Reading between the lines in arthous statement, it sounded a lot like Saab was playing some dirty game duping Embraer into making press releases. And that is pure BS.

That is your own interpretation. I intentionally kept it free to everyone to make its own opinion. Lobbying or bribes who knows ? There is always a grey zone here. But I am not accusing anyone…I am just suspicious (at a personnal level) when you know Grippen tracking record for bribering…The timing of this press release is somewhat not neutral. But again that is just me and feel free to differ.

Just wanted to pointed out that SAAB is applying a particular communication strategy which differs from Dassault. And we should remain lucid that this is a communication strategy so we should take SAAB press releases with a pinch of salt. But it is true that the NG have some good points like lower costs. But did they need a competition to know that a single is cheaper than a twin engine aircraft ? Bigger as also its own advantages…Otherwise everybody would design litghtweight combat aircrafts….So the communication from SAAB on lower costs is as if this should be the overriding criteria. But I have never seen any official statements from the FAB about that.

ante climax;

Actually you should’nt be confused by an active corporate strategy via press release by Saab. They managed to influence an embraer official (I bet that this position wasn’t done without SAAB intervention) but the government of brasil already told officialy that this would have no impact on the final decision. I am sure that dassault is also very active, but as they can talk directly to the right people they don’t need to comunicate via press release.

This press campain tries to gives the feeling that the gripen is the most appropriate aircraft for the FAB and cast a doubt on the rafale choice. But the fact that dassault doesn’t communicate via press release doesn’t mean that they are short of arguments again they choose another strategy. Obviously press realeses are very efficient on forumer who are not aware of corporate comuniction strategy, or at least without a multinational corporate experience. I don’t say that everything is wrong in these press releases, I just say that we should take it with a pinch of salt and that is only one side of the story. Dassault has its own arguments but aren’t made public that’s all.

The Gripen NG Demonstrator will fly in India with the AESA. So by that definition, it exists.

Which AESA ? The one from Thales or from Selex ? I doubt that the gripen NG is anywhere as close to the rafale F3+ as regarding development. The aircraft exist in the form of a unique demonstrator which is far to be representative of an operational aircraft what about all the hardware dev. and integration ? It has taken around decade to dev. the SH, rafale, Typhoon, F35 systems and you would like tyhe gripen NG to be already nearly operational ? 2013 is a minimum to field an operational gripen NG. The dev. of the F3+ started in 2007 even earlier if you take into account that the rafale flew with an AESA radar in 2003 for the first time and that it beneficiates from an ESA architecture since the beginning.

You’re confusing me. First you say there are several parameters determining which is better, and then you state that the Rafale is better because it’s bigger. As you say, it is a matter of point of view. What’s better for one customer doesn’t automatically make it better for another.

LCC and maintenance seems to be areas which the FAB favors.

Sorry I didn’t intended to confuse you. Unless I don’t have a formal statement about LCC I won’t give it too much credit. A lot of desinformation has been made about it recently from Boeing againsat Dassault.

p4 of this thread (extract)

Boeing and Washington then trying to shake the building .A senior Brazilian presents evidence clearly unfavorable to the Rafale to President Lula and his minister of defense. The Rafale hour flight would be $ 21,000, almost 3 times more expensive than the F-18, which is heavier . Brazil would not get the exclusive export to South America. Worse, it would cost 70% of the contract before receiving the first plane. “We do not think it would go this far in disinformation,” said a negotiator.The string is a little big, but it works. And then, as he had promised, Obama called Lula to confirm that Congress is in the pocket.

The Gripen hasn’t had any engine failures with some 100,000 flight hours. (at least non that has caused any incidents and thereby made it to the news)

The F-35 is a single engine aircraft and the fact that the USN, US Marines, RN etc aren’t worried about a single engine design. Why should Brazil?

It wasn’t long ago when only trijets and quads were allowed to cross oceans/desserts. Times change, engines are more reliable nowadays.

I agree with you but that what still given as a reason buy Nelson Jobim I think. Nevertheless all the satistical studies show that if you compare a mono vs twin engine fleet of aicrafts, the attrition is lower for twins over the years.

How many Rafale F3+ exists?

At least one at a very close standard, with AESA and damocles : the rafale B302, tested by the swiss. Two F3+ (with AESA) will be tested by india very soon.

——-

-It was already known that the gripen would be cheaper. But this is only a parameter among others of what determine performance.

One can say that rafale brings more punch (more payload, greater range, better safty etc) so its is better. It is a matter of point of view and priorities. The fact is that Brazil is also looking for political leverage and ToT. So a blogger’s point of view is just as you said : a point of view. But to say that the FAB is favourable to the NG is suspicious.

