arthurothyphoon1
The Typhoon has a better T/W ratio than the rafale so its performance is better.But that doesn’t mean rafale is underpowered :
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=aZsUntlm2Pw&feature=related
This is realized with 3*1250 liters drop tanks and 4 AAM and a rafale M the heaviest variant
a nice demo in swizerland :
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=OUioAhcsirw
in the vertical from minimum speed at 3’50-4’25 and nice 9g minimum radius turn at 6’05.
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=bBSvgCL2VA0&feature=related
But fighter jets are always amazing to watch !
arthuroJean Paul Latrige is a Dassault employee – quoting him on Rafale is like quoting Ays Rauen or Brian Phillipson on Typhoon. I’m not saying that he’s a Typhon basher, just that he’s a patriotic Frenchman, and a loyal Dassault employee, so he naturally ‘talks up’ his own company’s product.
This it what we call in french “un procès d’intention” which means that you project your thoughts on how this person would behave, but he was perfectly relax when discussing about that matters. I dindn’t feel he was “flag waving”. Working for a firm or an airforce (Moussez) don’t mean that you are a liar.
We are often arguing about sources:
I always prefer a source which is namely quoted (Moussez) in a serious news paper like the “International Herald Tribune” and which credibility is at stake than mysterious unnammed “I was told so”. If there is a BAE official press release claiminig they won an evaluation it would be great ! And if another firm wanted to object something they can do it…But corridor rumor are not reliable enough for me. My point is confirmed both by official press release and personnal conversation. That the reason for I am arguing with you.
About rafale weaknesses he quoted the lack of HMS and DVI (which are postponed for lack of funding).
I won’t reply to the whole evaluation issue. I perfectly know your points but we just have to disagree. Same thing for the MMI.
arthuroJackoniko,
The core of the problem is that I have also met people which tell me exactly the opposite about the MMI.
And unlike you I am able to give a name “Jean Paul Latrige” International support manager for dassault’s military activities which I met during the last paris air show two times.
This guy has participated in all the selling campaign since the mirage 4. And what he says about MMI contradict you. He quoted the RAF chief which he met when he flew aboard the rafale. And he admitted rafale’s superiority in that particular area. He even said that he would like some of the rafale MMI characteristics for the typhoon.
He also confirms rafale victory for technical evaluation in Korea, Singapore and that the rafale was second behind the F35 and ahead of the typhoon during the Dutch evaluation which was a comprehensive study with more than 600 criterions.
I know that you will try to discredit this source, but this man was nothing like a typhoon basher and admitted that the typhoon have an edge in terms of kinematics. This was an informal and very informative conversation with an honest man who was not boasting every time about the rafale. Besides I am perfectly able to have a sense of “criticism” and I am not the kind of guy which will believe everything granted it is positive about the rafale.
I would add that in a conversation you can “feel” if the guy talking to you is serious or not and he definitely was.
If you are a journalist you can try to contact him. That would be interesting.
Also at a personal level I discussed with two rafale pilots in paris during the celebration of 100 years of French aeronautics three weeks ago. When I asked them to give me the aircraft main strength they answered the MMI and data fusion.
But unlike you we have also a profusion of checkable sources praising rafale’s MMI such as
-Greek pilots praising rafale cockpit during the latest rafale F2 deployment
-US navy pilot quoting the modern design of the cockpit in the latest AFM
-Three pilots which flew in the rafale and each of them wrote an article about this experience and they all praised rafale MMI and cockpit. (A British pilot, a former US navy pilot and a French pilot)
-We have the air chief marshall for the RAF which flew in the rafale and spontaneously praised rafale cockpit!!!!
-And several articles quoting French pilots praising rafale’s MMI.
To make a genesis of my speech to understand why I don’t believe you:
The cross checking of published articles and what I was told lead me to think that MMI is one of rafale’s biggest strength.
On your side we should only believe the usual “I was told so”. And you are the only source to claim typhoon MMI’s superiority so it is a bit hard to be confident knowing your Typhoon bias. The only thing is that your claims have been so much copy/pasted that many people take it for granted.
So when you say that Typhoon MMI is “vastly superior” I find it very very suspect… Especially in an area where it is very subjective and hardly measurable.
PS : I always acknowledged typhoon superiority in many other aeras like better accelerations, better supersonic performance (speed and agility) and more radar range. I just contest typhoon MMI supposed superiority. So don’t accuse me of believing that rafale is better than everything else. I just focus on this point.
arthuroCertainly the gripen NG will be a big improvement. But It is (perhaps?) too early to make definitive comments about it.
