arthuroRAFALE AS A SPACE LAUNCHER !
becoming more and more versatile…:D
arthuropersonaly I find these questions of price quite boring, but that is just my opinion.
The only insight I had was from JPL in 2007 (dassault’s international support manager for military activities). He said the price was between 50 an 55 millions euros depending of the version. That is it.
What makes me happy with the rafale programme is the commitment of the french government.
We had an unexpected order of 60 airframes instead of the 40 that everyone was enticipating and we will have continuous upgrades in the months/years to come.
After all, being a one nation managed programme is certainly an asset when we see the lack of commitment of some (if not all ?) of the typhoon partners.
btw : they have put the rafale B301 prtotype on the “Place de la concorde” in Paris! (as well as many other aicrafts like the mirage 3 or the tiger helicopter) for the celebration of 100 years of french aeronautics. I will see it tomorow.
arthuroA VERY good news for the rafale programme : 60 rafales will be ordered by the french government in 2009 !
So no slow down of delivery for the moment…
arthurothis is the same article, but perhaps better traducted than above !
The first “Red Flag” of the Rafale
03/09/2008For the air force, two years after its official startup with Saint Dizier, the summer 2008 will have been the occasion to measure for the first time the Rafale with very strong part at the time of a war game of great width in Nevada, this at the end of a crossing of the American continent carried out after a crossing of the Atlantic via the Azores.
Planned since one year and half, the goal of Red Flag is to prepare the French air forces with tactical interworking. The air force takes part regularly in Red Flag since 1981 and almost all its types of fighters came there. This time, it was with the turn of the Rafale, in prelude to the participation, this autumn, of Mirage F1CT/CR in Green Flag, a exercise of CASE of nature more reduced but preparatory to the missions currently carried out in Afghanistan.
Thus, of the 07 at August 22 the last, a detachment of four Rafale of the squadron of Hunting 1/7 “Provence” of Saint-Dizier, accompanied by a supply craft C-135FR, took part during ten days in the fourth annual session of the air exercise Red Flag, the most decisive test of drive certainly, – right before the true war, gift – for a pilot of Western combat.
The detachment of 85 people, placed under the orders of colonel Philippe Poireault, chief of the device, and the lieutenant-colonel Fabrice Grandclaudon, ordering the 1/7, included/understood in all fourteen pilots, six navigators, an officer of information and 39 mechanics functioning in two teams; for the flights of day and for the night flights. Commandos of the air in charge of the safety of the planes were added to it.
Being registered following an exchange of squadron of ten days, carried out earlier on the basis of Luke in Arizona with F-16 and the personnel of the 309e fighter squadron of USAF, this first Red Flag of the French Rafale to confront the experience gained on Rafale for 2 years with planes of of the same weapons the purpose of generation had been (known as of 4th generation): F-15E of USAFE F-15K of RoKAF, F-15 and F-16 Agressor, Known-30MKI of Indian Air Force. Knowing that half of participating French were engaged on the Afghan theatre during the last months.
Four Rafale of the 1/7 (n° 317, n° 320; n° 321; n° 325) was all of the two-seaters to the F2+ standard (thus very recent) equipped with a total capacity “swing role” and whose simulated armament was composed of missiles Mica IE/EM and propelled weapons with inertial guidance AASM/GPS. The missions were supported by the SLPRM.
The Rafale B carried out during ten days with Red Flag four daily exits of 2:00 on average (1 strike diurnal + 1 night) within attack forces (Blue Air) of an about sixty to about fifty planes in general. This by diurnal temperatures higher than 45°C almost identical to those undergone to Kandahar in Afghanistan. These temperatures were besides more testing for the crews and the mechanics that for the planes, the reserve of power on the takeoff of the M88 engines having ensured a comfortable push at the beginning of the missions, the planes being systematically equipped with the three supersonic cans of 1200 liters for mimer a configuration of heavy war.
The concern first of the air force while coming in Nellis AFB with from the Rafale was initially to check the good integration of the plane and its systems in air devices dense and complex allies; with in particular participation of apparatuses of electronic war EA-6B Prowler and F-16CJ for the fight anti-radar.
