arthurommm… it is very confusing indeed!!
Frankly I am not very optimistic about that progamm. For the moment the current government pushes very hard for it….But with the elections it will change everything. It is not a secret that the socialist want to scrap this programm (they advertise it on television) and the conservative party cautiously avoid the subject.
It is now a race to make it as irreversible as possible for the current governement….
reread the article posted on this topic, it’s very clear that they are accelerating as much as possible the process. (They are ordering tha catapults…)
So we will probably see a complete u turn about that programm in france.
arthurothere is a big political hurdle for this contract: the bulgarian nurses which were sentenced with the capital punishment.
Sarkozy which is the front runner for french presidential election stated yesterday in his speech to start officially the campain that there will be no compromised make on this point with lybia, even if there are big contacts on the line ( was he thinking about the rafale deal?:rolleyes: )
arthuromartinez,
quote :French Rafales in Hungary 2006….tons of pictures.
http://superfighter.freeweb.hu/RAFAL…AGE/index.html
theese rafale’s pictures are just BEAUTIFUL. Thanks a lot for sharing.
arthuroI was intrested in this point and as i understand i think the AdA hasn’t expressed the need for those hardpoints. It just doesn’t correspond to their operational configurations but it is cleared for any foreign customer.
arthuroKKM57P: as you can see if you take the time to read both articles it debunks most of your statments.
arthuroFrench Air Force Enters New Era with First Rafale Squadron
(Source: Rafale International; issued July 3, 2006)
SAINT DIZIER, France — The first French Air Force squadron to operate the Dassault Rafale omnirole fighter attained full operational capability here on June 27, during a ceremony attended by French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, Defence Minister Michèle Alliot-Marie and other senior government officials.
This largely symbolic event took place the day after two of the squadron’s deployed aircraft effectively stood up for their first operational air defence mission at Mont de Marsan air base, in southern France.
The unit based here, n° 1/7 “Provence” squadron, previously operated Jaguar fighter-bombers in the ground attack role. It has now taken delivery of ten Rafales, and will receive another ten by the end of the year, when it will attain its full operational strength. A second Rafale squadron, this time tasked with the nuclear strike role, will stand up in 2008 with another 20 aircraft.
In all, the French Air Force will receive 234 Rafales, split between Rafale B two-seat and Rafale C single-seat versions, while the French Navy will operate 60 Rafale M single-seaters. To date, 120 Rafales have been ordered for both services, and 34 have been delivered.
The Air Force order covers a total of 82 aircraft (44 single-seaters and 38 two-seaters) with an additional 38 Rafale Ms – all single-seaters – for the Navy. Under current plans, production is to continue until 2023.
Five years after the French Navy received its first aircraft, Rafale ushers the French Air Force into the era of network-centric warfare, thanks to its unique capabilities in terms of data fusion, tactical connectivity, passive target detection and weapons load. “You can talk about fourth-generation or fifth-generation aircraft all you want, but what really matters is that Rafale is one full generation ahead of all other aircraft,” says Major General (armament corps) Patrick Dufour, Rafale program director at the French defence procurement agency, Delegation Générale pour l’Armement (DGA). “It can perform any mission, anywhere, and that’s what counts.”
In fact, the French Air Force considers that two Rafales will provide commanders with the same mission capabilities as a formation of four Mirage 2000D attack aircraft escorted by two Mirage 2000-5F air superiority fighters. In this sense, says Dufour, it is a true force multiplier.
The “Provence” squadron’s pilots, who spent about two years working up on the Rafale at the operational conversion unit in Mont de Marsan, have logged an average of 120 to 130 flight hours on the aircraft.
“The most noticeable difference compared to other aircraft is that Rafale is a flying computer. It manages its own flight parameters, leaving its pilot free to concentrate on the tactical mission,” says Capt. Nicolas Lyautey, one of the first pilots of n° 1/7 “Provence” squadron to convert to the Rafale. He previously flew Jaguar fighter-bombers, comparable to Rafale in terms of size and weight but clearly outclassed in terms of capabilities. He went solo on the Rafale after only four flights with an instructor, and says that the aircraft is so simple to operate that pilots can undertake their first operational missions after about 50 flight hours.
The Rafale’s central computer monitors all flight, engine and system parameters as background tasks, and they are only brought up on the cockpit’s three LCD screens or head-up display when a decision or an input is required from the pilot. This avoids information overload, reduces workload and creates an uncluttered environment in which aircrew can concentrate exclusively on flying the mission.
