arthuroI am sure the F-35 radar will be superior also to the Rafale AESA. This does not say anything about how the Gripen NG and the Rafale AESAs will compare.
Until the 5th Batch and the GaN RBE2 AESA.
arthuroAnd no, even IF they had the same diameter, Rafale still couldn’t keep up with Gripen on modules, since the latter had enough depth for a rotating back end.
There just isn’t growth potential in Rafale radar.
But when you come back to reality rafale radar is just better and is close to become operationnal. According to Norway, Brazil and India gripen’s radar is poorly performing…So it is useless to attcak another radar which is praised during evaluations to escape the hard truth.:D A radar is not just about size its also alot of experience and development work. Without this you will only be able to cook eggs an bacon on your array !:p:);)
Well you got it already, it was from Dassault:
No it was from Jon Lake which makes a difference.
arthuro-I would like to see a direct source origin of the diameter (like Dassault)…Because I don’t know how you can get this info precisely. That’s something I never read even in the most well informed french publications.
-Second point as the gripen needs enough room to rotate its antenna, at a similar diameter the rafale will ecompass more modules. And finally with a stronger energy power output it will have another advantage.
To finish you can attack rafale radar as much as you want its the gripen AESA radar who came recently under heavy criticism, not rafale which according to indians performed well.:D;)
still witing for a source for your 850 modules claim…For now I’ve given two who says 1000. And I know there are others from published magazines like DSI. Tmor had it if I recall well.
MMRCA Part 4 – The French Squall
Livefist , july 2009[…]
STRENGHTSThe Rafale smacks of the intangible “newness” of being a truly contemporary airplane built for today’s missions. Conversely, it suffers none of the reputational hazards of being an old souped up platform with tinkering under the bonnet. Pitched as an “omnirole” fighter, the IAF has incrementally been convinced of what this term really means. Pitched as a logical next-step to the Mirage — which the IAF loves with a passion — the people at Dassault have managed to pitch well the idea that operating the Rafale will be a progression of the same ownership/operation experience. The pitch that IAF pilots will take to the Rafale more easily than any of the other fighters is something that has managed to be persuasive to an extent. While the Thales RBE2 AESA radar is still its final developmental phase, the IAF has been provided with regular and detailed updates on the radar’s capabilities and performance parameters, and one officer, who has been part of the teams that receive these updates on a regular basis, says the IAF had no reason to doubt the laid down capabilities, and was in fact deeply impressed with what the French had managed to achieve in what is a science simply dominated by two American firms. Not just that, Dassault says the Rafale is the only aircraft in its class to be equipped with active arrays for both its radar and electronic warfare suite (EWS). IAF officers have in fact regularly been invited to witness RBE2 prototypes being tested on the Hack — a Mirage-2000 test bed for the radar since 2003. In April 2008, the Rafale opened its operational account by being deployed to Afghanistan and being flown on 220 active combat missions, involving 730 flight hours. This may be peanuts compared to the operational logs of the Rafale’s competition in the MMRCA, but the IAF recognises that this is a new aircraft in a transitory phase of tranche-level modernisation. At Red Flag 2008, IAF pilots got up close with the Rafale. A report on the Rafale was in fact informally submitted to Vayu Bhawan by the team when it returned. TheIAF has been given detailed presentations on the Rafale’s multi-sensor data fusion system — the RBE2 radar, Link 16 data bus, Front Sector Optronic (FSO) and SPECTRA self-defense suite and has been impressed by the ensemble. The Rafale is also considered by the IAF to be possibly the only plane in the sweepstakes with a focused use of composites for stealth and reduced RCS. The Rafale will also come with new, high-capability variants of MBDA missiles that the IAF has operated for decades, and places a lot of value on. Former Navy chief Admiral Arun Prakash, as FOC-in-C Western Naval Command, flew the Rafale during an official visit to Paris. A few other senior officers of the IAF have also had a chance to spin up in the otherwise reclusive Rafale. The sense that Dassault isn’t displaying its wares like the other five contenders are, is something that has somehow been looked at as “proper” by some in the Defence Ministry. This is, after all, a serious defence procurement, some say — “there’s no need for so much song and dance at Aero India every year”. The Rafale is the only aircraft in the sweepstakes that comes with an explicitly stated nuclear delivery capability. None of the others mentioned it. And the reason I mention this is that some very senior officers in the air force, are wondering why. The Rafale is also among the least familiar of the six jets, at least in the Indian media, simply because Dassault has stayed well away from courting publicity — this is also looked upon by the IAF/MoD as being representative of a deeper, more valuable quality during a procurement process: discretion. Finally, defence deals with France have always been expensive, but always been excellent professional and operational experiences for the Indian forces. From the Mirages to Alouettes to the Mysteres. No spares problems. No nonsense. The French could also leverage significant political power to push India as the prestigious launch customer of the Rafale, though not quite like the Jaguar’s initial years were. A maximum 11 Gs in critical manoeuvers doesn’t hurt either.