For the air lieutenant-general Jean-Pierre Martin, ordering Air force of combat, which even took part in one of the last missions on Rafale B above “arranges” of Nellis (size of the Swiss territory!) during the session of August of Red Flag: ” “After one year and half of implementation, the system is in operational service and was used in operations showing that the capacities of the plane are on the level. The Rafale behaved very well and filled well its share with missions, and even easily thanks to the whole of the sensors and systems of data link (Link 16) with which it is equipped. One can say that for the first time, contrary to the preceding exercises over Jaguar or F1 Mirage or 2000, the French flew in Red Flag on a plane of comparable generation which did not have anything to envy those their American, Korean and Indian comrades”. Taking into account also the profiles of mission carried out on a theatre saturated with ground-to-air and air-to-air threats, the Rafale also extremely well showed its capacity to bore unfavourable air defenses thanks to a system of weapons very powerful to which new bomb AASM is not foreign. Indeed, if the various participants were not particularly struck by the capacity “swing role” of the Rafale – Known-30MKI, the F-15E Strike Eagle and F-15K Slam Eagle have it already – it is unquestionably the precision of the sensors of the Rafale and its air-to-ground armament “stand-off” which impressed the gallery. ” On the Rafale the fusion of the sensors is an extraordinary concept which is very successful. It forever have divergences of tracks between the various sensors ” added the commander of the 1/7 there. The Rafale was present in all the missions of principal interest in particular at least two missions like “mission of ordering”. During missions of “coil escort” or “organic escort”, Rafale/F2+ made it possible to introduce the complete panel of the air capacities of the new plane.
Questioned on the state of the logistics of the Rafale, the Grandclaudon lt-collar pointed out that the logistics of its squadron functioning in data-processing network with the BA113 of Saint-Dizier (thanks to the Arpagon system who allows to send by satellite the technical data of each plane after each flight). allowed, throughout Red Flag to have a traceability improved on the installed spare parts. From now on primarily curative and either preventive, it acts-there of a maintenance in tended flow: one changes only what is necessary, which is more economic and authorizes lighter logistic projections.
It remains that the French pilots be strong pending the pods of Damocles designation which should be delivered the next year, if all is well, and that much would wish to be able to have one day a sight of helmet as the Americans and the Indians have some, a device initially envisaged on Rafale but abandoned for reasons of economy. Connection 16 is very appreciated, just as Spectra which proves to be a system very rich in capacities of detection complementary to radar RBE2. The OSF as for him, achieves the unanimity of the pilots on his great utility in aerial combat. “It is a sensor which one will not be able to do any more from now on” even pointed out a captain “so much it gives us a discrete advantage on the adversary”.
The Americans have, them, at the time of the “farmhouses debriefs”, rented the precision of the AASM. Each Rafale can today treat six objectives of a blow on an extended surface, each bomb of 250 kg having coordinates and a clean ballistics. More still, via Connection 16, a Rafale can exchange in flight its shot-firing patterns with a plane spatially placed better. Each plane having in addition recorded the totality of the possible scenarios beforehand. Thus if a plane does not achieve its goal another can take its continuation and conclude the mission envisaged. Here is a new weapon which is likely to give to the Rafale a real asset on the international scene.
A second squadron of Rafale, the squadron of Bombardment 1/91 “Gascogne”, should be operational in Saint-Dizier from here the nearest end of the year. He will in the long term have to implement cruise missiles at nuclear load ASMPA with his Rafale F3 within the framework of dissuasion and that since 2010.
arthuroThis is an automatic translation of a french article which takes stock of the last rafale deployement in red flag.
I underlined the parts I thought to be the most interesting.
For the AdlA, two years after its official startup with Saint Dizier, the summer 2008 was the occasion to measure for the first time the Rafale in a war game in Nevada, this after crossing the American continent realized after a crossing The Atlantic via the Azores.
Planned since one year and half, the goal of Red Flag is to prepare the French air forces with tactical interworking. The AdA takes part regularly in Red Flag since 1981 and almost all its types of fighters came there. This time, it was with the turn of the Rafale, in prelude to the participation, this autumn, of Mirage F1CT/CR in Green Flag, a CAS exercise smaller but preparatory to the missions currently carried out in Afghanistan.
Thus, of the 07 at August 22 the last, a detachment of four Rafale of l’ squadron 1/7 “Provence” of Saint-Dizier, accompanied by a supply craft C-135FR, took part during ten days in the fourth annual session of Red Flag the certainly most decisive, – right before the true war, gift – for a pilot of Western combat.
The detachment of 85 people, placed under the orders of colonel Philippe Poireault, chief of the device, and the lieutenant-colonel Fabrice Grandclaudon, commanding the 1/7, included/ in all fourteen pilots, six navigators, an officer of information and 39 mechanics functioning in two teams; for the flights of day and for the night flights. S’ commandos of l’ added to it; air in charge of the safety of the planes.
coming after an d’ exchange of ten days, carried out earlier on the basis of Luke in lArizona with F-16 and the personnel of the 309e fighter squadron. The purpose of this first Red Flag of the French Rafale had been to confront the experience gained on Rafale for 2 years with planes of of the same weapons generation (known as of 4th generation): F-15E of l’ USAFE F-15K of RoKAF, F-15 and F-16 Agressor, Known-30MKI l’ Indian Air Force. half of participating French pilots were engaged on the Afghan theatre during the last months.
