arthuroThanks for the reply. ALbeit I thought the first example was delivered in august 2008 to the MN. September was the first delivery to the AdA?
sorry for the typo mistake, september 2008 is indeed for the AdA not the MN.
arthuroWhat is the current status of the AdA EC 1/91 Cascogne? It was formely planned to be named EC 2/7?
BTW how many new built F3s have been delivered?
I have some infos from air fan so the AdA has today 42 rafales including 35 twin seaters.
There is already today more F3 than F2 and the upgrade will be over in february 2010.
the EC1/91 was recreated the 31 march 2009 it will be fully operational during the summer 2010 although it can already perform other non nuclear missions since most of the personnel comes from the provence squadron.
The provence squadron is now mostly composed of single seater for operational tasks.
The first new build rafale F3 was delivered in september 2009.
arthuroArthuro,
I didn’t mean the plastic pig outside (which belongs to EF GmbH, not BAE), I meant the baby active cockpit inside!
The plastic pig is just a mock up. But the cockpit inside is ‘live’. You can fly a sortie, or stand next to the cockpit as one of the TPs flies one and talks through what he’s doing. Hold on though, or you will fall over, even though it’s fixed base, with no motion and relatively crude visuals!
I missed this one, but I would have loved to take a sit in it believe me!
Thank you to have kept it civil. Now it is perhaps time to move along and go to next subject;)
arthuroEDIT : In fact not really : they didn’t show the true capability but the report didn’t stated that they didn’t use it. So My report is still coherent with the AFM report Toan. What is the difference ? Although this would explain the 0 loss against the SH as I found it quite surprising that the JHMS +aim9X combo would be inefficient.
French Rafale on the Teddy” ~ The special report of Rafale M F2’s performance during the JTFEX exercise, 2008.
1. In Page 37, a photo shows a Rafale M of 12F flew with an F/A-18F from the Blacklions Squadron, the first frontline squadron of Superhornet Block II.
2. Rafale M F2 met with F/A-18E/F in several 1 v 1 BFM and 2 v 2 AA missions during the exercise. However, both sides didn’t show their real and complete fighting capability to each other ~ US pilots didn’t show the true capability of JHMCS + AIM-9X to French pilots, while 12F was also shy about showing the real capabilities of RBE2 radar, Spectra EWS, and FSO optronic systems.
3. A USN pilot’s (Lt Mike Tremel, pilot of VFA-31 “Tomcatters”) comments for Rafale M:
“A highly maneuverable fighter with an incredible capacity to point its nose in every direction in the sky.”
“The French pilots seem to be happy to its flight performance and its modern cockpit design”.
When asked if he would like to swap his Super hornet to a Rafale –> “No, I love my Super Bug way too much….”
4. A French pilot’s (pilot of 12F) comments for F/A-18E:
“A great bombing aircraft, but not a fighter for dogfighting.”
“Its acceleration capability in the high angle of incidence is not good.”
“Rafale is definitely the more nimble one.”
“However, F/A-18E has already equipped the JHMCS + AIM-9X, a combination of decisive edge in close-range encounters ~ Although the tactics to counter it have existed now.”
arthurohere is the BAE moke up :
arthuroThere are plenty of sources to confirm everything that I’ve said on this thread and the latter part of the immediately previous Rafale thread.
I have not made one single empty declaration here.
Rafale did not beat Super Hornet without loss.
This year’s Le Bourget Rafale display was a bit tame and I found it disappointing.
Rafale has been beaten by Gripen and F-16 – aircraft that I’d view as inferior.
Rafale has not achieved a positive kill:loss ratio against Typhoon yet.
That where I would like you to be more specific because for the first and the last assertion I (and several other posters) got very different information from a source that we are able to name.:(
It mean imagine just a second…I am with this MN pilot (he is in the cokpit, we are on the platform) with three MBDA executives and during the course of the conversation (we talked about many different things) he talked about the dogfighting abilities of the rafale quoting the F18/SH encounter and the typhoon encounter. He was quite specific I don’t honestly see him lying. And he was a direct proponents of these encounters as he related one personal typhoon kill as an example. Besides other people posting on airdefense met this pilot and got more about this story : the rafale had a better ratio against the typhoon during the 2007 encounter.
On the other assertions, I am not saying it is impossible, in fact it is very likely as all aircrafts are beaten time to times, I am just saying that I never heard about it in the press or on a forum except from you. So if there are plenty of sources I would be curious to see them. But honestly no aircraft is invincible…
Which is more interesting are comments wich are about respective aircrafts performance making abstarction of the pilot performance. For instance here are some clue about the F16.