But that being said I am quite confident that the Gripen NG will close the gap in many aeras or even master some of them.
Unfortunately I don’t recall every details about the article. My bet is that they meant that the data fusion of the FSO, spectra, radar, L16 and mica IR. So it would be more a question of weapon system architecture. But this is only my two cents.
Rafale MMI will evolve with the introduction of new capacities in the coming years. For instance very recently to integrate the “decalco” datlink for CAS with ground forces.
arthurohttp://www.air-defense.net/Forum_AD/index.php?topic=8521.0;wap2
I found some direct pilot quote with a quick google search of this article in the forum I’ve talked you about.
Dans un article d’ Air Fan de mai 2007, des Gripen sont venus en France en échange à Reims avec des F1CR. Au delà des missions de reconnaissance, les Gripen ont simulé des dogfights et du BVR avec les Mirages F1. Je ne précise pas le résultat, tout le monde s’en doute… [28]
en revanche, les Gripen ont été opposés au Rafale, et là il semblerait que nos amis suédois aient eu de belles sueurs froides…
Ainsi des raids combinés ont été organisés selon Air Fan ( deux ou quatre F1CR en reco escortés par deux Gripen, plus deux Rafales en sweep, avec un Awacs, face à quatre 2000-5 en CAP), ainsi que des interceptions Gripen/Rafale en altitude. Les aviateurs suédois connaissaient peu le nouveau biréacteur français dont ils redoutent par dessus tout la capacité de tir longue distance avec le Mica IR . Les aviateurs suédois “qui se sont enroulés avec des Rafale en combat rapproché ont aussi découvert l’énorme réserve de puissance dont dispose cet avion, même lourdement chargé”
Egalement, selon un pilote de du 1/33 ,connaisseur du Rafale, et qui a volé sur Rafale et Gripen.
” le Gripen c’est à peu près les capacités du 2000-5 Mk2, en un peu plus petit. Mais en terme de fusion de l’information, de capacité d’emport, et de technologie du système d’arme, il y’a un pas entre le JAS39 et le Rafale”Autre commentaire :”en visite à l’EC 1/7, les pilotes suédois ont été manifestement surpris par les capacités d’emport du Rafale et par le fusionnement des diffférents capteurs”
simple google traduction :
In an article of Air Fan in May 2007, the Gripen came to France in Reims trade with F1CR. Beyond reconnaissance missions, the Gripen have mock dogfights and BVR with the Mirages F1. I do not specify the outcome, nobody doubts … [28]
However, the Gripen were opposed to the rafale, and here it seems that our Swedish friends had nice cold sweats …
Thus combined raids were conducted according to Air Fan (two or four in F1CR reco escorted by two Gripen, plus two rafale sweep with an AWACS, facing four in 2000-5 CAP) and interceptions Gripen / Rafale in altitude. Swedish aviators had little knowledge of the new French jet which they fear above all the ability to shoot long distance with the Mica IR. Swedish aviators “who have fought with rafale in combat have also discovered huge reserve of power available to that aircraft, even heavily loaded”
Also, according to a pilot, 1 / 33, connoisseur of the Rafale, which flew onboard Rafale and Gripen.
“Gripen is about the capacity of 2000-5 Mk2, in a little smaller. But in terms of the merger of information, payload capacity and technology of the weapon system, there ‘is a gap between JAS39 and Rafale ”Another comment: “the visiting EC 1 / 7, Swedish drivers were clearly surprised by the carrying capacity of the Rafale and the fusion of diffférents sensors “
arthuroI haven’t unfortunatelly.It was a paper magazine. This was from the monthly “air fan” which I bought when the issue about the gripen deployement in reims on a mirage F1CR base (where I have done a part of my studies I could here them every day).
During this deployement they could encounter the rafale from st diziers which is a city close to Reims and which hosts the first operational rafale squadron.
basically (from memory) french pilots praised gripen deployability and ease of maintenance but compared the gripen to a smaller mirage 2000mk2…
Little mistake from me I remember it was in fact the french pilots who said that the technological gap between the two aircrafts essentially came from the level of sensor fusion which gave the rafale a better situational awarness.
Gripen pilots also aknowledge that the gripen lacked a bit of power during high altitude dogfight and praised rafale loadout capacities.
