arthuroAh ! the usual Jacko’s spin…:D
The big difference is that I can provide on top of first hand infos chekable sources…something that you are not able to do obviously…
secondly there is a gap between boasting about rafale capabilities and lying…
Ther wasn’t a single loss against the F18 and the SH and he already downed several Typhoon in DF (according to other persons who talked to him, he told me about one) … So did you talked to “Benco” rafale pilot from the MN ?? (on the french armed forces static dispaly). You were supposed to have talked to all the rafale pilot don’t you ?
Several posters who met him at the paris airshow at different days and got the same story or even more, Typhoon were toasted several times !! (thank you Tmor…)
He is an experimented officer and his beyhond this little spin game…The conclusions are theirs, not mine so stop spinning please;)
Look page 12,13,14 of this thread and you will see the various sources that I provided for DF. You should try to gain some credibility before posting.
So for other aircraft such as the F16 or the gripen, I provided enough sources with pilots comments etc and videos all along this thread to make you bite the dust!:D;):)
arthuroYes I also bought the DSI issue (11€!) great infos…I advise the air fan monthly which is interesting as well especially about future upgrades…
arthuroother news the 49 OSF-it should be ordered for the current F3 batch which was ordered without OSF.
A DIRCM is considered for the 2020 horizon
arthuroposted in may 2007 by another poster from an Air Fan issue that most of the french poster know!
http://www.air-defense.net/Forum_AD/index.php?topic=8521.0
automatic traduction :
In an article of Air Fan of May 2007, Gripen came to France in exchange with F1CR Reims. Beyond reconnaissance missions, the Gripen have mock dogfights and BVR with the Mirages F1. I did not specify the outcome, nobody doubts … [28]
however, the Gripen has been against the Rafale, and here it seems that our Swedish friends had nice cold sweat …
Thus combined raids were conducted according to Air Fan (two or four in F1CR reco Gripen escorted by two plus two Rafales sweep in with the AWACS, with four in 2000-5 CAP) and interceptions Gripen / Rafale in altitude. Swedish aviators knew little french new jet they fear above all the ability to shoot long distance with the Mica IR. Swedish aviators “who have participated with Rafale in combat have also discovered huge reserves of power available to that aircraft, even heavily loaded”
Also, according to a pilot, 1 / 33, connoisseur of the Rafale, which flew aboard Rafale and Gripen.
“Gripen is about the capacity of 2000-5 Mk2, a little smaller. But in terms of fusion of information, payload capacity, and technology of the weapon system, there ‘is a gap between the Rafale and JAS39 ”Other comments: “Visiting the EC 1 / 7, the Swedish pilots were obviously surprised by the capabilities of carrying the Rafale and the fusion of diffferent sensors ”
… against F1CR , I do prefer not to comment … we will simply say that for dogfightieng, they are dropped completely, and BVR
the officail demo video…
http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fr/aviation/salon-du-bourget-2009/videos.html
arthuroJackonicko,
If you reread my first post with the picture about the dispaly you will see that I don’t necesseraly disagree…It was not the best rafale demo that I saw even if I appreciated it as much as the others.
I also talked with most of rafale pilots there (did you have a look at my pictures on this thread?) and my only point is that considering the rafale dogfighting record and its carrying capabilities plus comments from rafale pilots, the rafale doesn’t lack power even if you can find some competitors which can boast an even higher trust to weight ratio (like the typhoon).
I am afirmative about the MN pilot…He was adamant and no doubt was possible expet if you consider him as a liar…I make him repeated his story again and again…This pilot was very experimented : a former SuE pilot, night carrier landing qualified, did the roosvelt deployement etc…He admitted that there is always a part of luck in this kind of engagement but he couldn’t see a huge difference in capabilities between the Rafale and the Typhoon for dogfighting.
The rafale is reckognized as beeing superior to the F16 an gripen and this comments come directly from USAF and gripen pilots :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfqJYyPevvw
at the end of the video, I’ll find the gripen article later which I already posted…I must go now
arthuroso on another subject from Air fan monthly :
-Today there are more rafale F3 then F2 thanks to new deliveries and retrofits.
-AASM family will extend in the future with a coming laser guided variant and new size for bombs. it will eventually replace the GBU12 because the AASM offer unique possibilities in terms of firing envelope with off axis firing capabilities with reduced time before fire.
-Laser guided Rockets will be integrated. The demand was officially made by the french air force to the DGA. It will take two or three years before seeing them operational
-The basic future config for CAS will be 3 LGB, 3AASM, 2 rocket pods, 3*2000L drop tank and 4AAMissiles (mica and meteor) plus the damocles pod.