Four Rafale of the 1/7 (n° 317, n° 320; n° 321; n° 325) was all of the two-seaters to the F2+ standard (thus very recent) which have a total swing role capacity and the use simulated armament was composed of missiles Mica IE/EM and propelled weapons with inertial guidance AASM/GPS. The missions were supported by the SLPRM.
The Rafale B carried out during ten days with Red Flag four daily exits of 2:00 on average (1 strike diurnal + 1 night) within devices d’ (Blue Air) d’ attacks; an about sixty to around fifty d’ planes in general. This by diurnal temperatures higher than 45°C almost identical to those undergone to Kandahar in Afghanistan. These temperatures were d’ elsewhere more demanding for the crews than the mechanics that for the planes, the reserve of power on the takeoff with the M88 engines having ensured a comfortable push at the beginning of the missions, the planes being systematically equipped with the three supersonic cans of 1200 liters for mimer a configuration of heavy war.
The concern first of l’ army of l’ air while coming in Nellis AFB with from the Rafale was to check the good integration of the plane and its systems in air devices dense and complex allies; with in particular d’ participation; apparatuses of electronic war EA-6B Prowler and F-16CJ for the anti-radar fight. For the air lieutenant-general Jean-Pierre Martin, ordering Air force of combat, which even took part in one of the last missions on Rafale B above the ” range” of Nellis (of the size of the Swiss territory!) during the session d’ August of Red Flag: ” “After one year and half of implementation, the system is in operational service and was used in operations showing that the capacities of the plane are on the level. The Rafale s’ is very well comprised and filled its share well with missions, and even easily thanks to l’ together sensors and systems of data link (Link 16) with which it is equipped. One can say that for the first time, contrary to the preceding exercises over Jaguar or F1 Mirage or 2000, the French flew in Red Flag on a plane of comparable generation which n’ had nothing to envy those their American, Korean and Indian comrades “. Taking into account also the mission profiles carried out on a theatre saturated with ground-to-air and air-to-air threats, the Rafale also showed extremely well its capacity to cope with heavy air defenses thanks to a very powerful weapon system to which the new AASM bomb is not foreign. Indeed, if the various participants were not particularly struck by the Rafale swing role capacity – In fact the Su-30MKI, the F-15E Strike Eagle and the F-15K Slam Eagle have already this capability – It is unquestionably the precision of the Rafale’s sensors and its “stand-off” air-to-ground armament who impressed the gallery. «On the Rafale the fusion of the sensors is an extraordinary concept which is very successful. There have been no divergences of tracks between different sensors” the commander of the 1/7 added. The Rafale was present in all the missions of principal interest in particular at least two missions like “mission of ordering”. During missions of “coil escort” or “organic escort ” , Rafale/F2+ made it possible to introduce the complete panel of the air capacities of the new plane.
Questioned on the state of the logistics of the Rafale, the Grandclaudon lt-collar pointed out that the logistics of its squadron functioning in data-processing network with the BA113 of Saint-Dizier (thanks to the Arpagon system who allows to send by satellite the technical data of each plane after each flight). allowed, throughout Red Flag to have a traceability improved on the installed spare parts. From now on primarily curative and either preventive, it s’ d’ acts-there; a maintenance in tended flow: one changes only what is necessary, which is more economic and authorizes lighter logistic projections.
It remains that the French pilots are strongly waiting the Damocles designation pods which should be delivered next year, if all is going well, and they would like to be able to wear helmet sight like the Americans and the Indians, a device initially envisaged on Rafale but abandoned for economy reasons.
Connection 16 is much appreciated, just as Spectra which prove to be a very rich system in terms of detection’s capacities complementary to RBE2 radar .The OSF made the pilots unanimity which has a great utility in aerial combat. “this is a sensor we can’t imagine working without it any more” even pointed out a captain ” such an amount of it gives us a discrete advantage on our adversary”.
The Americans have, during the ” mass debriefs” praised the precision of the AASM. Each Rafale can today treast six objectives on an extended surface, each bomb of 250 kg having coordinates and its own ballistics. Besides via Connection 16, a Rafale can exchange in flight its shot-firing patterns with a plane better spatially placed. Each plane have in addition recorded the totality of the possible scenarios. Thus if a plane does not achieve its goal another can take its continuation and conclude the mission envisaged. Here is a new weapon which is likely to give to the Rafale a real asset on the international scene.