On the other hand they outflown quite easely Mirage F1 CR.
I quite sure that I am not the only french poster which has bought or read this issue since we already had extensive conversation about that encounter on a french board http://www.air-defense.net/Forum_AD/index.php?topic=2759.6030 (many of the french posters on this french speaking board are also on keypubishing like Tmor, glitter, Kovy, c-seven and myself…)
This was discussed somwhere on this rafale thread which is 403 pages long today !!:eek:
perhaps another french poster remember the N° of the issue so that you could be able to order it via the internet ?
here is the air fan site :
arthurothis guy is ruining this thread…:mad:
How can we ban him as soon as possible ?????
😡
arthurosign,
gripen pilots admitted their lack of sensor fusion during the last rafale vs gripen confrontation in Reims. There was a report about that in the monthly airfan.
arthuroyou are right about that.
just to balance a bit: an F22 vs a F16 or mirage will be an unfair fight no matter the pilot experience, but the rafale, SH, EF or modern SU or gipen NG don’t have unfair advantages between each others…So in this case each pilot will try to take advantage of his aicrafts strenghts and indeed pilot experience does matter here.
arthurogreg,
I don’t like very much classifications…
Persistence is a performance factor in air dominance. Not the only one but still a factor…
At the end it will depend of the pilot tactics (which are often overlooked in aircraft comparisons threads).
Each pilot will try to take advantage of the his aircraft strong points.
A pilot with a performance advantage will try to end the fight as fast as possible wheras a pilot with a range advantage will try to abort and come back later to harass his oponent and wait that his oponent will fall short of fuel and that he can’t use all of his power to spare fuel.
Who win ? It is impossible to tell because there is such a variety of factors and situations that both side can hope to get a few kills…
(pilot training and experience, EW, SA, luck….to name a few)
Of course all this is only theorical, no one here can know precisely the exact balance of performance vs range between aircrafts. We can only speculate.
arthuroOriginally Posted by greg
To add my 2 cents1. The Rafale is my favorite aircraft, so I am deeply interested about it.
2. The Rafales have come 3 times (at least) in Greece for DACT with Hellenic F-16B50s. In all three case although impressive in some aspects, the french beauty FAILED to impress and gain any distinct advantage over one generation older falcons.
My humble opinion (I know i ll get a lot of bashing for that) is that the aircraft is penalized by two features.
a. it is improved for low speed handling. Obviously for carrier operations.
But current generation a2a missiles need a lot of airspeed from operating or evading aircraft.
Air combat is transforming from fighter vs fighter, into a fighter vs missile scheme.
And this does not favor aircraft like the rafale, f-18, f-35.b. its engine needs some more power. Or should I say a lot of it.
Ok I understand that the AdlA quoted that the M88-2 is adequate.
But I really dont believe a real pilot wouldn’t be happy with the most powerfull engines he can get.
This is true but you forget the range issue. A fighter like the F35 or the rafale are good compromise between sheer performance and persisyence in combat.
You can design an aircraft with the most impressive trust to weight ratio, if he can’t sustain the fight because he hasn’t enough fuel then overall performance is not that good.
Indeed BVR combat is often a cat and mouse game and aircrafts usually don’t go head on against each other…A good platform should be able so sustain sevarl aborted interceptions and have enough performance to win at the end.
As you can see I don’t say a range is decisive vs sheer performance or vice versa, I just say it must be a balanced solution.
regards.
arthurogreg,
HAF pilots have been very impressed by the rafale. I must find that article where HAF pilots are quoted and praise rafale cokpit datafusion and EW.
If another poster has tihs article can you post it ?
thanks in advance.
arthurothank you Toan !
I must say that I miss the more friendly tune of this thread before the Fonck arrival.He has some serious behaviour issues.
The way you speak (I should say shout instead) prove that you definitely lack a good education.
I don’t even bother to read all of your threads because it is so tiring to hear you shouting and insulting everyone, and besides the structure of your posts make it very hard to read.
arthuroScorpion82,
BTW is the LeBourget airshow demo of the Rafale somewhere available on youtube or so? It was at Dassaults page, with Gerard commenting his flight. Unfortunately I can’t find it there anymore.
here it is :
arthuroAbout FCS jittery :
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=rJqx9X85AAQ
indeed this is a very nice video to see the work done by close coupled canards.
the 9G turn at 6 min and 5 sec is impressive.
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