-The rover system will be integrated in the rafale and not in the damocles to ba able to retransmit video from the OSF or the recoNG for ground troops.
-Future upgrade after the F3+ standard in 2018 will be improved stealth capabilities and Side AESA antennas an improved AESA radar (GaN?)…perhaps a radar missile warning reciever in adition to the new infrared one (DDM NG), mobile ground target tracking (will come earlier with the UAE) and satcom to name a few improvments…
arthuroIndeed the clouse couple canard configuration helps a lot in energy management by regulating the air flow over the wing…
and from what I heard tuesday from the MN pilot who fought extensively against F18 and SH the off axis nose pointing capability is a big drawback which makes you lose most of your energy. they didn’t suffered a single loss in dogfigting exercises even with the F18 equipped with Helmet sight with Aim9x.
The fact that the rafale proved to be superior than the F16, F18, F18SH, F15 and gripen in dogfight is a clear indicator of its exellent agility, power and energy management…
Remember that this MN pilot already downed a Typhoon in three turns whereas he had a two supersonic drop tank config…
arthuroIt is the first year that the rafale is displayed by the AdA…I met rafale demo pilot (quite briefly) at dassault’s static display and they reckognized that they will improve in the next years, they are taking their marks.
When I was watching the rafale demo I was with a F15E pilot and he just said “very maneuvrable”.
At a personal level I felt that all four fighters (rafale, typhoon, f16 an SH) did an impressive display and I couldn’t say which was my favorite. The rafale 2007 demo by Eric Gerard was fantastic.
I was impressed by rafale trust to weight ratio and acceleration possibilities…The departure from the minimum speed to full reheat was very impressive with a quick vertical acceleration. In fact this demo was about “power, noise, speed, and fast verical climbs” which is impressive for a large audiance but show less than a tight low speed demo.
arthuroRAFALE demo in HD from the paris airshow 2009 :
two parts :
arthuroYes, it is interesting, because for the first time, the reason invoked for the 90kN is “WEAPONS LOADINGS”, and not hot weather…
very true
arthurohttp://www.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issue=416085913&o=ext
interesting article about the rafale p 42
arthuroLE BOURGET (Seine-Saint-Denis), (AFP) – The United Arab Emirates announced that it had given to France their “technical requirements” for the Rafale, a breakthrough in the negotiations for the sale of fighter aircraft, which could be exported for the first time outside France this year.
The President of the Republic Nicolas Sarkozy Friday welcomed the “advanced file” and spoke of an “excellent news”. The Emirates had announced in 2008 that they were considering “seriously” to replace them from 2013 sixty Mirage 2000 by the latest combat aircraft from Dassault Aviation.
The Emirates have now submitted their “technical requirements” for the Rafale, which they want a more modern than that operating in the French armies.
It is “the first phase before entering the financial negotiations”, according to a French source close to the dossier, which assesses the potential contract of six to ten billion euros. ”
The Delegate General for Armaments of the Ministry of Defense french, Laurent Collet-Billon, said for his part hoped “a contract signed in 2009, in an interview with Les Echos.
This could for example be at the Dubai Air Show, held from 15 to 19 November, said the French source.
Concerning the requirements for an improved aircraft, the engine manufacturer Snecma already stated working on more powerful engines for this contract. The Rafales emirates could have a surge of 9 tonnes against 7.5 tons for aircraft french.
The customer also wants the missile air-air long-range Meteor, a European art weapons, according to industry sources. The missile group MBDA is not yet in use in European armies.
The Emirates also want the radar, built by Thales, a model is more sophisticated and more powerful than that the team had french.
“All that is technical advance. We do everything to meet the technical needs of customers,” said Dassault Aviation CEO Charles Edelstenne au salon du Bourget.
The public position taken by the Emirates Friday shows that “things are moving” even if “it is not over,” said Edelstenne.
Dassault had warned that there would be no announcement of orders for its Rafale Le Bourget but “contacts” with potential foreign customers, which would advance folders.
If these negotiations should lead, Abu Dhabi would be the first foreign customer of the Rafale.
Despite contacts with India, Libya, Switzerland, Greece and Brazil in particular, the manufacturer has not yet been able to export its combat aircraft. Under the contracts, it is in competition with the European Eurofighter, the Swedish Gripen, the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and F-16 United States or the Russian MiG.
Discussions with the Emirates are also on the pattern of their resumed sixty Mirage 2000, the highest standard and more modern than the Mirage french, that they would be separated in case of purchase of the Rafale. The government progressed on this point, Judge Edelstenne.
