oh no!

please everyone try to remain calm don’t respond. That was a nice discussion until now…Nobody is taking him seriously so no need to argue.

thanks.

no problem rob, it is because I have already posted the comments on page 2 of this thread.

The results of the first rafale M F1 vs italian typhoon confrontation despite not beeing officially published, are quite encouraging for the rafale according to rafale pilots.

this is a comment of a rafale M F1 pilot about the rafale vs other air superiority fighters and the typhoon. You can conclude that:

1)rafale was the winner if you are optimistic or pesimistic (depends on the side you are) if you think the sentence is ironic
2) or at least they were approximatelly equal and the rafale has “not many thing to envy” in that role

So it really leaves place for your personnal interpretation, but in both cases the rafale has done well.

-Depuis 2001, les 10 Rafale F1 livrés à la flottille 12F, basée à Landivisiau (Finistère), ont été opposés à de nombreux appareil : « On s’est mesuré à pas mal d’avions de défense aérienne, comme le F-14, le F-15, le F-18, le Gripen, le Mirage 2000 et, ce mois-ci, à l’Eurofighter. On voit qu’on n’a pas grand-chose à envier aux autres. Le Rafale est un avion comparable au F-18 et il suscite beaucoup de curiosité ».

Translation :
Since 2001, the 10 Rafale F1 delivered to the 12F, based at LAndivisiau, have been opposed to numerous aircraft : “we’ve had a confrontation with lots of air-defense fighters, such as the F-14, the F-15, the F-18, the Gripen, the M2000 and, this month, the Eurofighter. We see that we do not have many things to envy to the others. The Rafale is comparable to the F-18, and it arouse a lot of curiosity.”
Enjoy…

SOURCE (from official MN website) :http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=104002

There is another intresting comment of a Rafale F2 pilot from the AdA during TLP in belgium:

source: http://www.ec17provence.org/tlp.html

Pour ceux qui spéculaient sur un “affrontement” Rafale – Typhoon, sachez que ces derniers ne se sont pas approchés de nos avions. En revanche, les discussions entre les équipages français et anglais montrent une grande similitude entre les machines et les méthodes de travail.

Translation: For those Who were speculating on a Rafale vs Typhoon know that these didnt come close to our aircrafts. Meanwhile, the conversations exchanged between the French and English aircrews shows a great similarity between the aircrafts and the working methods.

this fuel a speculative issue about the EF reluctant to meet the rafale.
This controversy started in spain during tiger meet where rafale pilots asked for a confrontation against the spanish typhoons but those were unavailable…(according to the weekly air et cosmos). In landivisiau UK typhoon were invited but they declined (fox three n10 and press).

A last comment from a commandant of the MN (rafale M F1 pilot)

source: official MN website http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm? … urofighter

« Il se tient parfaitement bien et n’a aucun mal à rivaliser avec des F-16, F-18 ou eurofighter. C’est un appareil extrêmement performant, l’un des meilleurs. Quand on le voit en défense aérienne, je pense qu’on va être très agréablement surpris par la version F2 »,

translation:

“it handles very well and has no difficulties in rivalising against F16 F18 or the eurofighter. It is an extremly performant aircraft, one of the best. When you see it in air superiority, I think we will be very delightelly surprised with the F2 standart”

I don’t claim rafale is superior to the EF AtoA, my point is to say that differences are not that great in that role. I think people get used (with some good reasons it’s true) to hear that EF was better in the AtoA role and the rafale in AtoG, but reallity is certainly far more complex.

I hope this post it is not to “flammable”! at least those comments are worth to be published here knowing the intrest on that subject .It is still debatable!

regards.

nice TV report on rafale

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LppnCUWIx9Y

some intresting rafle news.

I am currently reading Air et cosmos about rafale deployment in afganistan;

it seems that the crash programme to integrate the lgb (12 and 22) has boosted the programme.

First integrate new Lgb (16 and 24) with the damocles pod in 2009, AASM decametric and metric as already scedulded (2007 and 2008), a new FSO, AESA, new missile warning reciever, satellite transmissions and a new ground/image transmission to know in the cockpit what the SF see.
And since now they are thinking about new upgrades which will lead to an F4 standart in 2015-2018 horizon.

Funnily in this article colonel moussez is often quoted;)

And last but not least in an other article it is said that rafale first export could be revealed just before the presidancial ellection with marroco.

regards.

the link was:

http://www.c2sd.sga.defense.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/c2sd_polyvalence_rafale_2006.pdf

john, in response to your last post.

you are partially right to point out that french posters are unable to speak about rafale weakness. (we have all our preferences:o ) But I have read your posts for several years now on various forum and even if I don’t post often you give me exactly the same impression for the EF.

so this is a criticism you can apply to yourself.

One thing, we always focus on AtoA. If it is great for egos to know which aircraft will destroy the other one, it is not representative of what both aircraft will do in actual combat.

