arthuroThat is your own claim but i would rather trust A&C.
arthuroI found the article inquestion it was on page 1 of the thread.
From todays air&cosms : (p8) about the swiss evaluation :
Quote:
Lors de l’évaluation du rafale par les forces aériennes suisses, les français ont été très surpris par les demandes des militaires qui ont demandé aux français d’utiliser les équpements de l’avion de combat hors domaine : OSF en mode air sol et nacelle de désignation laser damoclès en air-air. Des essais qui ce sont montrés plus que concluants, à la grande satisfaction des français. Lesquels ont aussi réalisé une brillante démonstration de la nouvelle antenne active du radar RBE2, dont la production en série vient d’être décidée.Google translation :
Quote:
When evaluating the rafale by the Swiss Air Force, the French have been very surprised by the demands of the military who asked the French to use the equipements of the combat aircraft outside their area of use: OSF in air to ground modes and Damocles laser designation in to air-air modes. Tests which showed more than conclusive, to the great satisfaction of French. Which have also produced a brilliant demonstration of the new radar antenna active RBE2, whose serial production has been decided.
arthuroOriginally Posted by Jackonicko
The testing of OSF, OTIS and Pirate in A-G roles, and Damocles and Litening in A-A was always planned to be part of the core, 30-sortie evaluation, Nic.
In fact this wasn’t planned. In the article it is said something like “to the great surprise of the french pilots…” At the end it tells that this testing of osf and the damocles pod out of their range of use was a success as well as the test of the RBE2 AESA on the rafale B301.
arthuroRob is really the most bias and nationalist poster on this the rafale thread with fonk, you can relly feel all the resentment he has. I remember he whished that dassault would exit the fighter market…Which is a shame for an aviation enthousiast. He is the only one here claiming that the rafale is a failure but he only represents himself and is not authoritative at all. In fact his opinion his insignificant.
Fact is the rafale is technically a great success,according to its customer and is many times praised by French member of parliaments from both the majority and the opposition. (something extremely rare for a big military programme). If you read the reports of the french paliament defense commeete (composed of deputies from different parties), they all say in their annual report (that I already posted on this thread), that in the end living the EFA programme was the right decision. In the end It is the AdA and the french taxpayer to decide whether it is a success or not. The fact that the AdA and the taxpayer in the voice of the deputies commited to the F3+ standard is a good indication…Should I remind that the rafale despite being a one nation programme has several years in advance in terms of development ?
True the rafale has still no exports, but at least it performed very well in technical evaluation in opened competitions. The lack of exports is mainly due to france lack of influence comparing to the USA or a four nations consortium and the fact that it uses mostly only french weapons which can also be seen as an asset in some cases.
secondly, as it has been officially stated the rafale doesn’t need any export to be viable although it couldn’t hurt. The fact that the DGA ordered the next batch of improved F3+ standard is an indication.
thirdly they are still a few campaigns running so it is a bit soon for Rob to tout and tell all his hate! Imagine if the rafale won the MRCA competition, he would look stupid no ?
Last but not least many aircrafts have been regarded as being successful without exports. If the AdA can performs very well with the rafale then it will be a success. Quality vs quantity is also something which have already be seen in aviation history during the cold war…
And I always reckognized the typhoon strong points, you are spinning the truth rob, because you are so one sided you want to conform the reality to your views. Your only pleasure is to see the rafale becoming a failure you have nothing to do with aviation enthusiasts. It is true that I can be bias since I like the rafale very much, but still I have borders that I don’t want to cross. I would never whish the typhoon to fail.
arthurowe should try to keep this conversation civil. I can see a flame coming. Although I am quite skeptical (to say the least) about jackonicko’s claims in general, it is still possible to discuss with him normaly which isn’t the case with Fonk.
I hope that next posters will be able to “defuse” this situation.
arthuroIndeed jackoniko, the swiss wanted to test the OSF in AtG and the Damocles in AtA and according to Air et cosmos this was a success. They also tested the RBE2 AESA on the rafale B301 which performed brillantly (still according to A&C which was quoting an unnamed pilot).
I already posted the translated article on this thread or the n°3 I don’t remember.
arthuroa automatic translation of an article
After the Saab Gripen, Rafale is currently rated by armasuisse. On the one hand, it is to verify that it matches the criteria defined by the Air Force, on the other hand you have an overview of its performance and its operational efficiency.
