arthuroHere is a few pictures From the paris airshow 2005 ( I already posted pics from the 2007 edition in the rafale number 2 thread which I removed du to lack of dowload hiring capacity):
I was lucky to get a pass for the professional days (in 2005 and 2007) so I could manage to have direct access to the aircrafts. The US air force was nice to let us in and have a sit in the F16 and F15E ! I posted pictures where I don’t show my and a friend faces so I had to select these pics:
arthuro1) If you think Dassault has more experience than BAE, EADS and Alenia put together then imo you’re mad.
Experience is not a thing which is equal to the summ of the parts. Rob’s rational is over simplistic. This is the basics of human organization and business organization academics. Often a small team of motivated and experienced people (Dassault has a very low turnover) can achieve better results tan a complex to manage multinational structure.
Dassault compared to other firms is an extremely small one where every body know each other (my father worked 12 years for them and I have contacts with two people in the top management since the last paris airshow), yet they achieve to build one of the best combat aircraft on the market with much less money than the EF consortium.
here is an automatic translation of an extract of a recent challenge magazine issue.
Less expensive than l’ Eurofighter
“The Rafale program costs less to France than a participation in l’ would not have cost him; Eurofighter”, however continues to proclaim Charles Edelstenne, the chairman from Dassault Aviation. For a budget of 26 billion d’ euros, the Germans will receive only 180 Eurofighter, points out one in the French manufacturer, while the British will have 232 per 33 billion d’ of them; euros. C’ is into 1985 that France s’ is disunited Europeans, deciding to only continue. Hostile with this expensive project, Andre Giraud, the Minister for Defense, n’ win will not have, but it obtains industrialists qu’ they assume 25% of the development. What makes say to Dassault that the paid price by the taxpayer n’ is not 35 billion d’ euros but of 28 billion, if l’ one removes the 2 billion taken charges some by the industrialists… and the VAT, which, “paid by defense, returns in the drawers of Bercy, therefore with l’ State”! According to this calculation, the budgetary cost d’ a plane s’ raise to 95,2 d’ million; euros (and not 119 million), its price of series being of 50 d’ million; euros.
4) I’m glad France isn’t in Eurofighter. With a bit of luck we can kill off Dassault in the military export market.
Wow, this is a mark of bitterness. As an air enthousiast I can’t whish something like that to any aircrafts. But you are probably a nationalist…
arthuroit is time for some pics!
arthuroThis is an automatic translation of an extract of an article from Challenges.fr, 27/06/08
Second argument of the manufacturer: conceived to carry out all the types of air missions – monitoring, interception, attack on the ground… -, the Rafale must replace six or seven models such as Crusader Marine, the Super-Standard, the Jaguar, or the Mirage F1 and Mirage 2000. With the key, economies d’ maintenance and of training of the pilots, and a reduced fl otte of number: in 2021, the 294 Rafale in service will have replaced the 680 planes which constituted the French fleet at the time of the launching of the program – but c’ was before the fall of the Berlin Wall. Result of this reformating, a noticeable decrease of the number of air bases. Is it possible to still reduce the aerofoil? A legitimate interrogation, to which the industrialists oppose the reality of their weak workload. Because before even any shift of program, the rate/rhythm of production of the Rafale is limited to 1,16 apparatus per month! Difficult to go down low. At Dassault Aviation, the key word is “flexibility”. With l’ machine d’ assembly of Mérignac (the Gironde), the workmen work indifferently on the chain of the Rafale as on that of Falcon, the jets d’ businesses with growing success. An organization thought so well qu’ it makes say to a leader placed high: “The Rafale program was conceived to be profitable without export.” Under cover d’ anonymity, it evaluates from 10 to 12% the margins of the branch defense, whereas that of the planes d’ businesses would not exceed the 7%, because d’ a very keen competition! As for the 1.500 subcontractors and partners, exclusively French, of which Thalès (electronics, 25% of the value of l’ plane) and Snecma (driving, 20% of the total price), the Rafale does not represent qu’ a small portion of their activity. Fortunately for them. “The production paces of the M88 engine are summarized to about thirty per annum, explains Xavier Sahut d’ Izarn, managing director of division military engines. We produce each week the same number of words CFM56 intended for l’ civil aviation!” Without increase in capacity, the production could be multiplied by two or three.