To take more of a bird’s eye view…when a USAF instructor pilot from Luke AFB says :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfqJYyPevvw
US F16 pilot : “rafale has capabilities which are unique and is a much more agressive aircraft…”
speaker : the US pilots were impressed by rafale power…
well it has its weights…
you can read from french pilots :
against an F16 the rafale is more powerful in the whole flight envelope and is considerably more maneuvrable below 300 knots
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=89966&page=13
(source attached reply 369)
then you can find a video of the confrontation at Luke with F16 in rafale HUD
http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/rafale+red+flag/video/x96igj_rafale-a-red-flag-08_tech
So this gives you a better idea of aircraft comparison when it come to DF. Nevertheless the rafale still lose time to times like all aircrafts just like it is reported in the first video.
I know you don’t like this one but it still adds weight in the balance…
Moussez said that in dogfight exercises, the Rafale had outflown F-15, F-16 and F-18 opponents…
And I tried to talk to BAE staff (BAE because I was close to the BAE mock up, not EADS one at this moment). In fact I could have a sit in the typhoon cokpit but I didn’t find someone to talk with unfortunately. But I talked with people from Sukhoi, from the USAF (F16 and F15E) pilots and from EADS (Eurocopter).
arthurofirstly I was disappointed that you didn’t answered to my criticism…It is impossible to crosscheck your infos in the press or elsewhere. And this has been true for years. I never read anywhere in the press about your various rafale encounters…But I’ll be glad to read about it. Give me an issue number so that I can order it. I am genuinely willing to learn more. And you will see that I can admitt that I am wrong if it is the case.
I met with various aircrafts maker as my personnal pictures can attest, including the typhoon (they are posted in the previous thread) although I admit that I didn’t have access to BAE staff. There is a distortion since we are in the rafale thread.
The fundamental problem is that you are inclined to dismiss and reject anything that does not show the aircraft you love in the best possible light – even when a criticism is of an isolated and unrepresentative area – eg that Rafale only won against Super Hornet most of the time, and not all of the time as you’d prefer to believe, or that at Le Bourget in 2009, the Rafale flying display was decidedly unimpressive, and failed to show what the aircraft can do.
I feel that you are runnig short of arguments. I already reckognized that this wasn’t the best rafale dispaly. I already agreed with you on this point. I also admitted since my first post that the rafale wasn’t invincible and that it was sometimes beaten during dogfight although I maintain the SH story. My point was simply to bring a story from a rafale pilot and I don’t pretend that his view is the absolute truth. Everybody can make his own opinion.
And it is probably easier to make me looks like a blind rafale fan boy when you don’t have good arguments. Again while I am a rafale enthusiast I prefer hearing the truth than fery tales. I just ask for reliable checkable informations. I just pointed out that for the moment (since years) you never provided a published sources. I am perfectly able to be proven wrong contrarly of what you believe.
What I am trying to do (I am not always succesfull) is usually to find different sources to make my point. For instance for F16 dogfights, I was able to bring a TV interview of a USAF pilot, rafale HUD videos and french rafale pilots comments over the mirage 2000 and the F16. These various “checkable” sources while perhaps not perfect gave a rather accurate comparison. I just would like that you sometimes apply the same methodology instead of making empty declarations.
regards.
PS : I think that we are often not that far but we sometimes overreact…Let’s try to defuse the flame.
arthuroRe: Categorically denied.
The claim that Rafale beat Super Hornet without loss is not a new one. It was categorically denied before I left for Le Bourget.
Clear?
So the rafale pilot lied to several forum members then…I am sorry but we must disagree here. Letting appart the uncheckable info.
Re: Spinning.
I’m not spinning. I make points of fact, and gently point it out when you let yourself get carried away by your enthusiasm for Rafale and make unsubstantiated or exaggerated claims.
It’s offensive and provocative to accuse another member of ‘spin’ and I’d suggest that if you want to keep this debate civilised, then you should be a little more courteous and a lot less confrontational.
I’ll try to be less offensive but on your side try to stop dismissing me and others. We are also trying to point out facts and I’ll prefer the truth to ferry tales. But I don’t think (and I am not the only one) that you are neutral so that is why I take your sources with a “big pinch of salt” and have my doubts. Usually my sources are checkable and were published in the press and I am looking for cross checking infos. The issue is that I can never cross check yours with the press or discussion with pilots…That is why it is difficult to believe you. I don’t think it is because I am a rafale enthusiastic, I think I am ready to here many things but I would like to have reliable infos.
Admit that we must believe you all the time and that we can never verify your sayings in the press or elsewhere.
Re: Junior Officer
Anything less than a full Colonel is a junior officer in my book. I took him to be a Captain/Flight Lieutenant equivalent (my knowledge of French Navy ranks is sketchy), and thought that he was on his third tour. The point is that he was there for PR purposes, and he was handing out the PR spiel.
Ok for your definition, but one thing…although I honestly didn’t felt he was “showing off” especially with MBDA executives, PR is not about lying but putting forward your strenghts. The F18/SH and Typhoon should account for less than 10% of the conversation. It is not as if he was boasting all the time. In fact I felt he was very balanced and beyhond this childish competition.
arthuroIt’s amusing that the word of one, junior Aeronavale pilot, bored and doing the ‘at the airshow barrier’, ‘meet the public’ routine is taken as gospel, while anything that contradicts it is viewed as being dodgy.