I don’t doubt that if that was really the case then SAAB would jump on it to advertise it. Look at the number of SAAB press release recently…Why doesn’t they speek about it then ? I think this is quite telling…

the battle for the 36 fighters that is about to buy Brazil has led to an escalation media last week as and as the date for submission of final bids. Today is indeed that LEGIE Rafale (Dassault, Thales and Snecma), Boeing and Saab should get their copy, then letting the government and the Air Force Brazilian finalize their decision in private. While Boeing has promised 5,000 jobs in Brazil if the F18 was selected, its Swedish rival was prepared to cut prices of its Gripen new generation. In the French camp, however, low profile: Given the public preference shown by President Lula, the probability that the Rafale lose its pole position appears very low. Under these conditions, no need to add more.

While remaining cautious, because the competition is obviously not said its last word, in Paris, it reiterates that France is for the fighters in the position it held last December 23 for the submarine: an agreement in principle was announced at the highest level of the Brazilian state, with the key, a letter signed by Nicolas Sarkozy is to insure customer requirements. It remains to conclude the negotiations for a contract estimated at approximately 5 billion euros, including weapons.
Negotiations

“There are actually from the government an option for France. Just as France meets its commitment to unrestricted transfer of technology and prices equivalent to those paid by the French armed forces, “said Nelson Jobim, Minister of Defense, during a hearing Wednesday at the Brazilian Senate . But for confirmation de facto preference given to Gust turns into ad “de jure”, it will take a month. It is October 23, to mark the 104 anniversary of the flight of Santos-Dumont celebration National Aviation, which should be announced the winner of the competition. Negotiations with the Rafale can then start officially. In the UAE, other countries targeted for the Rafale, the procedure for OTC sale of sixty aircraft entered its final stretch. After having fixed the technical configuration, the two parties discussed the cost of airplanes. An agreement is still expected by the end of
year.

ALAIN Ruello Les Echos

The latest Rafale Marine, with its new equipment and capabilities, has just left Dassault Aviation’s production line in Mérignac, near Bordeaux.

At 4:30 p.m. on July 2 a naval Rafale Marine combat aircraft carrying the number 27 on its airframe landed at Mont-de-Marsan air base, in south-western France, at the conclusion of a ferry flight from Mérignac, where it was built.

Although identical in appearance to the previous version, the Rafale M12, the new aircraft is the first to have been built to the F3 production standard, the most advanced on contract for the French armed forces.

It is fitted with the latest digital systems which replace older, analogue equipment such as the video recorder. But the main difference is that the F3 version will be able to carry advanced sensors now being developed, such as the Advanced Electronically-Scanned Antenna radar which will allow improved target detection at longer ranges. It also will be fitted with the nose-mounted electro-optical thermal imaging camera which will allow passive target identification at long ranges.

With the F3 standard, the Rafale will attain its full maturity. The new version has the same basic operational capabilities as the aircraft numbered M11 to M26, which were delivered to the navy between 2006 and 2008, and which are now undergoing an upgraded at Istres air base (for the first six) and at Landivisiau naval air base for the others.

The latest aircraft, M27, is the first of 12 aircraft which will be delivered to the navy between 2009 and 2014. It has now been handed over to the détachement centre d’expérimentations pratiques et de réception de l’aéronautique navale (naval aviation reception and trials center, CEPA) at Mont de Marsan for military trials being conducted jointly with the air force.

Beginning in September, when the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle is expected to be back at sea, it will undergo a series of full-load catapult tests, at full engine reheat.

-ends-

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl … navy.html#

when I said category I meant in terms of weight and size for the gripen and tejas. The SH is way bigger in fact it is perhaps closer to an MKI in terms of “punch” brought into the fight.

The gripen NG is a very good cost/performance compromise though. Afterwards it is a question of what the IAF is ready to pay and what capability it is seeking.

mmrca-part-4- The french squall

The Rafale is an intriguing aircraft. Everyone remembers the dramatic way in which Dassault announced in 2006 that it was withdrawing the Mirage-2000-V from the MMRCA competition and instead fielding the the Rafale. It was a surprise move, considering the fact that the IAF had initially simply wanted to buy a whole lot more Mirages as its MMRCA, and was deeply convinced about the capabilities of the Dash-5. Fate (and Dassault) had other plans, it seemed. And with the government, in its wisdom, ordering the IAF to “open up” its qualitative requirements to engender a real competition, Boeing leapt into the fray with the Super Hornet. Almost on cue, the Mirage was withdrawn and the Rafale pitched. There are those who believe this was a seriously bad move, though Dassault unofficially sent across the message that there was no way in hell that it was going to keep its production line warm for the notorious time it was going to take for the Indian government to make its mind up, and also that there was no assurance that the Mirage would be selected finally. And therefore, the Rafale.

