scorpion82: if you want to find plenty of rafale photos I advise you to search here. It is a forum of french spotters.

http://www.foxalpha.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8692&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

you can find other rafale Mf2 pics at the end of this thread.

scorpion:

I don’t find any pictures of rafale f2 on CdG. But I have these to wait:

Btw..does any body here know whether Mica has any operational kill?

Not any.

Air superiority is something very rare for the moment! It is gained immediately or very quickly…airfields, and all commanding infrastructures are soft targets. (due to cruise missiles, real timeknowledge of the battlefield situation, spy sattelites…)
So in the first hours of a conflict the goal is to suppressed the ability of your ennemy to understand what is going on, and then master the information processes.
So without the comprehensive supporting environment a modern fighter has no chance to survive for a very long time.

That is why Air supeririority is considered nowadays as defensive rather than offensive in modern global strategy.

I don’t think the typhoon is in another class in terms of kinematics, better, yes but in a other class is exagerated.
Plus you forget what high off bore sight missile+new helmet bring into the fight. It is an equilizer.

this is a quote of this forum I saved on my hard disk:

Nowadays close range fight is too lethal to get sucked into. Even a MiG-21 can kill a Typhoon if it is armed with high-off-boresight missiles AND if – a BIG if – it survives the Typhoon’s BVR attack in the first place. Missiles such as Python 4/5, ASRAAM, R-73 and AIM-9X are an equalizer in close range fight.

http://www.janes.com/defence/air_fo…10529_1_n.shtml

“There are lessons to be learned from this engagement and other tests which have shown similar results. One is that modern HMDs and SRAAMs are essential. A second lesson is that WVR combat is extremely dangerous and will become more so. “We’ll see less dogfighting once we get the ability to engage targets 90º off the nose,” says Shaw. “Somebody’s going to get a shot, and if the missile is lethal you’re going to get hit.” Even the recent history of engagements suggests that the ‘furball’ of fighter combat, with multiple engagements spread across miles of sky, is on its way out. “We don’t see a history of high-g maneuvering in recent engagements,” says one industry analyst. “It’s fun to practice but unwise to pursue.”

A third lesson is that WVR is an equalizer. “An F-5 or a MiG-21 with a high-off-boresight missile and HMD is as capable in a 1-v-1 as an F-22,” comments a former navy fighter pilot, now a civilian program manager. “In visual combat, everybody dies at the same rate,” says RAND’s Lambeth. Indeed, he says that a larger fighter like the F-22 may be at a disadvantage. In the early 1980s force-on-force exercises at the navy’s Top Gun fighter school, F-14s were routinely seen and shot down by smaller F-5s flown by the navy’s Aggressor units. An F-22 which slows down to enter a WVR combat also gives up the advantage of supersonic maneuverability

you see, even a mig21 can be as capable as a F22!

And rafale in falklands should grant absolute superiority without a doubt.
Singapore choosed the F15…older than rafale and typhoon…If it was so vital for them to have absolute air superiority why didn’t they waited for typhoon. The 3 contender are all formidable air superiority machine able to face any adversary efficiently. (F15 is mach 2,5 very nice kinematics for a BVR shot in your logic)

But exept that you overstate a little typhoon AtoA superiority (in the same league as rafale, probably a little bit better but nothing decisive) I agree with most of what you said.

I have never said that. too close to call, too many factors…I don’t dare to say it is better.

I honestly don’t understand why there is such enthusiasm about BVR when typhoon or rafale will probably never shoot a single BVR missile in an actual combat senario in their operational life and if they do, it will certainly be against an outdated fighterjet with poor training and support. I know I can be wrong but we will certainly see both aircraft used as a bombtruck 99,99% of the time.

So this emphasis on AtoA senario is quite outdated for me. I think superhornet, rafale, and F35 are perfectly suited for nowadays and future conflicts: They are survivable, have a good combat persistance and can carry a significant lethal combat load.
(And if needed they are very potent BVR aircraft too!)

I think the Typhoon despite being a formidable fighter lack (to a certain extent) at least one of these qualities: combat persistance.
Indeed when you look at all the AtoG configuration you soon realise that it doesn’t have the legs to be very persistent above a conflict theater. It cannot carry a significat load of external fuel due to the wing too close of the ground and the hard points too close from one another. This fact clearly betrays an AtoA emphasis during the conception with a secondary AtoG capability.

In world were you have to fight “unforseeable”, time critical targets you need to circle as long as you can above the troops on the ground to provide a protection as long as you can.