It funny how you are spinning…(getting angry?) This pilot was a former SuE pilot, did an exchange on the mirage 200D, is now night qual on the rafale for carrier landing and you call him “junior” ! He is a senior officer and I met him during professional days the other side of the barrier with three other people from the industry (MBDA) so that was hardly a fan boy discussion.
Also I suspect the credibility of your arguments and sources…I loved when you said “categorically denied” on the former thread as we just started this discussion…Or have you some telepathy skills ?
You are also implying thoughts that I don’t have. In no way I am trying to say that the rafale is invicinble. I just reported some first hand infos about rafale encounter with the SH and the Typhoon through the eyes of an experimented officer. But you are so touchy about that (you are a typhoon fan boy) you jumped in and sparked a flame. I was told about one confrontation about the rafale and the typhoon from Benco but other members who could talk to him confirm that the rafale bested the typhoon in dogfights against the Italians. And that doesn’t mean the rafale never lost or the rafale is superior to the typhoon please.
Again I just reported some first hand infos…You implyed that I was trying to say that the rafale is better in this area against the Typhoon. If you re-read my first post on this issue you will see that it is very balanced.
arthuroOther news (quite a lot this week) : In ferbruary 2010 there will be only rafale F3 in line !!
a F2 retrofit is a six week work to reach the F3 standard.
arthuroSorry I had to post this (which is certainly related to the story from Benco at the paris airshow).
arthuroPardon the mental retardation, but whatever happened to Morocco and Libya? Did the F1 upgrade replace a Rafale purchase in Morocco, and did Russian weapons hijack the chances in Libya?
Morroco went for the F16 and Lybia is said to be waiting the UAE deal to make an order. The same is also said about Koweit sometimes, even Oman.
@ SOC globalpress is an emanation of fonck which was already banned. He is known to ruin many threads.
arthuroThe good news are :
-the UAE deal which is more and more likely. If signed it will bring a significant boost for the rafale programme with the arrival of several important upgrades like : engine, new AESA modes (moving targets tracking), earlier meteor integration, new hard points and other upgrades which were mentioned like improved stealth and improved spectra.
-The french order for 60 aircrafts is expected this fall and will have many upgrades like the AESA radar, the osf-it, DDM-NG.
-The OSF-IT will be ordered for the current F3 batch which were ordered without osf.
-The imminent arrival of new hardware such as the damocles and the GBU24 plus all the weaponery of the F3 : RECO-NG, ASMP-A, Exocet and the IR ASSM.
-Other good news are the development in the pipe such as the integration of laser guided rocket pods which is schedulded in 2 or 3 years.
-then Dassault and the AdA are starting talking about the future upgrades of the batch 5 (2018) with improved AESA, new modes, side antennas. A new IR channel for the OSF with an active laser imagery with a matricial laser beam able to create a very high resolution image of the target (DSI p28)
It will have improved stealth, enhanced data fusion but also a SATCOM datalink and radar missile warning reciever fused with the infrared chanel of the DDM-NG. An helmet mounted sight could arrive sooner.
I thought that the programme is still gaining momentum in its development. But it must be said that the UAE deal is vital for the rafale. The price negociation are expected to last till this fall…So wait and see.
arthuroa little bit off topic here are some personal pictures from the Superjet100 test aircraft plus one rafale picture to avoid being totally irrelevant.
arthuroThe claim that “there wasn’t a single loss against the F18 and the SH” has been categorically denied by US Navy sources. Your ‘checkable sources’ on this are empty propaganda, I’m afraid.
without starting a new flame (fedaykin is somewhat right) it has been asserted by a senior french navy officer. And I was not the only french poster to have heard this story from this guy. If you disagree live with it. I just find suspect the “categorically denied” when we started this flame today…Or can you read in my thoughts ? ( Ok Let’s start to defuse this flame)
There was a report in flight international about that and the US navy pilots admitted that the rafale was a better fighter.
you can find several real gun lock from the rafale HUD vs the SH here :
http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/rafale+vs/video/x6bnpq_rafale-vs-superhornet_sport (its start at 3’05)
You can find as many pilots willing to confirm that Typhoons ‘toasted’ Rafales as the reverse. It’s meaningless posturing at an air show, and Benco has no more and no less credibility than his AMI counterparts.
And don’t necessarly disagree,;) beyhond this MN score against the typhee he said that there is always a part of luck in this kind of engagement so the outcome might have been different. In fact the way he explained/told his experience showed that he wasn’t boasting. He hust gave some facts and some feeling in a very calm maner. He just felt that there isn’t a gap in performance between the two aircrafts when it comes to dogfighting. This is his opinion. Perhaps some other pilots felt differently but that is just what we were told.
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