WEAKNESSES
The albatross around the Rafale remains its relatively unproven stature, and of course, the fact that it hasn’t ever been exported. As one of the most expensive (flyaway cost) aircraft in the sweepstakes, it also comes with possibly the largest price-tag in terms of total contract cost, though Dassault has made strenuous efforts to convey to the IAF that its use of Dassault aircraft over time, particularly the Mirage, will significantly erode the total commitment necessary in terms of new infrastructure. Obviously, the IAF isn’t buying this — they’re treating the Rafale as any new aircraft type. There are almost no articulated weaknesses in specifications, though the IAF is anxious about an aircraft that has been fielded for a lot of competitions unsuccessfully. Finally, the government has recently awarded France with the huge Scorpene deal. Awarding the MMRCA to France would be politically too much for too little. The leadership of Nicolas Sarkozy doesn’t half do what Jacques Chirac’s did in its time.
arthuroFrom Thales :
22 April 2009
Thales announced today that its RBE2 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar has successfully completed a new series of tests on the Rafale at the Cazaux flight test centre in Southwest France from February to March. These tests, carried out jointly by Thales and the French defence procurement agency (DGA), provided functional validation of the radar’s operating modes.
This milestone marks the latest step towards qualifying the RBE2 AESA radars this year in readiness for delivery of the first two units to Dassault Aviation during the first quarter of 2010. The radars will be installed on the aircraft in 2011 for delivery to the French Air Force early in 2012.
The successful tests are the latest in a long line of key milestones. Thales began developing an AESA radar demonstrator in the 1990s and conducted exploratory tests at the flight test centre in 2002 and 2003 to refine the concept. In 2004, the French defence procurement agency DGA backed the project with a contract to develop a prototype of an operational active-module radar.At the end of 2006, Thales completed its first active phased array, comprising some 1,000 gallium-arsenide T/R modules manufactured by European firm United Monolithic Semiconductors (UMS).
The active phased array, which replaces the passive array in the RBE2 currently operating on the Rafale, offers many advantages:
– range extended by over 50% for future compatibility with new weapon systems like Meteor
– higher module reliability for reduced cost of ownership (no array overhaul required for 10 years)
– waveform agility for high-resolution synthetic aperture (SAR) imagery in air-to-ground mode and better resistance to jamming.Pierre-Yves Chaltiel, Senior Vice President in charge of Thales’s Aerospace Solutions for Governments Sector, commented on the achievement of this new milestone: “The success of this latest series of tests on the RBE2 AESA radar consolidates Thales’s European leadership position. Moreover, it will help to affirm the Rafale’s technological superiority as the omnirole aircraft performs flight demonstrations for potential export customers, confirming its excellent performance as it has recently in Switzerland and the United Arab Emirates.”
About Thales
Thales is a leading international electronics and systems group, addressing Defence, Aerospace and Security markets worldwide. The Group’s civil and military businesses develop in parallel and share a common base of technologies to serve a single objective: the security of people, property and nations. Thales’s leading-edge technology is supported by 22,500 R&D engineers who offer a capability unmatched in Europe to develop and deploy field-proven mission-critical information systems. The Group builds its growth on its unique multi-domestic strategy based on trusted partnerships with national customers and market players, while leveraging its global expertise to support local technology and industrial development. Thales employs 68,000 people in 50 countries with 2008 revenues of €12.7 billion.
arthuro“Around 1000 modules” -typical reply when you don’t want to confess,
someone counted the modules and IIRC it was 850.
To my knowledge, France traditionally employs relatively small radars, combined with relatively high power output to compensate, but this also makes them easier to spot, kinda like a flashlight in dark.
No the number is 1000+ actually. That was published in DSI. I think Tmor has the source for that. And around 1000 is quite a big difference with 850.
arthuroWhich explains why the RAF are studying an electronic attack variant!
Thats quite alot of extra capacity….
I agree with you ! But I think the RAF will invest in other areas before (AtG, meteor,AESA) and then make an order and save money because of the spending cuts…In fact the RAF is not even funding the AESA radar as far as I understand. The funding comes directly from the industry. I am not sure that there is any firm comimitment from the partner nation to buy the Typhoon AESA although it is very likely.
That’s a difference with the RBE2 AESA program as the french government has financed the program along with the industry and as already ordered the rafale AESA (60 airframes!). First operationnal AESA radar to be delivered this month to Dassault.
arthuroMaximum power supply (peak) for the gripen would be 10kW with a lower normal operating power (let’s say 5kW or 6kW) for instance when the rafale average and casual working power would be 10kW with a higher peak power. That’s how I understand it but I am not an expert. Just using common sense and understanding.
