oh! I forgot two gorgeous pics in black and white!

the saw tooth for RCS reduction a very visible on theese pics.

with a comprehensive load :

sorry 2 vs 4 F15 of course!

I think exactly the opposite plane man!:D

little difference in AtA between the two types but a significant gap in the AtG arena in favor of the rafale.

concerning manoevrability both should be very close. I would give an edge on supersonic regime for the typhoon, but an edge for the rafale at slow speed. (it is a navalized aircraft with slower approach speeds) In transonic regime it should be quite even. In fact both are 9G fighters and the diffrence should be in pilots ability to withstand such accelerations.

In the BVR arena both aircraft rely on different tactics, rafale using to a greater extent passive indentification. Radar range is irrelevant since it tells the position of your aircraft and can gives a firing opportunity to your oponent. Since mica and aim 120 are offer roughly the same performances the outcome should depend on tactics, situation awarness and the way you can vectorise your missile. theese parameters are interdependent.

Both can SC with an edge for the typhoon on this arena. But in the real world SC is of very little utility. Even F22 pilots tell that they don’t need it to win an AtA engagements. In fact they try to remain airborn as long as possible enjoying a unique situation awarness. So they have the time to see the threat coming and when they decide to engage, they light the burners to accelerate quickly and finish the job.
SC was good during cold war scenario when you needed to scramble against enemmy fighters in a defensive stance. And this kind of performance as its cost. You loose combat persistence or load out capabilities. There is a lot of hype about it but it has little operational use.
Dassault did advertise its SC ability in fox three.

There is no signinficant gap between the Rafale AtoG compared to the typhoon. Only a slight margin in range, and very small payload difference. But when fully both fully loaded, it would surprise me if the Rafale had greater range. Can the rafale carry six 1000lb LG bombs, a large fuel tank, 4 MRAAM and 2 SRAAM and then pull 9g’s?, out manouverng most aircraft in the sky with tht load

If there is I would like to know, I honestly would like to learn why people rate the Rafale greater AtoG

hum, the configuration you are mentioning is a joke, since “the large drop tank” you are mentioning is in fact a small 1000 liters tank vs 2000l (the double!!) for the rafale, and furthemore in the real life there is no tank because there is the LDP on this station. So considering the drag and the two powerful EJ200 the range should be very bad!

with six LGB the rafale can carry 3*2000=6000 liters (external) vs 0 external for the typhoon!!
In fact this configuration was for the show and it has no operational value.
It is also very compeling with storm shadows 6000 liters vs 1000 liters!! (it is six time more!!)

but diffrences don’t stop with loadout configurations…

The RBE2 can work simultaneously in ATG and ATA which is impossible for the mechanical CAPTOR. Doing so greatly increase rafale survivability in AtG missions, since you can make ground following (you are much more difficult to detect) and engaging air threat in the same time. This ability gives you a tactical edge.
In the same situation the typhoon would almost automatically abort the mission.

plus manoevring at 9 with a full AtG load is a lie.

hum, you shouldn’t believe only what you want to hear plane man!
your source is of no value. It was written by…J.L and was unsigned when it was published lol! It reminds me this laughable rumor of the typhoon vs the F22. And you conveniently didn’t take my first post for you into account…

Plus beating the F15 doesn’t mean it is more impressive knowing the rafale M F1 did the same during red shark exercise in one of its first deployment.

Rafale can SC with 1*1250liter tank and four micas according to MN pilots.
There is no significant gap between the rafale and the typhoon in the AtoA arena. The superiority in that role remained to be demonstrated between the two types.
Of course you are not speaking about AtG…

you are right Tmor!

you know, these are the only two modern fighters (typhoon and F22) which I find misfit to actual operational context.:o They are awsome to watch, they are both great technological achievements but were designed with an obvious cold war mindset limiting their AtG potential and so their operational value.

a SH which is often dismissed, is less sexy but far more usefull in actual wars. The F35 won’t rely on first class kinematics but it will become the best asset available (very probably).
SH, F15E, rafale and F35 are better compromise I think. I doubt that in competitions pure performances weight that much. Most, if not all aircrafts on the market offer sufficient kinematics. Added value is in the operational value of the aircraft.

So the debate between the typhoon and the F22 is not very useful. Apart the ego contest which can be funny sometimes!:D

to Plane man,

There are more reliable sources which claim the exact opposite. I mean your source come from an un-named article written by someone we all know on this forum (with obvious pro typhoon positions) versus an article published in the international herald tribune which quotes a rafale pilot officer who has its credibility at stake. What do you choose??

Note that the journalist, which is not french, can interview other high profile analyst or businessman which ad credibility to the article.

Personaly I don’t see colonel Moussez lying. Perhaps he is a little bit “enthousiast” but this is still a reliable source I think, not perfect, but still the most reliable on that competition for sure…

Rafale, the French fighter, scrambles for export orders
By Christina Mackenzie
International Herald Tribune

Published: July 16, 2006 Paris

Riddle: Which combat aircraft outperforms its competitors in dogfights, is frequently classed first on technical merit in international tenders, is capable of covering a broad spectrum of air missions and is competitively priced, but has yet to win a single export order from a foreign air force? Answer: the Rafale, the French fighter developed and manufactured by Dassault Aviation.