“Using the autopilot, auto-throttle and navigation aids, the aircraft can fly a complete high-speed mission at an altitude of 200 feet above sea level without any intervention by its pilot,” says Jean-Marc Gasparini, deputy Rafale program manager for Dassault Aviation.
One of the more challenging aspects of Rafale operations is how to fully exploit its capabilities, and especially its range of passive sensors. Pilots, for example, can use its TV/thermal imaging observation system (dubbed Optronique Secteur Frontal, and similar in principle to infrared scan and track) to visually identify other aircraft at ranges of more than 50 kilometres (approx. 30 nautical miles), and transmit this and other tactical data to other aircraft using their MIDS datalink.
Another unique capability, according to Col. François Moussez, the French Air force’s Rafale program officer is that it can fire missiles at targets detected and designated by its integrated Spectra countermeasures suite, again without any need for active transmissions that can give away its position.
Remarkably, Rafale will continue to offer capabilities in advance of its competitors thanks to an upgrade policy adopted by the French defence ministry. This ensures that in-service aircraft are upgraded as new capabilities are cleared, so that the entire fleet is always maintained at the latest available standard.
The first Rafales to enter Navy service were configured to the F1 standard, optimised for air-to-air operations. The F2 standard is networked-enabled and adds air-to-ground capabilities, allowing Rafale to fire Scalp cruise missiles, made by MBDA, as well as AASM precision-guided bombs made by Sagem Défense & Securité.
Dassault is now working to finalize the improved F3 standard, which will be available from June 2008 and will add additional weapons, including the ASMPA nuclear stand-off missile, the AM-39 Exocet anti-ship missile and the Thales Reco NG reconnaissance pod. All navy and air force aircraft already in service will be retrofitted to F3 standard by uploading a new software package, which will become standard fit for all subsequent production aircraft.
Further improvements are planned as part of the program’s “R&D feeding policy,” although not all have been approved or funded to date. These will ultimately include uprated Snecma M-88 engines each delivering 9 tonnes of thrust (compared to today’s 7.5 tonnes), a new radar with advanced electronically-scanned antenna replacing the current RBE-2 radar with shaped-beam antenna, a new missile warning receiver, an improved Front Sector Optronics system and, beginning in 2012, the Meteor beyond-visual range missile being developed by a European industry team led by MBDA. If approved, these improvements will become standard beginning with the 120th production aircraft, says DGA’s Dufour.
Despite this apparent complexity, Rafale was designed to operate with bare-bones support, and for instance has entirely done away with scheduled maintenance – a premiere for an advanced combat aircraft. Thanks to its permanent auto-testing processing and real-time monitoring airframe fatigue by the aircraft’s own computer, maintenance operations depend on the real condition of individual components. Furthermore, all operational and maintenance paperwork is stored in a single computer database, allowing detailed monitoring of aircraft condition by maintenance crews as well as outside contractors.
“Our design objective was to reduce maintenance man-hours per flight hours by 23% compared to the Mirage 2000,” says Col Moussez, “and on initial experience we in fact achieved better than 25%.”
French officials are also at pains to stress that Rafale, despite its quantum leap in capabilities, remains much more affordable than competing aircraft. DGA’s Dufour says that the total cost of the 294-aircraft program, including development, pre-production, production and integrated logistical support, amounts to 33,273 million euros (inclusive of value-added tax) at 2003 prices. This is an increase of just 4.18 percent, or 1,336 million euros, over the projected cost in 1988, when the original contract was signed. Competing combat aircraft cost at least one-third more, reinforcing Dassault’s belief that the Rafale will eventually score highly on the export market.
-ends-
arthuroRafale, the French fighter, scrambles for export orders
By Christina Mackenzie
International Herald Tribune
Published: July 16, 2006 Paris
Riddle: Which combat aircraft outperforms its competitors in dogfights, is frequently classed first on technical merit in international tenders, is capable of covering a broad spectrum of air missions and is competitively priced, but has yet to win a single export order from a foreign air force? Answer: the Rafale, the French fighter developed and manufactured by Dassault Aviation.
In development since the mid-1980s and in French naval carrier-based service since 2004, Rafale is a so-called fourth-generation fighter, a sophisticated multirole jet with advanced avionics and weapons systems, but less able to avoid radar detection than “fifth generation” stealth fighters like the Lockheed-Martin F-22 Raptor or the U.S.-European F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.
Competitors include the U.S.-made F- 15 Eagle, in service in various versions since the 1970s, the F-16 Fighting Falcon and F-18E/F Super Hornet, the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Swedish-built JAS-39 Gripen, marketed in collaboration with BAE Systems of Britain.