Perhaps Gripen NG’s radar issues have nothing to do with that and it is linked to another problem. Remember that it was just a speculation from me from what I thought to be the likeliest limitation.
arthuroin addition, i know i’m not the best for trawling for figures, but I understand the Typhoon AESA to be physically larger than either the RBE2 or Gripen radars. If so, how does that compare?
Typhoon radar is bigger so it will have an advantage in range. That’s a plus for the Typhoon. No question about it.
To balance this a bit you have to put RWR in the equation as you can pick up radar emissions before being detected. So the advantage will often depend on the tactics used as seen in ATLC where the Typhoon had a radar range advantage. A&C also reported that pilots found that rafale RCS was lower than the Typhoon. But against aircrafts in the Indian region Typhoon bigger radar is an asset.
Obligatory : its 1000 modules for the rafale and the typhoon is above 1400 I think.
As far as Europe’s combat aircraft programmes are concerned, the Rafale seems to have established a lead over Typhoon and Gripen in the race to integrate an active array antenna. This is primarily because–unlike its competitors–the transition to active-array technology on the Rafale’s electronically scanned RBE2 was planned from the outset, avoiding the need for the more extensive (and expensive) modifications required on the mechanical antennas of the Typhoon and Gripen. The increase in range that the new technology will bring is deemed essential if the aircraft is to fully exploit the potential of the future ramjet-powered Meteor missile, due to enter service in the early years of the next decade. Without it, pilots will rely on target designation from another platform to strike targets at the limits of the Meteor envelope.
All aircraft will benefit from the collaborative work accomplished under the trinational Airborne Multirole Solid State Active Array Radar (AMSAR) programme, which was launched in 1993 to develop a European capability in GaAs power devices and subsequently gave rise to UMS (EADS/Thales). Work under AMSAR is currently focused on beam forming through computation. The goal is to cancel reception in jammed sectors and improve rejection of parasitic ground echos, though at the cost of a more complex antenna architecture.
In France, Thales launched its own active antenna radar demonstrator programme in the late 1990s incorporating US components. The resulting mockup was tested at the CEV flight test centre in 2002 on a Mystere XX test bed, and the following year on Rafale. In February 2004, the French MoD’s DGA procurement branch awarded 85 million [euro] under the DRAMA programme to develop a prototype active-module radar representative of an operational system.
Thales is currently working on its first DRAMA antenna featuring UMS components. The antenna is scheduled to be delivered to the CEV test centre in midyear for flight testing on the Mystere XX and Mirage 2000 through 2009. The objective is to complete qualification of the new radar by 2009 and deliver two prototypes to Dassault the following year for integration into the aircraft and validation of the full standard. The first two production radars are currently scheduled for delivery in 2011; they will equip the last two Rafales in the current production batch. Half of the 400 million [euro] in funding for the Rafale “Roadmap”–the development of additional capabilities beyond the F3 standard–has been earmarked for the introduction of an active array antenna on the RBE2. This will involve an array of around 1,000 GaAs transmit/receive modules to replace the existing passive scanning antenna and the travelling wave tube (TWT) on the transmitter. The goal is to have the resulting AA version of the RBE2 ready for series production to equip Rafales delivered from 2012 under the next multi-year order, which is expected to be signed in early 2009.
According to Thales, the RBE2 AA will offer 50% greater range than the current RBE2 and a huge increase in reliability–major overhaul every 7-10 years, compared with a current TWT service life of around 100 hours. It will also be possible to generate SAR images in air-to-ground mode with 1 m resolution or better, and to detect at long range low-reflection airborne targets, including stealthy UAVs and UCAVs.
arthuroA&C quote sweetman, they make no such claim themselves and infact no one else does either
True that Sweetman recently quoted A&C. But,
1) A&C did precisely refer to active cancellation because of the rafale stealth demonstrator being funded (original source french 2010 defense budget). That was a well informed speculation from A&C actually when they analysed the content of the 2010 budget.
2) Sweetman already spoke about AC and spectra many years before when he interviewed Pierre Yves Châtiel.
3) A&C already mentionned several years ago the Carbon EW (same tech as spectra) pod demonstrator on a mystere XX testbed managed the biz jet to remain undetected against modern SAM radars at NATO mace X exercise.
Afterward it is up to everyone to make his opinion and I know it is controversial. Rezende revelations have thrown more fuel on the fire.
arthuroI am no expert on Radar exept basic understanding. I just reported it as it was written in A&C.