I think hyperion made interesting comments which I mostly agree with exept I would balance the risk of lesser programme support. Strange as it may seems, the rafale development has been much more dynamic than the Typhoon programme in terms of weapon integrations, and improved hardware.
The future rafale NG (or F3+:D) will get a new AESA radar, new engines, new OSF, improved EW, meteor … And this new rafale is funded and is already ordered. The last 8 rafale of the F3 batch will be at this standart and an order of 40 or 60 rafale F3+ is awaited by the end of the year.
PS: the two first retrofited rafale F3 (B307 and M11) participated to the Nato OCEAN TIGER exercise. The retrofit lasted 8 weeks/First rafale F3 squadron is to be operational at the end of the summer.
arthuro2 news :
The “Livre Blanc de la Défense” is now complete. In 2020, France shoud have 300 combat aircraft, including the MN’s aicraft.
This makes :
60 Rafale M
60 Mirage 2000D (upgraded)
180 Rafale C/B.
Some sources conclude that the Rafale program will be “shortened”, but according to Dassault, it’s only a matter of slowing down the deliveries, again. Thus, the target number of 294 Rafale isn’t questionned so far, though the last Rafales won’t be delivered before 2020 (maybe later to replace the aging M2000D).
That’s my understanding of the situation, other French may correct it.http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/20…des-rafale.php
Claude Guéant, Secretary-General of l’Elyzée, declared that France had “serious hopes” to sell around 100 Rafale.
From what I previously read before the advent of the “livre blanc”, the last rafale delivery should have happen in 2023…It seems that the “livre blanc” won’t (almost) affect the delivery rate :confused:
Other thing which I still find unclear is the number of rafale nuclear aircrafts. Sarkozy said at Cherbourg during “Le terrible” SSBN unveiling, that only 40 aircrafts will be affected to the Nuke role instead of 60. Will the cut of 20 rafale still be ordered and affected to conventional operations? According to Dassault yes, but I am still skeptical…
arthuroa nice CNN TV report about the last rafale deployement on the USS Harry trumman.
arthuroA greek poster from another board gave a report from the rafale exercise in Greece opposed to F16 block 52.
And an article on EA&A (Hellenic Defense & Security) claims the RAFALEs actually performed very well.
To quote the article:
“According to the French aviators, the French fighter dominated the air combat. Initially it was reported that in the first missions the capabilities of the MICA missiles were underestimated by the oppossing team (meaning the Greek aviators flying F16’s). Though both sides managed to perform succesful “hits” to their opponent”.
“…Greek aviators were characterized by their French counterparts as very vicious in the air…”Availability during the 18 sorties for the RAFALE was in the range of 90%.
Greek aviators were impressed with the situation awareness of the French fighters, as well as the SPECTRA and it’s use along with operationla tactics in the French fighter doctrine of operation.
regards.
arthurofunny thing,
I am currently studying at Solvay Business school in Bruxelles (master of finance), And one of our teacher (corporate governance) is a lawyer which is working/worked for BAe during in relation with the Saudi story. (still unclear how close, he remains quite elusive). He made no mystery that bribering is a common practice in that kind of deal, in fact it is the norm. Funnily that doesn’t shock him and he considers these kind of commissions “part of the businness”!!
this guy also worked for gasprom and other sensitive stuff !
arthuroJackonicko,
I think it is not the first time you are asking this question and we have already answered.
The next batch order is expected at the end of this year or at the begining of year 2009.
this batch should be composed of 60 rafales but rumors tell that it could be only 40. ( the 8 squadron of 20 aircrafts tend to say it will be 40 and not 60)
There will be no production gap according to Air&Cosmos, and futher upgrades are planned including a new standart for 2018 for the fifth batch ( technology&armement, Airpower issue, Charles edelstenne interview)
I think that the 294 goal is less and less likely, but hopefully upgrades are coming fast and and new ones are under consideration and rafale programme still seems to be a healthy programme despite the lack of export.