President Nicolas Sarkozy tried to push forward the highly political issue of the sale of the Rafale when it went in late May in the Emirates to inaugurate a French military base. The two countries are also bound by a defense agreement, renewed during the visit of Mr Sarkozy.
arthuroRAFALE / Émirats: Negotiations are progressing
AFP, 19/06/2009
Of “substantial progress” had been made on the export of sixty Rafale United Arab Emirates, the contract could be concluded before the end of the year, it was learned Friday from a French source close to the record. “On hopes to sign before the end of the year and perhaps as early as mid-November at the fair in Dubai “, it said the same source as the Rafale, never sold for export, is once again the one of the stars of the Air Show and Space Bourget.
The Emirate News Agency WAM reported Friday that the armed forces of the United Arab Emirates had submitted to the Government french their technical and operational specifications for aircraft Rafale. The Emirates had announced in 2008 that they were considering “seriously” to replace its 60 Mirage 2000 combat aircraft the latest Dassault.
“The President of the Republic, following closely the developments of the ongoing negotiations with the United Arab Emirates for the acquisition of 60 Rafale aircraft, welcomed the advance of the dossier as just announced the Government of the federation of the UAE “, said shortly after the Elysée in a statement.” (…) This announcement is great news for France and its aviation industry. It confirms the excellent qualities of the Rafale. It is also the mark the close links between France and the UAE, “the communiqué.
“They have asked us for improvements (Rafale), which we agree, some will be funded by the Emirates and other, more generic, we appear reasonable,” according to the same source. “It will be a great satisfaction when the contract is signed but it shows that the aircraft is at the best international standard and will export policy is crucial, “stresses that source. The changes requested would include engines, that the emirates would like more powerful, and radar.
the nexs is in many others french newspaper /press
Economy
The sale of Rafale in the United Arab Emirates is closeBy Matthias Blamont and Benoit Van Overstraeten
PARIS / ABU DHABI (Reuters) – The prospect of a first sale of Rafale for export has become a little more concrete Friday while the United Arab Emirates have sent to France their equipment requirements of the aircraft french fighter.
The Elysée was immediately welcomed the breakthrough in the case, adding follow with attention the progress of the negotiations underway with the United Arab Emirates for the acquisition of 60 Rafale aircraft. ”
“We welcome the progress made and progress of discussions between our company and the UAE. We remain attentive to customer demands and we put every effort to meet its needs in the shortest possible time”, said its share to Reuters a spokesman for Dassault Aviation.
Earlier this month, the French presidency said that discussions had been held between the UAE and France for the possible replacement of the Mirage 2000 from the Air Force emirate by Rafale, manufactured by Dassault Aviation, a contract estimated at between six and eight billion euros.
Earlier in the morning, WAM, the public news agency of the United Arab Emirates, said that “the french government had received the technical specifications and operational requirements of the Rafale by the armed forces of the United Arab Emirates as part of negotiations way between the french and Emirati governments.
“The date of the signing of the agreement (…) should be set at the conclusion of the financial negotiations”, said the agency.
“The President of the Republic, following closely the developments of the ongoing negotiations with the United Arab Emirates for the acquisition of 60 Rafale aircraft, welcomed the advance of the folder as just announced the Government of the federation of the UAE “, the Elysee said in a statement.
“This announcement, which occurs at the Paris Air Show celebrates its centenary, is good news for France and its aviation industry. It confirms the excellent qualities of the Rafale. It is also the mark of the close links between France and the UAE “, yet we read in the press release.
The Rafale fighter “multirole” is currently in use only in the Air Force and French Navy.
At the end of May, the head of the Indian Air Force said that the Rafale could eventually participate in the tender launched by New Delhi for the purchase of 126 fighter planes
arthuro19/06/2009
Urgent: the Emirates say yes to the Rafale, but discuss the price
The United Arab Emirates have just sent to the french government “technical and operational specifications for the purchase of the Rafale. Clearly, the aircraft french is really approved by the UAE armed forces, who wish to acquire sixty combat aircraft of a more modern version than that in use in France, including a radar and more powerful engines. However, the UAE news agency WAM, who announced this morning the news, “the date of signing the contract will be fixed depending on the outcome of financial negotiations.”
French side, it is estimated that this is good news and an important step. After the recent visit of the President of the Republic in the Emirates, industrialists hoped french but does not believe such an announcement during the Paris Air Show, held at this time.
The financial discussions will now take place between the Government and Emirates Industrial french (Dassault, Thales, Safran for the most part). The estimated amount of the contract is between six and eight billion euros.
arthuroI forgot to mention two other items which the pilots really appreciated with the rafale (that we could expect though)…It is the range and the payload carrying capability.
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