It seems consistent when you compare it with the single engine gripen. 10kW average for the rafale against 10kW peak for the gripen doesn’t seem shoking to me. Two engines will allow more electricity production.
I remember that I read that the SU35 had a 20kW average power output !!
arthuroAs for A2A, (and the rest) i think it’s totally unrealistic to expect any more then a skirmish between 3 nuke states.
That’s ewactly why you need a credible and modern force so that any potential ennemy would fear reataliations.
If we follow your logic then the MRCA and other big indian defense deal are pretty useless. reality contradicts you.
arthuroWell not only…I can garanty that Spectra play a major role in rafale nuclear detterence and its deep strike capability. You can hear it very often in the french specialized press. investing 3 billions Euros (source sweetman and A&C) in an onboard jammer is hardly justifiable if it doesn’t serve any strategic role. No wonder there is such a strong buzz around it with Active cancellation (Sweetman, Air&Cosmos).
arthuroWell that’s your opinion as a forumer but for the moment it seems that the IAF doesn’t share your view (If the leak is confirmed). They are opting for more performance despite the price.
My opinion is that the rafale+spectra will do the job. Billions are invested to keep the rafale as a credible nuclear detterence vector and an ambitious upgrade path has already started to cope with next decade threats. I know that some refuse to consider it seriously but the lattest pieces of informations (DSI, A&C, Sweetman, Rezende) tend to confirm that this piece of hardware is at the cornerstone of rafale survivability.
As for air superiority…Well look at ATLC and Corsica. It might be controversial but the rafale can arguably decently claim to be the best in both AtG and AtA of the fourth gen fighters in the light of its performance. At least it has destoyed the certainty about the AtA hierarchy with the Typhoon.
arthuroHmm, I wonder about that.
According to Saab, the current radar has a peak power of > 10 kW:
Gripen radar
AFAIK the peak power of an AESA radar is typically 10 W pr. module; so for 1000 modules you would expect peak power of 10 kW. This means that today’s Gripen should be able to deal with a “typical” 1000-module AESA already.
I do not know what the peak power of the modules for the NG AESA will be. It may well be above 10 W, however one should take into account that the NG will have beefed up power supplies but will also use more modern electronic components that spend less power than today’s. Therefore I doubt that the power supply is a problem.
What is the peak power of the RBE2 modules?
Good find ! And that tend to confirm my idea…I posted an A&C report like a year ago about the RBE2 AESA as it was the main subject dealt in that issue.
Last time I was looking for it via Google but I lost trace unfortunately. I remember that Toan used to copy paste this report so perhaps he will post it (or someone else).
>>RBE2 AESA average power with normal use if I remember well is 10kW. The peak power is certainly much higher.
EDIT : I found it ! In the rafale news 5 thread in december 2008 :
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=86497&page=3
I’ve just read the Air&cosmos n°2150 (5 december) which deals with AESA radars.
Of course there is an article about the RBE2 AESA.
Some facts from an interview with Gérard Christmann, Thales vice president in charge of Electronic Warfare solutions.
-The searched volume is increased by a factor 3 to 4 against the PESA RBE2
-tracking range is increased by 30% to 50%
-The RBE2 AESA is very similar to the APG-79 in terms of technology and maturity.
-The power processing has been dramatically increased with 4 new calculators.
-Power supply has an average power of 10kW. Which is an increase with previous PESA RBE2.
-The AESA RBE2 will allow sub-metric SAR images.
-The ability to jamm or transmit datas thanks to this new radar is closely considered but not funded for the moment.
-First AESA rafale should be delivered at the very beginning of 2011 (from the current batch). It will also equip the next batch of rafale which is expected to be ordered soon: beginning of 2009 for 60 airframes.
-The Swiss were able to see the gain of performance of this new radar as they could compare to the PESA RBE2. This evaluation of the AESA antenna by the swiss was a success.
-4 radar prototypes are used for trials-1 or 2 will be affected for exports trials. one is tested on the B301 an the other one is tested on the mirage 2000 B501 from the CEV.
-final software validation is expected for the first quarter of year 2010.
-This radar could be licensed in India or Brazil.
-Full ToT is possible.I forgot : the french government will garanty that a minimum of 11 RBE2 AESA radars will be produced each year for the next batch.
arthuroBomb truck certainly… but to penetrate deeply in ennemy territory with a good survivability western 4th gen aircrafts brings interesting features* and to be able to carry a good load of AtG weapons at a good range and decent performance is an advantage.
*(integrated avionics, sensor fusion, lower RCS, advanced jamming, a wide choice of smart stand off munitions)
Afterward it is a balance between price and performances. And it seems (to be confirmed though) that the IAF is looking for performance despite the aditionnal costs. The Typhoon and the rafale are the most expensive in the tender !
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