forumers can find so precise infos then imagine what a competitor could do !

read the post above…Official statement versus empiric counting. there is a big gap of credibility;)

https://www1.online.thalesgroup.com/col/Airborne/public_inquire05.html

My source for the 850 elements is floating around on the web — somebody has simply counted the number of elements from a picture. And a PR department could easily state that 850 is “around 1000”. However I agree that this number may be wrong; currently it’s the most reliable I have seen. If you have other sources I would love to see them.

-I pretty sure it is a little bit above 1000 elements, I know I’ve read it several times. I even think I’ve already mentioned it in a previous rafale thread when I sumed up an A&C report on the RBE2 AESA (a summary which was copy past on many forums I remember including here http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewforum.php?f=3). I’ll try to find some links but I am pretty confident it is around 1000 elements.

-debating on RCS is pointless, both aircraft have reduced RCS but this subject is too speculative.

It is not clear to me how in a network centric warfare environment the advantages of a swashplate antenna will “disappear”; perhaps slightly reduce but “disappear”? I don’t see that.

Basically with an AWACS or ground/sea base radar and link 16 you will have a 360° view of the battlefield and you can “hand over” the BVR missile datas refreshment without iluminating the foe with your radar enabling to escape a probable incoming missile once you have shot yours.

Your point of not entering WVR is interesting… OTOH then you are still in the BVR realm and then we are talking Meteor vs Meteor (or Meteor vs Mica).

The thing is the limit between BVR and WVR is somewhat too theorical. The mica IR which can be used both as a BVR missile and a WVR missile supress this limit. If a rafale fail with its BVR EM missiles (mica EM or meteor) then it can engage with mica IR before the merge and before the other aicraft can use its own short range IR missile. The “IR” option will be available much much more sooner than other aircrafts even from BVR distance or intermediate BVR distance (just before the merge). That will dramaticaly boosts rafale probability to down the ennemy. A combo a mica EM an IR shot will be very difficult to decieve.

That is why the old style of merge as you imagine won’t be the norm. A mica IR will be fired head on well before an iris-t could be fired. Simply put the mica IR almost denies the possibility to get to the merge. That is one of the reason an HMS was not considered as a priority for the rafale in the short term.

IF BVR is not possible due to ROE then I am not sure if the longer range of the Mica will help? Also, if the fighters simply do not detect each other until they are WVR (however I don’t know how probable that is with their AESAs) the longer range of the Mica will also not help

That is the point of the OSF : identify visually a threat from a safe distance and even engage it thanks to this item. That is exactly how pilot use it.

French Admiral Edouard Guillaud, Head of private President Nicolas Sarkozy military office interview in brazilian press :

also related here :

http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.fr/defense/2009/11/au-br%C3%A9sil-lamiral-guillaud-d%C3%A9nonce-la-campagne-de-d%C3%A9valorisation-du-rafale.html

FX-2: What is the French proposal

In a recent visit to Brazil for further negotiations on the future of the project FX2 Burst to renew the fleet of fighters the Air Force, the French Admiral Edouard Guillaud, Head of private President Nicolas Sarkozy, beat strong competitors and spared criticism of U.S. and Swedish. In an interview with Hangar23, he fiercely defended the proposal against the French and attacked what he says is a “campaign of the devaluation of the Rafale.

” I was very surprised, because the number of the French proposal had been so modified in the media. Our main objective here is to reinforce what we promised the Brazilian government and to deny what was written on the Rafale. We are not a supermarket of weapons. We do not sell just a plane, but all the know-how and technology related project. It is clear to the French and Brazilian governments that the transfer is complete, unlike the U.S. proposal. ”

Andrew Coelho / Agência O Globo

PRICE:

People associated with the delegation, which included the French Minister of Defense Herve Morin, for example during a brief visit to Rio French representatives met in closed session with Defense Minister Nelson Jobim and the order the day of the meeting was once again reduced the price of the Rafale, considered the most expensive of the three aircraft competing for the FX2. Asked about the price of each aircraft, but the admiral, was unequivocal in saying that much of what has been said about the values of the French rafale is not true.