STRENGHTS

The Rafale smacks of the intangible “newness” of being a truly contemporary airplane built for today’s missions. Conversely, it suffers none of the reputational hazards of being an old souped up platform with tinkering under the bonnet. Pitched as an “omnirole” fighter, the IAF has incrementally been convinced of what this term really means. Pitched as a logical next-step to the Mirage — which the IAF loves with a passion — the people at Dassault have managed to pitch well the idea that operating the Rafale will be a progression of the same ownership/operation experience. The pitch that IAF pilots will take to the Rafale more easily than any of the other fighters is something that has managed to be persuasive to an extent. While the Thales RBE2 AESA radar is still its final developmental phase, the IAF has been provided with regular and detailed updates on the radar’s capabilities and performance parameters, and one officer, who has been part of the teams that receive these updates on a regular basis, says the IAF had no reason to doubt the laid down capabilities, and was in fact deeply impressed with what the French had managed to achieve in what is a science simply dominated by two American firms. Not just that, Dassault says the Rafale is the only aircraft in its class to be equipped with active arrays for both its radar and electronic warfare suite (EWS). IAF officers have in fact regularly been invited to witness RBE2 prototypes being tested on the Hack — a Mirage-2000 test bed for the radar since 2003. In April 2008, the Rafale opened its operational account by being deployed to Afghanistan and being flown on 220 active combat missions, involving 730 flight hours. This may be peanuts compared to the operational logs of the Rafale’s competition in the MMRCA, but the IAF recognises that this is a new aircraft in a transitory phase of tranche-level modernisation. At Red Flag 2008, IAF pilots got up close with the Rafale. A report on the Rafale was in fact informally submitted to Vayu Bhawan by the team when it returned. TheIAF has been given detailed presentations on the Rafale’s multi-sensor data fusion system — the RBE2 radar, Link 16 data bus, Front Sector Optronic (FSO) and SPECTRA self-defense suite and has been impressed by the ensemble. The Rafale is also considered by the IAF to be possibly the only plane in the sweepstakes with a focused use of composites for stealth and reduced RCS. The Rafale will also come with new, high-capability variants of MBDA missiles that the IAF has operated for decades, and places a lot of value on. Former Navy chief Admiral Arun Prakash, as FOC-in-C Western Naval Command, flew the Rafale during an official visit to Paris. A few other senior officers of the IAF have also had a chance to spin up in the otherwise reclusive Rafale. The sense that Dassault isn’t displaying its wares like the other five contenders are, is something that has somehow been looked at as “proper” by some in the Defence Ministry. This is, after all, a serious defence procurement, some say — “there’s no need for so much song and dance at Aero India every year”. The Rafale is the only aircraft in the sweepstakes that comes with an explicitly stated nuclear delivery capability. None of the others mentioned it. And the reason I mention this is that some very senior officers in the air force, are wondering why. The Rafale is also among the least familiar of the six jets, at least in the Indian media, simply because Dassault has stayed well away from courting publicity — this is also looked upon by the IAF/MoD as being representative of a deeper, more valuable quality during a procurement process: discretion. Finally, defence deals with France have always been expensive, but always been excellent professional and operational experiences for the Indian forces. From the Mirages to Alouettes to the Mysteres. No spares problems. No nonsense. The French could also leverage significant political power to push India as the prestigious launch customer of the Rafale, though not quite like the Jaguar’s initial years were. A maximum 11 Gs in critical manoeuvers doesn’t hurt either.

WEAKNESSES

The albatross around the Rafale remains its relatively unproven stature, and of course, the fact that it hasn’t ever been exported. As one of the most expensive (flyaway cost) aircraft in the sweepstakes, it also comes with possibly the largest price-tag in terms of total contract cost, though Dassault has made strenuous efforts to convey to the IAF that its use of Dassault aircraft over time, particularly the Mirage, will significantly erode the total commitment necessary in terms of new infrastructure. Obviously, the IAF isn’t buying this — they’re treating the Rafale as any new aircraft type. There are almost no articulated weaknesses in specifications, though the IAF is anxious about an aircraft that has been fielded for a lot of competitions unsuccessfully. Finally, the government has recently awarded France with the huge Scorpene deal. Awarding the MMRCA to France would be politically too much for too little. The leadership of Nicolas Sarkozy doesn’t half do what Jacques Chirac’s did in its time.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/07…ch-squall.html