The Rafale from Dassault Aviation is competing with the Gripen and the Eurofighter to win a tender that would replace the old F-5 Tiger, American design, serving in the Air Force over the past thirty years . To do this, the army should have a budget for an amount of between 2.1 billion and 2.4 billion francs, which would allow the purchase of twenty devices.
To win the game, the French authorities, who support efforts to export the Rafale, proposed to Switzerland a device equivalent to 98% to that team the French army. Switzerland would have access to tools very sensitive in terms of electronic warfare and there would be no restriction on arms and technology transfers. It is also proposed to Bern to take part in future developments of the Rafale, which would constitute a major industrial asset for Switzerland. In addition, Swiss pilots could train in France and the opportunity to enjoy some French airlift capabilities, particularly in terms of aerial surveillance with AWACS and refueling in flight. Advantage which might be important: the Rafale aircraft is a silent, as it is able to take off without post-combustion. This element is likely to weigh in the balance to preserve the tranquility of the civilian population living around the airport.
The Swiss market is an attractive prospect for Dassault Aviation, which proposed the Rafale to other countries like the United Arab Emirates, Brazil, India, Greece, Libya. Especially since this tender is followed closely by the UDC National Councilor Thomas Hurter, who is also the chairman of the subcommittee responsible for scores of replacing the F-5. The Swiss was elected to the relations concerned that some parliamentarians had with the three aircraft manufacturers in the race, while keeping an eye on the contracts they have with armasuisse between 2004 and 2008 to try to detect possible irregularities . Several suspicions of corruption hanging in effect on similar contracts, including the Czech Republic, where investigations are ongoing and Austria, where a parliamentary inquiry was opened. (Blog “Secret Defense” by Jean-Dominique Merchet)
Submitted by Hervé de Weck on Tue, 2008-11-04 08:26
advantage that the typhoon also has of course!
interesting to learn that on top of training areas and facilities france offer AWCS and refulers services.
arthuro[from another poster on military photos, here is the detail of the evaluation :
As mentioned before the officials in Switzerland revealed the evaluation criteria and the importance of every single aspect.
The original evaluation looked like that:1.operational capability (60 %)
– A2A (50 %)
– A2G (20%)
– Recce (20 %)
– growth potential (10 %)2. operational suitability (15 %)
– maintenance (30 %)
– militia compatible (25 %)
– compatibility with infrastructure of Switzerland ( 25 %)
– noise pollution (20 %)3. Cooperation (25 %)
– industry off-set (70 %)
– military cooperation (30 %)After the criteria were revealed on the media day last week a lot of criticism emerged. Basically some people were outraged over the fact that “bomb dropping” is four times more important than noise pollution. The officials already reacted and declared that the factor A2G will be less important and “noise pollution” will gain some weight. Basically it means that A2G will be mostly erased from the evaluation. The original article is only for subscribers but my summery says it all
arthuroplease don’t aswer to this provocation. Don’t give him what he wants. (a flame)
arthuroEven if I see the typhoon winning because the swiss are mainly looking for a point defense fighter, the gripen and the rafale have also good reasons to be chosen.
In fact you can find good reasons for the three types of aircraft to win. Ultimately it is up to the swiss to balance and choose which type of performance is relevant for them. But it is indeed a tight race.
We can only speculate about that and my own speculation says that what they need is an aircraft which can scramble and intercept in the minimum time. Range is not that big an issue knowing the size of the swiss territory. So the typhoon is for me the most appropriate platform.
The points I see for the rafale, although I think they are not at the same level of “relevancy”, are a better persistance (it can remain airborne longer for a CAP) ,a better radar and EW suite (although the captor and DASS offer well enough performance for the swiss) and better recce capabilities.
The gripen is the closest in terms of capabilities to the F5 and would be the most sensible choice, but it seems that they are not necessarry looking for the cheapest solution, but the solution which can the better fulfil their missions. (mostly sky policing).
arthurosome pictures of the rafale in paris
On picture N°2 you can see a rafale pilot which is also the SPECTRA officer for the AdA. Both pilots there did TLP, afghanistan (one used the 30mm canon of the rafale there) and RED FLAG. This was a saturday so there is quite a lot of people around but I had the opportunity to talk to them during the week so I had more time to talk to them.
the pilot in the picture also make an apparition on a rafale promo video on youtube at 1’30:
arthuroM88 ECO should be a more advancing project / concept comparing with the original M88-3 plan ~ It plans to achieve the performance of M88-3 (20,000 Ib AB thrust or much longer engine life, better SFC, lower maintaining cost….) while still keeping roughly the same size, weight, and diameter as M88-2.