I think that combat persistence, survivability and lethality are the true assets in nowadays conflicts. It is highly unprobable that rafale or EF will be engaged directly against another super figther, most of the time (99,999%) they will do air strike.
In that matter the abillity of the rafale to fire 6 all wheather AASM in only one pass whatever the altitude (because it has a booster and not a wing) and at security ranges is really an achievment.

It is this capacity which impressed the most during TLP in belgium

source: http://www.ec17provence.org/tlp.html

Dès les premières préparations, la possibilité qu’à le Rafale de traiter jusqu’à six objectifs simultanément (AASM) a été unanimement appréciée.

Il est vrai que d’autres appareils sont capables de tirer plusieurs DMPI (Desired Mean Point of Impact) mais pas en si grand nombre pour chaque avion et pas simultanément

regards.

Rafale, the French fighter, scrambles for export orders
By Christina Mackenzie
International Herald Tribune

Published: July 16, 2006 Paris

Riddle: Which combat aircraft outperforms its competitors in dogfights, is frequently classed first on technical merit in international tenders, is capable of covering a broad spectrum of air missions and is competitively priced, but has yet to win a single export order from a foreign air force? Answer: the Rafale, the French fighter developed and manufactured by Dassault Aviation.

In development since the mid-1980s and in French naval carrier-based service since 2004, Rafale is a so-called fourth-generation fighter, a sophisticated multirole jet with advanced avionics and weapons systems, but less able to avoid radar detection than “fifth generation” stealth fighters like the Lockheed-Martin F-22 Raptor or the U.S.-European F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

Competitors include the U.S.-made F- 15 Eagle, in service in various versions since the 1970s, the F-16 Fighting Falcon and F-18E/F Super Hornet, the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Swedish-built JAS-39 Gripen, marketed in collaboration with BAE Systems of Britain.

Dassault and the French Ministry of Defense hope that exports may now take off after Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin declared operational a first French air force squadron of 20 Rafales on June 27.

“It’s almost impossible to sell a combat aircraft not operational in its own air force,” Gérard David, head of communications for Dassault said during an interview by telephone. “The doors are now open to Rafale’s export career.”
Within the French military, the Rafale eventually would replace existing air force and naval fighters and fighter- bombers, including the Mirage IV, F1 and 2000; the Jaguar; Crusader; Etendard IV and Super-Etendard.

“This is going to reduce our operating costs tremendously through rationalization of maintenance,” said General Patrick Dufour, director of the Rafale program at the Délégation Générale de l’Armement, France’s defense procurement agency.

Colonel François Moussez, a pilot who has flown 150 hours on the Rafale, said that two could do the work of six existing air superiority/defense and air-to-surface attack jets. “With the Rafale,” he said, “we can do simultaneous multimission management: air-to-air, air-to- ground, reconnaissance at the same time.”

Moussez said that in dogfight exercises, the Rafale had outflown F-15, F-16 and F-18 opponents, and in technical and performance evaluations “we have systematically won against the F-15 and the Eurofighter Typhoon.”
Yet it lost to the F-15 in competitions to sell to South Korea and Singapore. Moussez said it was outflanked in the former case on political grounds and in the latter case on costs, noting that the dollar had depreciated 30 percent over the period of the Singapore competition.

In competitions to sell combat aircraft, “the principal criterion is political. It has little to do with aircraft performance,” Moussez said.

Richard Aboulafia, an aerospace analyst with Teal Group in Fairfax, Virginia, also says that politics play a major role in fighter procurement. “Aggressive U.S. foreign policy” was a primary cause of export wins by U.S. military jets, he said during an interview by telephone.

Bob Kemp, director of sales for the Gripen, was not so sure. “There is no doubt a political factor,” he said during an interview. But “the first thing is, the aircraft must be able to do the job, and the second is financial.”
The Gripen, in operation with the Swedish Air Force since 1997, has been sold or leased to three countries and is quietly adding more orders, partly because it is “half the price of our competitors,” Kemp said.

Pricing combat aircraft is notoriously complex, with deals often involving industrial offsets and seldom reflecting full aircraft development costs. While Dufour put the average cost of a Rafale at €50 million, or $64 million, and the Typhoon – a collaboration grouping Italy, Germany, Spain and Britain – at about £65 million, or $120 million, Kemp said both aircraft had been offered to Singapore and South Korea at about $95 million each, compared with a basic price tag of $45 million to $50 million for the Gripen.

Combat aircraft technology “costs what it weighs,” Kemp said. “The Typhoon is basically twice the weight of the Gripen – and costs twice as much.”
The Typhoon, although lacking air-to- ground capacity in its current version, already has one export customer. Austria signed for 18 aircraft in August 2003 and Britain has signed a preliminary agreement with Saudi Arabia to supply at least 24 Typhoons from the British production run of 89 aircraft, although no final deal has been sealed.