A second squadron of Rafale, l’ squadron of Bombardment 1/91 “Gascogne”, should be operational in Saint-Dizier from here the end of l’ next year. He will in the long term have to implement cruise missiles at nuclear load ASMPA with his Rafale F3 within the framework of dissuasion and that since 2010.
arthurothis is a nice rafale video, some parts of it are new and weren’t shown before.
http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/le%2Brafale/video/x58wia_le-rafale_sport
arthuroabout rafale power…From a post on military photos by a Nellis spotter (rapier 55) :
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=137433&page=8
Xav, thanks for posting the video (2nd). I think I also put it up in the Pic/Video Section, though I’m not sure. I’ve uploaded so many videos lately I’ve lost track. Also, they’re all shot in HD, just click the link.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arthuro
(the speaker/journalist also says that the american pilots were impressed by rafale power by the way…)I have to agree with this assessment. After watching a number of aircraft launch from Red Flag I was impressed with the power the Rafale exhibited on takeoff. The high pitch and continuous climb was unbelievable. I won’t quote anybody but in many aspects people were more amazed by the Rafale’s capabilities than with the Eurofighters.
arthuroradio communications are not all actual !:D
arthuroA NEW RAFALE VS F18 DOGFIGHT VIDEO (with beautiful cokpit/HUD footage and radio comunication)
The nice part of the video beginns at 3 minutes
enjoy!
arthuroa new piece of news coming from the french daily “le figaro” (august 6, 2008 page 4 from Renaud Girard)
It is dealing with the last rafale’s deployement with the US (air force and navy). At a point of the article he quotes a top officer the “général de division aérienne Jean Luc Delon”
he states “confronted to the F18E superhornet, the most sophisticated aircraft from the US navy, our Rafale marine performed extremely well”
unfortunately we don’t have any precisions about the type of engagement etc…
arthuroLoke,
. The results from such exercises tell hardly anything about the real capabilities of the fighters…
Quite independent of the fact that Rafale scored 6-2 against some block 25 F16 in an exercersise in which we know no details whatsoever I think we can safely say that the Rafale is a very capable 4.gen fighter.
Conversely to you I find this exercise interesting, because the rules of engagement are clear : 1 vs 1 in a WVR dogfight. It might be not representative of modern air warfare or give a comprehensive picture of rafale capabilities, but this exercise is a nice benchmark of airframe/engine performance in a demanding situation like a dogfight.
The fact that a rafale is able to score a 3 to 1 ratio against a f16 who was/(still is) a benchmark for dogfighting is very encouraging.
Indeed, airframe performance is not the arena where there is the most dramatic improvements between 3th and 4th/5th gen aircrafts… The laws of aerodynamics are still the same and we are reaching a limit in terms of airframe/engine performance. Now it is place for optimization an incremental improvements waiting for breakthrough in technologies. So an f16 or a mig 29, even of the first generation are still serious oponents in a WVR gun dogfight especially in the hands of an experimented pilots like those of the USAF who were confronted the rafale. (they were certainly not beginners)
plus the USAF’s pilot comments attests the rafale supremacy in the dogfight arena when he says that the rafale is a much more agressive aircraft than the f16. (the speaker/journalist also says that the american pilots were impressed by rafale power by the way…)
to sum up, this exercise doesn’t give the whole picture of the rafale capabilities but stresses the quality of the design and airframe/engine performance against one of the benchmark of dogfighters. I think it is a nice piece of information…
arthuroLoke,
this exercise was pure WVR dogfights with the use of guns only. Radar performance is irelevant in this case.
a 3 to 1 ratio here, is a very good performance since jet fighters tend to reach the “asymptote” in trems of aerodynamic performance since the 80’s.
a F16 in a clean configuration is a serious oponent for any 4th gen fighter in a dogfight. So a 3 to 1 ratio for the rafale in gun a gunfight is quite an achievement.
arthuroah… and the french pilots tell at the beginning that the USAF is curious about the rafale capabilities, and they think that they will astonish their american counterparts. It is also an exercise to learn how to work together. (afghanistan…)
arthurothe american pilot says that the rafale has some unique capabilities and it is a much more agressive dogfighter than the f16 but in the end it is the pilot’s experience which is decisive in this type of engagement.
arthuroa rafale vs F16 ( 1 vs 1 WVR gun dogfight) in the united state TV report :
http://videos.tf1.fr/video/news/0,,3931177,00-contre-rafale-vrai-faux-combat-.html
the result : 6 f16 shot down for 2 rafale during the first day.
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