However, M88 ECO is very different from in-service M88-2 ~ about 60% components of M88 ECO are the completely new or upgraded ones. I think the difference between M88 ECO and M88-2 may just like the difference between F100-PW220 and F100-PW229.
You are right about that.
In the article that we read with nicolas 10 in A&C it also mentions that current M88 engines could be progressiveley upgraded to the ECO standard thanks to its modular design. Some ECO parts could be added during its operational life and during major maintenance operations. That is also a big asset comparing to the M88-3.
Also about the history of the M88 program, I rember that a M88-4 version was studied some time ago with a power of 10,5t 😮 But like the dash 3 it is dead now.
arthurosome other info from u-fokker post.
2/ M88 ECO technology program The ECO technology program, designed to demonstrate new technologies that could reduce operating costs and increase dispatch reliability, was completed at the end of 2007. It also aimed to study the feasibility of increasing the engine’s thrust without changing its weight or fuel consumption.
Two M88 engines were dedicated to this program, one for performance testing and the other for endurance testing. The M88 ECO program satisfied all of its initial objectives, spanning increased engine part life, lower cost of ownership (including reduced operating costs) and higher performance (4,000 total accumulated cycles/TAC).
The test engines logged more than 150 hours of flight tests, and the equivalent of 1,800 hours of flight under Rafale mission conditions. This program also checked out the feasibility of increasing M88 engine thrust to about 20,000 lb.
ECO will guarantee the competitiveness of all evolved versions of the Rafale fighter, including both maximum takeoff weight (MTOW) for higher payload capacity and performance throughout the flight envelope.
arthuroAlso, I remember a Air&Cosmos article saying that two actual engines were tested, one for increased life, the other one for increased thrust. After it’s customer’s choice. However the R&D on details and industrialization for the IL one (Increased Life one) is gona be finished since it’s the one the customer AdA chosen (FADEC, further tests, integration, etc…). But not for the 90 KN one yet.
+1
I read the same article (I suscribed to this weekly since 1997!) and It was clearely said that the increase of power to 9t OR the better servicability was up to customer’s choice.
Both engine are basically the same but with a different software setting.
The M88-3 (which is dead now but was tested) technology was certainly implemented in the ECO, but the dash 3 was not the same engine it had a bigger diameter.
http://www.snecma.com/IMG/pdf/Fact_s…_CGP_VA_OK.pdf
M88 ECO technology program
The ECO technology program, designed to demonstrate new technologies that could reduce operating costs and increase dispatch reliability, was completed at the end of 2007. It also aimed to study the feasibility of increasing the engine’s thrust without changing its weight or fuel consumption.
In the fall of 2004, Snecma kicked off tests of a technology demonstrator designed to reduce the M88’s total cost of ownership and lay groundwork for future enhancements.
The M88 ECO demonstrator focuses on several areas of improvement: low-pressure compressor with a “blisk” – integrally-bladed disk – offering higher flowrates and compression ratio; a new afterburner system with a ceramic matrix composite (CMC) nozzle to reduce weight; and a new high-pressure turbine architecture with cooled blades to increase mean time between inspections. All in all, the ECO program concerns about 60% of the parts on the M88.
The M88 ECO program satisfied all of its initial objectives, spanning increased engine part life, lower cost of ownership (including reduced operating costs) and higher performance (4,000 total accumulated cycles/TAC). The test engines logged more than 150 hours of flight tests, and the equivalent of 1,800 hours of flight under Rafale mission conditions. This program also checked out the feasibility of increasing M88 engine thrust to about 20,000 lb.
BTW, the new FOX Three is available.
let’s read this one !
arthuroSens,
I am sorry but you are actually making some confusions…You are mixing the M88-3 and the M88 ECO which are different programmes.
The M88-3 is dead and this engine was bigger than current M88-2E4. It was tested on a banch and was proposed to korea but this programme is dead. So speaking of the M88-3 is bogus.
The ECO is a programme ,which is fully funded an ordered by the DGA for the F3+ standard, is an new M88 engine (60% redisign but with the same diameter) where you can choose an increase of power to 9t but with same same constraints as current M88-2E4 OR have the same power as today but with better maintenance, life span, lower fuel consumption than current M88 in service.
The AdA choosed the second option.
The only difference between these two versions the software limit via the FADEC.
Sign In