Dassault and the French Ministry of Defense hope that exports may now take off after Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin declared operational a first French air force squadron of 20 Rafales on June 27.
“It’s almost impossible to sell a combat aircraft not operational in its own air force,” Gérard David, head of communications for Dassault said during an interview by telephone. “The doors are now open to Rafale’s export career.”
Within the French military, the Rafale eventually would replace existing air force and naval fighters and fighter- bombers, including the Mirage IV, F1 and 2000; the Jaguar; Crusader; Etendard IV and Super-Etendard.
“This is going to reduce our operating costs tremendously through rationalization of maintenance,” said General Patrick Dufour, director of the Rafale program at the Délégation Générale de l’Armement, France’s defense procurement agency.
Colonel François Moussez, a pilot who has flown 150 hours on the Rafale, said that two could do the work of six existing air superiority/defense and air-to-surface attack jets. “With the Rafale,” he said, “we can do simultaneous multimission management: air-to-air, air-to- ground, reconnaissance at the same time.”
Moussez said that in dogfight exercises, the Rafale had outflown F-15, F-16 and F-18 opponents, and in technical and performance evaluations “we have systematically won against the F-15 and the Eurofighter Typhoon.”
Yet it lost to the F-15 in competitions to sell to South Korea and Singapore. Moussez said it was outflanked in the former case on political grounds and in the latter case on costs, noting that the dollar had depreciated 30 percent over the period of the Singapore competition.
In competitions to sell combat aircraft, “the principal criterion is political. It has little to do with aircraft performance,” Moussez said.
Richard Aboulafia, an aerospace analyst with Teal Group in Fairfax, Virginia, also says that politics play a major role in fighter procurement. “Aggressive U.S. foreign policy” was a primary cause of export wins by U.S. military jets, he said during an interview by telephone.
Bob Kemp, director of sales for the Gripen, was not so sure. “There is no doubt a political factor,” he said during an interview. But “the first thing is, the aircraft must be able to do the job, and the second is financial.”
The Gripen, in operation with the Swedish Air Force since 1997, has been sold or leased to three countries and is quietly adding more orders, partly because it is “half the price of our competitors,” Kemp said.
Pricing combat aircraft is notoriously complex, with deals often involving industrial offsets and seldom reflecting full aircraft development costs. While Dufour put the average cost of a Rafale at €50 million, or $64 million, and the Typhoon – a collaboration grouping Italy, Germany, Spain and Britain – at about £65 million, or $120 million, Kemp said both aircraft had been offered to Singapore and South Korea at about $95 million each, compared with a basic price tag of $45 million to $50 million for the Gripen.
Combat aircraft technology “costs what it weighs,” Kemp said. “The Typhoon is basically twice the weight of the Gripen – and costs twice as much.”
The Typhoon, although lacking air-to- ground capacity in its current version, already has one export customer. Austria signed for 18 aircraft in August 2003 and Britain has signed a preliminary agreement with Saudi Arabia to supply at least 24 Typhoons from the British production run of 89 aircraft, although no final deal has been sealed.
Meanwhile Gripen has sold 28 aircraft to South Africa, the first of which left Sweden by ship in early July for the Overburg test flight center near Cape Town. Hungary has signed a lease and purchase agreement with Sweden for 14 aircraft, of which the first five were handed over in March. And the Czech Republic has leased 14 aircraft, all of which have been delivered. Norway and Denmark have also requested information on the Gripen from Saab, its manufacturer.
French procurement officials, comparing the sales prospects of the Gripen and Rafale, said the Gripen was designed for a different type of mission. The Rafale, a twin-engine aircraft with a maximum takeoff weight of 24.5 tons, can carry 9.5 tons of weapons slung under its wings, while the single-engine Gripen, with a maximum takeoff weight of 14 tons, carries only 5 tons of weapons.
Kemp agrees. Buyers of the heavier fighters “pay for longer range and heavier weapons loads,” he said, fitting them for a strategic defense role that some air forces may find less relevant than it was at the height of the cold war.
Still, by 2030, many countries will need to renew their combat aircraft fleets including some, like India and Japan, that may face significant strategic challenges. Saudi Arabia may finalize its Typhoon deal at the Farnborough Airshow, and analysts say other likely customers in the near future include Morocco and Brazil.