Air refueling is often quite far from the conflict zone due to the fact that the war zone is very widespread (in afganistan for instance). I remember a SUE pilot from the MN who told that Air refueling was 20 min away from the combat zone, so it is 20min*2 +the time you spend refuelling (two aircrafts).
Consequently air refuelling don’t cancel the argument to be able to be combat persistant.

To conclude, I prefer a compromise cost/performance like the superhornet the rafale or the F35: Thicker wing, more fuel, better subsonic performances, bigger playload…Than the typhoon or even the F22. They seem to be potentially much more versatile in their design and more adapted to post cold war conflicts.

regards.

scorpion82:

Didn’t some frenchies told that Rafale performed “good”? But indeed without any details its simply worth nothing

.

yes there are some suspicions, but as you said nothing sure. here are the sources I have already posted from MN official website:

ps : I hope this post is balanced enough to don’t hurt any succeptibilities.

arthuro:

The results of the first rafale M F1 vs italian typhoon confrontation despite not beeing officially published, are quite encouraging for the rafale according to rafale pilots.

this is a comment of a rafale M F1 pilot about the rafale vs other air superiority fighters and the typhoon. You can conclude that:

1)rafale was the winner if you are optimistic or pesimistic (depends on the side you are) if you think the sentence is ironic
2) or at least they were approximatelly equal and the rafale has “not many thing to envy” in that role

So it really leaves place for your personnal interpretation, but in both cases the rafale has done well.

-Depuis 2001, les 10 Rafale F1 livrés à la flottille 12F, basée à Landivisiau (Finistère), ont été opposés à de nombreux appareil : « On s’est mesuré à pas mal d’avions de défense aérienne, comme le F-14, le F-15, le F-18, le Gripen, le Mirage 2000 et, ce mois-ci, à l’Eurofighter. On voit qu’on n’a pas grand-chose à envier aux autres. Le Rafale est un avion comparable au F-18 et il suscite beaucoup de curiosité ».

Translation :
Since 2001, the 10 Rafale F1 delivered to the 12F, based at LAndivisiau, have been opposed to numerous aircraft : “we’ve had a confrontation with lots of air-defense fighters, such as the F-14, the F-15, the F-18, the Gripen, the M2000 and, this month, the Eurofighter. We see that we do not have many things to envy to the others. The Rafale is comparable to the F-18, and it arouse a lot of curiosity.”
Enjoy…

SOURCE (from official MN website) :http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=104002

There is another intresting comment of a Rafale F2 pilot from the AdA during TLP in belgium:

source: http://www.ec17provence.org/tlp.html

Pour ceux qui spéculaient sur un “affrontement” Rafale – Typhoon, sachez que ces derniers ne se sont pas approchés de nos avions. En revanche, les discussions entre les équipages français et anglais montrent une grande similitude entre les machines et les méthodes de travail.

Translation: For those Who were speculating on a Rafale vs Typhoon know that these didnt come close to our aircrafts. Meanwhile, the conversations exchanged between the French and English aircrews shows a great similarity between the aircrafts and the working methods.

this fuel a speculative issue about the EF reluctant to meet the rafale.
This controversy started in spain during tiger meet where rafale pilots asked for a confrontation against the spanish typhoons but those were unavailable…(according to the weekly air et cosmos). In landivisiau UK typhoon were invited but they declined (fox three n10 and press).

A last comment from a commandant of the MN (rafale M F1 pilot)

source: official MN website http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm? … urofighter

« Il se tient parfaitement bien et n’a aucun mal à rivaliser avec des F-16, F-18 ou eurofighter. C’est un appareil extrêmement performant, l’un des meilleurs. Quand on le voit en défense aérienne, je pense qu’on va être très agréablement surpris par la version F2 »,

translation:

“it handles very well and has no difficulties in rivalising against F16 F18 or the eurofighter. It is an extremly performant aircraft, one of the best. When you see it in air superiority, I think we will be very delightelly surprised with the F2 standart”

I don’t claim rafale is superior to the EF AtoA, my point is to say that differences are not that great in that role. I think people get used (with some good reasons it’s true) to hear that EF was better in the AtoA role and the rafale in AtoG, but reallity is certainly far more complex.

I hope this post it is not to “flammable”! at least those comments are worth to be published here knowing the intrest on that subject .It is still debatable!

regards.

+1 with Tmor,

ACM statment is a good thing for rafale but you don’t need to immediately compare it to typhoon. MMI is not something measurable, remember it! You can have diffrent sucessful approach, I think anyone can aknowledge that.
This statment just means that rafale was sucessful in its own approach, no need to compare it to typhoon jacko!