“We guarantee that the price here is even paid by the taxpayer as the French Rafale. This value may be even higher than SuperHornet and Gripen, but the price to pay to be independent and that we understand not dependent on the political situation in another country. ” According Guillaud, the issue of trade is in the background throughout the process. “No reason, we are traders, but as strategists. We understand that Brazil is indeed a power and as such, is in our interest to tell. It’s very clear in support of President Sarkozy gave the inclusion of Brazil in the Security Council of the UN. ”

And comparisons with SuperHornet GRIPEN

According to the French commander – and despite never driving along one of Rafale were sold outside of France – the game would be the best option for the FAB. In addition to the autonomy of the rafale and the capacity it brings, he said that one Rafale is equal to two Gripen. Guillaud made comparisons with SuperHornet and Gripen and has spared no ammunition against its competitors. “There are three options in question quite clear: a project that does not exist and we do not know how it will in the future, there is another possibility, but has limited growth and a third brings a new technology with additional growth potential. Brazil can not have a plan on paper or otherwise, which is the final stage of its lifecycle “shot.

TRANSFER OF TECHNOLOGY AND OUT GAMES

The question of counterparties and technology transfer were also mentioned. He says even that can be exchanged between senior officers of the two air forces through cooperation. The Americans were again criticized. “An unarmed combatant is nothing more than an airplane flying club a little more expensive,” said Admiral French in a clear allusion to doubts as to whether or not its source codes for the weapons the F / A 18. “It will provide a single plane, but a complete system, since our missile industry is also willing to transfer their manufacturing secrets” he said.

FIRST STEPS IN THE PROCESS

According to Edouard Guillaud, if the transaction is closed, and the training of skilled labor, the first 6 units of the Rafale will be manufactured and assembled in France, the next 30 years will have parts manufactured in France, but the Assembly will take place in Brazil and the remaining units will be fully manufactured in factories in Brazil. “At the end of the process, the Rafale is a Brazilian fighter and the country will be exclusive in respect of sales for Latin America

another statement :

Sunday, 11 October 2009 | Printable

Jobim reaffirms preference for Rafale

Minister however, expressed concern with the French Minister.

Pedro Fonseca Pedro Fonseca

Defense Minister Nelson Jobim, reaffirmed the preference of Brazil for the purchase of 36 French Rafale fighters.

“The preference is the president Lula, in view of our strategic partnership with France and claim President Nicolas Sarkozy on the unrestricted transfer of technology,” he said.

He expressed, however, concern the Dassault, manufacturer of the game, will accept the Brazilian condition for purchase.

“The manufacturer is private and the actions of the French government are preferred non-voting. You must know whether the proposal of the Brazilian Air Force, which calls for an unrestricted transfer of technology will be adopted,” said Jobim.

The concern of the minister has raised eyebrows.

In September, Admiral Edouard Guillaud, military chief of staff of the French president, was in Brasilia, in the company of Vice President of Dassault, to bring the security transfer of technology “on track, without restriction and without limit.”

MATCH

The last stage of bidding for the project called F-X2, with direct participation of companies competing for the sale of 36 high-tech fighters to Brazil, was closed earlier this month with the submission of final proposals, all amplified, the Air Force Command.

In the French Dassault, involving the U.S. Boeing, offering the F-18, and Sweden’s Saab, with the Gripen NG.

All have significantly improved their offerings.

Dassault has been forced to reduce its price – both the cost of flight hours, considered very high by the Brazilian government, as the figure on the purchase price.

Saab has a counterpoint to the French competitor, who announced the purchase of a dozen KC-390 aircraft, the new military transport designed by Embraer.

Boeing has already increased the commitment to open and sensitive knowledge, the first time, cited a gem of American military engineering – the stealth technology, which gives the aircraft the ability to avoid detection by enemy radars and sensors.

Do you know that one of the off-set of the mirage 2000-9 export to the UAE was to finance tulip culture in the desert….:D ToT and compensation can cover many things…far beyond one product…