Excluding the United States, Russia and China, the open export market is estimated by analysts at around 3,000 aircraft. France traditionally holds between 10 percent to 15 percent of this market. Based on political preferences and past performance, France could hope to export about 300 Rafales, analysts say.
arthuroKKM57P: the story about singapore was written by john lake. I think that his objectivity can be reasonnably called into question when you read his post over the net about Typhoon.
I have gathered all articles i have about rafales and it just doesn’t correspond to your description. You just have gathered here all the ideas of rafale’s basher over the net.
but you also failed to explain why the rafale came top of the korean and singaporean technical evaluation ahead the F15 and the Typhoon and why the rafale came second of the dutch evaluation very close to the the F35 but far ahead the typhoon. That would mean that other competitors are even worse.
regards.
arthuroI forgot to say that all the algorithms for pesa are valid for aesa radar
arthurohi tiddles: you are free to have your opinion about the rbe2, I can live with it. But i noticed that some flaws that were atributed to the rafale are unjustified. unfortunately this kind of information was repeated on forum (often hostile to the rafale) and now it is considered as a general truth. I think it is the case for the rbe2.
I can’t see any relevant argument against it. That does not mean it is the best, but it means that performances are just what it was expected.
PESA is a logical step towards AESA. It takes less than an hour to skip the antenna which is plug and play.
Last thing the AESA antenna devlopped for the rbe2 will be of the latest generation. Semi conductors are one of the five top priorities of thales with lot of R&D and purchase of small foreign compagnies which have the know-how in semi conductors. (indeed thales is not a franco-french firm but is largely globalized). A lot of catching up has been made. When Thales will produce AESA it will be the same generation as the F35 and a generation ahead of the F22.
regards
arthurostupid arrogant statment! So tell me why dassault is devlopping the stealthy neuron! I view Stealth as part of pakage. It doesn’t make your aircraft invincible but it is a great leap in capacities. The F22 and the F35 have stealth but have full of other things that make them more advanced.
arthuroah! and I forgot that the AESA antena, the fso ng and the new missile warning system is know founded. The DGA awarded a 400M € contract to the rafale team at the end of october. 51 rafales instead of 59 will be ordered to fund this upgrade. The goal of 294 remain unchanged. It will be ready for the 120th rafale in 2012.
arthurotiddles:
I must desagree with you with the rbe2. I see no reasons to crticize it. Ok it has a penalty in range but it can perform simultaneous AtoA and Ato ground functions which is quite unique for the moment. It operates in LPI modes and is less prone to jamming than mechanical radars. Besides the penalty in range is not a problem when you are in a network centric warfare environment. Don’t forget the data fusion with the fso and spectra which enables the rafale to track stealth aircrafts at long ranges.
The echo of a stealth aircraft would disapear in the clutter but if the weak echo alsocorrespond to an IR/EW signature then it will become a firing solution. the radar despite beeing very performant is not considered as the prime sensor but part of system.
this is an extract from an article about the rafale:
“The RBE2 radar had been in development since 1989. It was decided that the radar would receive a
new phased-array antenna with full electronic scan, instead of the electro-mechanical scan employed by
the Eurofighter Typhoon’s Captor radar. Initially, the radar received a passive phased-array
antenna, but ultimately an active electronically scanned array (AESA) will be fitted. According to
French Ministry of Defense (MoD) sources, the RBE2 radar has a modest range about 100 km
against fighter aircraft, but it operates in a low-probability-of-intercept (LPI) mode and is
resistant to deception jamming. The Typhoon’s Captor has a range of 160 km against fighters
but is considered more prone to jamming and can track fewer targets. The French Air Force
accepted the penalty in range reduction for the benefits of LPI and other characteristics.
Moreover, in network-centric operations, a common air picture will be transmitted via the
Multifunctional Information Distribution System (MIDS) to the Rafale, enabling the aircraft to make
use of off-board sensors.”
arthurothe rafale is one of the very rare miltary programme which is not under the critic in france. report from the assembly or the senate usally state it is well fit to french needs and that it is cheaper than most other fighters.
arthurowhy is the rafale an industrial nightmare? where did you heard that? I know it was plagued with delays for funding (political) reasons but I never heard issues about industrialisation.
Conversely there was a report recently posted on this and other military aviations forums which said that the inflation of rafale programme didn’t exceed 4% from the beginning which is quite a performance.
I am folowing very closely french aeronautic press for years and i never heard of industrial nightmare or even problems in that matter.
perhaps an other french poster could post reports from the french assembly or senate which praise the rafale which is something very rare for a military programmes. Usely theese reports are very fierce.
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