In development since the mid-1980s and in French naval carrier-based service since 2004, Rafale is a so-called fourth-generation fighter, a sophisticated multirole jet with advanced avionics and weapons systems, but less able to avoid radar detection than “fifth generation” stealth fighters like the Lockheed-Martin F-22 Raptor or the U.S.-European F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

Competitors include the U.S.-made F- 15 Eagle, in service in various versions since the 1970s, the F-16 Fighting Falcon and F-18E/F Super Hornet, the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Swedish-built JAS-39 Gripen, marketed in collaboration with BAE Systems of Britain.

Dassault and the French Ministry of Defense hope that exports may now take off after Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin declared operational a first French air force squadron of 20 Rafales on June 27.

“It’s almost impossible to sell a combat aircraft not operational in its own air force,” Gérard David, head of communications for Dassault said during an interview by telephone. “The doors are now open to Rafale’s export career.”
Within the French military, the Rafale eventually would replace existing air force and naval fighters and fighter- bombers, including the Mirage IV, F1 and 2000; the Jaguar; Crusader; Etendard IV and Super-Etendard.

“This is going to reduce our operating costs tremendously through rationalization of maintenance,” said General Patrick Dufour, director of the Rafale program at the Délégation Générale de l’Armement, France’s defense procurement agency.

Colonel François Moussez, a pilot who has flown 150 hours on the Rafale, said that two could do the work of six existing air superiority/defense and air-to-surface attack jets. “With the Rafale,” he said, “we can do simultaneous multimission management: air-to-air, air-to- ground, reconnaissance at the same time.”

Moussez said that in dogfight exercises, the Rafale had outflown F-15, F-16 and F-18 opponents, and in technical and performance evaluations “we have systematically won against the F-15 and the Eurofighter Typhoon.”
Yet it lost to the F-15 in competitions to sell to South Korea and Singapore. Moussez said it was outflanked in the former case on political grounds and in the latter case on costs, noting that the dollar had depreciated 30 percent over the period of the Singapore competition.

In competitions to sell combat aircraft, “the principal criterion is political. It has little to do with aircraft performance,” Moussez said.

Richard Aboulafia, an aerospace analyst with Teal Group in Fairfax, Virginia, also says that politics play a major role in fighter procurement. “Aggressive U.S. foreign policy” was a primary cause of export wins by U.S. military jets, he said during an interview by telephone.

Bob Kemp, director of sales for the Gripen, was not so sure. “There is no doubt a political factor,” he said during an interview. But “the first thing is, the aircraft must be able to do the job, and the second is financial.”
The Gripen, in operation with the Swedish Air Force since 1997, has been sold or leased to three countries and is quietly adding more orders, partly because it is “half the price of our competitors,” Kemp said.

Pricing combat aircraft is notoriously complex, with deals often involving industrial offsets and seldom reflecting full aircraft development costs. While Dufour put the average cost of a Rafale at €50 million, or $64 million, and the Typhoon – a collaboration grouping Italy, Germany, Spain and Britain – at about £65 million, or $120 million, Kemp said both aircraft had been offered to Singapore and South Korea at about $95 million each, compared with a basic price tag of $45 million to $50 million for the Gripen.

Combat aircraft technology “costs what it weighs,” Kemp said. “The Typhoon is basically twice the weight of the Gripen – and costs twice as much.”
The Typhoon, although lacking air-to- ground capacity in its current version, already has one export customer. Austria signed for 18 aircraft in August 2003 and Britain has signed a preliminary agreement with Saudi Arabia to supply at least 24 Typhoons from the British production run of 89 aircraft, although no final deal has been sealed.

Meanwhile Gripen has sold 28 aircraft to South Africa, the first of which left Sweden by ship in early July for the Overburg test flight center near Cape Town. Hungary has signed a lease and purchase agreement with Sweden for 14 aircraft, of which the first five were handed over in March. And the Czech Republic has leased 14 aircraft, all of which have been delivered. Norway and Denmark have also requested information on the Gripen from Saab, its manufacturer.

French procurement officials, comparing the sales prospects of the Gripen and Rafale, said the Gripen was designed for a different type of mission. The Rafale, a twin-engine aircraft with a maximum takeoff weight of 24.5 tons, can carry 9.5 tons of weapons slung under its wings, while the single-engine Gripen, with a maximum takeoff weight of 14 tons, carries only 5 tons of weapons.

Kemp agrees. Buyers of the heavier fighters “pay for longer range and heavier weapons loads,” he said, fitting them for a strategic defense role that some air forces may find less relevant than it was at the height of the cold war.

Still, by 2030, many countries will need to renew their combat aircraft fleets including some, like India and Japan, that may face significant strategic challenges. Saudi Arabia may finalize its Typhoon deal at the Farnborough Airshow, and analysts say other likely customers in the near future include Morocco and Brazil.

Excluding the United States, Russia and China, the open export market is estimated by analysts at around 3,000 aircraft. France traditionally holds between 10 percent to 15 percent of this market. Based on political preferences and past performance, France could hope to export about 300 Rafales, analysts say.

about the rafale F1 and typhoon confrontation there was an article about it on mer&marine.net I think.

A MN pilot said “there isn’t many thing we can envy to the others”. The least we could say is that this declaration is not very clear, but show it is a close call I would think. But he was talking of all the confrontations against the typhoon but also other types from NATO inventory.

I lost the link to this article, although I have already posted it on this forum a while ago. Perhaps a french poster have that link?