I mean they could have done like the mirage 2000 rdi which hasn’t got any upgrade since its introduction in service and which its operational value is questionable…
Here we have the F3 comming this summer and the retrofit of other rafales, the AESA, new engines, new osf funded and ordered (for the last rafales of the F3 batch), new armements…HMD, DVI, satellite transmission under consideration…
plus there is the will and lot of reactivity of the AdA to add new capacities when there is an operational requirement (like rockets or the LgB crash programme)
arthuroJackonicko,
I think it is not the first time you are asking this question and we have already answered.
The next batch order is expected at the end of this year or at the begining of year 2009.
this batch should be composed of 60 rafales but rumors tell that it could be only 40. ( the 8 squadron of 20 aircrafts tend to say it will be 40 and not 60)
There will be no production gap according to Air&Cosmos, and futher upgrades are planned including a new standart for 2018 for the fifth batch ( technology&armement, Airpower issue, Charles edelstenne interview)
I think that the 294 goal is less and less likely, but hopefully upgrades are coming fast and and new ones are under consideration and rafale programme still seems to be a healthy programme despite the lack of export.
I mean they could have done like the mirage 2000 rdi which hasn’t got any upgrade since its introduction in service and which its operational value is questionable…
Here we have the F3 comming this summer and the retrofit of other rafales, the AESA, new engines, new osf funded and ordered (for the last rafales of the F3 batch), new armements…HMD, DVI, satellite transmission under consideration…
plus there is the will and lot of reactivity of the AdA to add new capacities when there is an operational requirement (like rockets or the LgB crash programme)
arthurohttp://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=etlYWWbAxeA
amazing… the cokpit look very realistic! (exept the HMD) the throttle at 1’02 is the same as the real one. at 1’11 the cokpit layout is very well reproduced!
arthuroI agree but it is said that the mirage 2000D as still a lot of airframe potential and they plan to retire it in 2025…
so the idea is to have a brand new cokpit, a new radar ,perhaps RBE2 AESA or the RDY-3 (both solutions under consideration) and most of the rafale’s weapons.
the defence programme review as two goals : save money in a difficult budget situation and better adapt the armed forces to the war against terror.
So less artillery, land bases in france, no PA2, less Fremms, less rafales (240 instead of 294) etc etc….
But the intelligence budget will incresase with several new military sattelites(a new spatial command will be created belonging to the AdA), SF budget will increase and more money for projection asset like the A400M and NH90….
in fact the military budget should remain the same+ the inflation in the next years.
arthuroI don’t know if every one is aware but a defence programme review is awaited soon in france.
There are some persistent rumors about it which tell that instead of 294 rafale the french armed forces may only recieve 240 on them.
the problem is it might be less rafale M ( for most of the cut) because the probable scenario (still a rumor though…) is no PA2 so less rafale, less barracudas, less fremms…
so by scrapping one asset you can save a lot of money…
personnaly I don’t care about 240 instead of 294, but I find it sad to scrap the PA2 and some rafale M. 🙁 (+ other assets of course)
in another hand more money should be available to make the necessary modernizations of the aircraft during its operational life which is a good thing.
+ the AdA is thinking about making a deep modernization of the mirage 2000D.
But as a consequence the next order should be for 40 airframes instead of 60.
In the defence review A400M and NH90 are considered as urgent programmes and the budget for militatry sattelites should have a big increase.
final results should be known this spring…
arthuroThat’s what I call a good news for the rafale programme!
I wonder when we will see laser variants as well as a family of bombs of 125, 250 and 1000kg? Its is not ordered yet but I think it is a highly probable scenario knowing theese bombs were showed at SAGEM static display latest june + moussez talking about it.
a 125 kg bomb with the current booster should have a huge range!
arthuro“Our weapons and tactics were limited by Red Force rules, and in an exercise like this the Red Force is always supposed to die, but even without our AMRAAMs and data links we got eight or 10 kills, including a Typhoon. Often we had no AWACS or radar support of any kind, just our regular onboard sensors – but flying like that, ‘free hunting’, we got three kills in one afternoon. It was a pretty good experience for our first time out.”
,
yes it seems it was WVR you are right.
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