Meanwhile Gripen has sold 28 aircraft to South Africa, the first of which left Sweden by ship in early July for the Overburg test flight center near Cape Town. Hungary has signed a lease and purchase agreement with Sweden for 14 aircraft, of which the first five were handed over in March. And the Czech Republic has leased 14 aircraft, all of which have been delivered. Norway and Denmark have also requested information on the Gripen from Saab, its manufacturer.

French procurement officials, comparing the sales prospects of the Gripen and Rafale, said the Gripen was designed for a different type of mission. The Rafale, a twin-engine aircraft with a maximum takeoff weight of 24.5 tons, can carry 9.5 tons of weapons slung under its wings, while the single-engine Gripen, with a maximum takeoff weight of 14 tons, carries only 5 tons of weapons.

Kemp agrees. Buyers of the heavier fighters “pay for longer range and heavier weapons loads,” he said, fitting them for a strategic defense role that some air forces may find less relevant than it was at the height of the cold war.

Still, by 2030, many countries will need to renew their combat aircraft fleets including some, like India and Japan, that may face significant strategic challenges. Saudi Arabia may finalize its Typhoon deal at the Farnborough Airshow, and analysts say other likely customers in the near future include Morocco and Brazil.

Excluding the United States, Russia and China, the open export market is estimated by analysts at around 3,000 aircraft. France traditionally holds between 10 percent to 15 percent of this market. Based on political preferences and past performance, France could hope to export about 300 Rafales, analysts say.

joe-h

The results of the first rafale M F1 vs italian typhoon confrontation despite not beeing officially published, are quite encouraging for the rafale according to rafale pilots.

this is a comment of a rafale M F1 pilot about the rafale vs other air superiority fighters and the typhoon. You can conclude that:

1)rafale was the winner if you are optimistic or pesimistic (depends on the side you are) if you think the sentence is ironic
2) or at least they were approximatelly equal and the rafale has “not many thing to envy” in that role

So it really leaves place for your personnal interpretation, but in both cases the rafale has done well.

-Depuis 2001, les 10 Rafale F1 livrés à la flottille 12F, basée à Landivisiau (Finistère), ont été opposés à de nombreux appareil : « On s’est mesuré à pas mal d’avions de défense aérienne, comme le F-14, le F-15, le F-18, le Gripen, le Mirage 2000 et, ce mois-ci, à l’Eurofighter. On voit qu’on n’a pas grand-chose à envier aux autres. Le Rafale est un avion comparable au F-18 et il suscite beaucoup de curiosité ».

Translation :
Since 2001, the 10 Rafale F1 delivered to the 12F, based at LAndivisiau, have been opposed to numerous aircraft : “we’ve had a confrontation with lots of air-defense fighters, such as the F-14, the F-15, the F-18, the Gripen, the M2000 and, this month, the Eurofighter. We see that we do not have many things to envy to the others. The Rafale is comparable to the F-18, and it arouse a lot of curiosity.”
Enjoy…

SOURCE (from official MN website) :http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=104002

There is another intresting comment of a Rafale F2 pilot from the AdA during TLP in belgium:

source: http://www.ec17provence.org/tlp.html

Pour ceux qui spéculaient sur un “affrontement” Rafale – Typhoon, sachez que ces derniers ne se sont pas approchés de nos avions. En revanche, les discussions entre les équipages français et anglais montrent une grande similitude entre les machines et les méthodes de travail.

Translation: For those Who were speculating on a Rafale vs Typhoon know that these didnt come close to our aircrafts. Meanwhile, the conversations exchanged between the French and English aircrews shows a great similarity between the aircrafts and the working methods.

this fuel a speculative issue about the EF reluctant to meet the rafale.
This controversy started in spain during tiger meet where rafale pilots asked for a confrontation against the spanish typhoons but those were unavailable…(according to the weekly air et cosmos). In landivisiau UK typhoon were invited but they declined (fox three n10 and press).

A last comment from a commandant of the MN (rafale M F1 pilot)

source: official MN website http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm? … urofighter

« Il se tient parfaitement bien et n’a aucun mal à rivaliser avec des F-16, F-18 ou eurofighter. C’est un appareil extrêmement performant, l’un des meilleurs. Quand on le voit en défense aérienne, je pense qu’on va être très agréablement surpris par la version F2 »,

translation:

“it handles very well and has no difficulties in rivalising against F16 F18 or the eurofighter. It is an extremly performant aircraft, one of the best. When you see it in air superiority, I think we will be very delightelly surprised with the F2 standart”

I don’t claim rafale is superior to the EF AtoA, my point is to say that differences are not that great in that role. I think people get used (with some good reasons it’s true) to hear that EF was better in the AtoA role and the rafale in AtoG, but reallity is certainly far more complex.

I hope this post it is not to “flammable”! 🙂 at least those comments are worth to be published here knowing the intrest on that subject .It is still debatable!

regards.