arthurothe cft are not a requirement for the french air force since it has an air refuelling capability. they were initially designed for the rafale mk2 that was offered to korea. ( mk2= m88-3+cft+AESA!!). It can be part of an export package if required. I rember seeing the rafale with the cfts during the Bourget 2003.
90% of the m88-3 development is already achieved, and it was already tested ( on ground). BUT, the french air force has the choice between enhanced power ( 9t instead of 7.5) with the same durability as the previous generation, OR the same trust but with far greater life span. The second option is said to be the favourite in the french airforce. It is called the M88 ECO. the difference between the M88-3 and the ECO is a matter of software. So if an export customer need more trust…
arthuroI post this last article about the rafale which enlitghtens its fighter capabilities
.Rafale, the French fighter, scrambles for export orders
By Christina Mackenzie
International Herald Tribune
Published: July 16, 2006 Paris
Riddle: Which combat aircraft outperforms its competitors in dogfights, is frequently classed first on technical merit in international tenders, is capable of covering a broad spectrum of air missions and is competitively priced, but has yet to win a single export order from a foreign air force? Answer: the Rafale, the French fighter developed and manufactured by Dassault Aviation.
In development since the mid-1980s and in French naval carrier-based service since 2004, Rafale is a so-called fourth-generation fighter, a sophisticated multirole jet with advanced avionics and weapons systems, but less able to avoid radar detection than “fifth generation” stealth fighters like the Lockheed-Martin F-22 Raptor or the U.S.-European F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.
Competitors include the U.S.-made F- 15 Eagle, in service in various versions since the 1970s, the F-16 Fighting Falcon and F-18E/F Super Hornet, the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Swedish-built JAS-39 Gripen, marketed in collaboration with BAE Systems of Britain.
Dassault and the French Ministry of Defense hope that exports may now take off after Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin declared operational a first French air force squadron of 20 Rafales on June 27.
“It’s almost impossible to sell a combat aircraft not operational in its own air force,” Gérard David, head of communications for Dassault said during an interview by telephone. “The doors are now open to Rafale’s export career.”
Within the French military, the Rafale eventually would replace existing air force and naval fighters and fighter- bombers, including the Mirage IV, F1 and 2000; the Jaguar; Crusader; Etendard IV and Super-Etendard.
“This is going to reduce our operating costs tremendously through rationalization of maintenance,” said General Patrick Dufour, director of the Rafale program at the Délégation Générale de l’Armement, France’s defense procurement agency.
Colonel François Moussez, a pilot who has flown 150 hours on the Rafale, said that two could do the work of six existing air superiority/defense and air-to-surface attack jets. “With the Rafale,” he said, “we can do simultaneous multimission management: air-to-air, air-to- ground, reconnaissance at the same time.”
Moussez said that in dogfight exercises, the Rafale had outflown F-15, F-16 and F-18 opponents, and in technical and performance evaluations “we have systematically won against the F-15 and the Eurofighter Typhoon.”
Yet it lost to the F-15 in competitions to sell to South Korea and Singapore. Moussez said it was outflanked in the former case on political grounds and in the latter case on costs, noting that the dollar had depreciated 30 percent over the period of the Singapore competition.
In competitions to sell combat aircraft, “the principal criterion is political. It has little to do with aircraft performance,” Moussez said.
Richard Aboulafia, an aerospace analyst with Teal Group in Fairfax, Virginia, also says that politics play a major role in fighter procurement. “Aggressive U.S. foreign policy” was a primary cause of export wins by U.S. military jets, he said during an interview by telephone.
Bob Kemp, director of sales for the Gripen, was not so sure. “There is no doubt a political factor,” he said during an interview. But “the first thing is, the aircraft must be able to do the job, and the second is financial.”
The Gripen, in operation with the Swedish Air Force since 1997, has been sold or leased to three countries and is quietly adding more orders, partly because it is “half the price of our competitors,” Kemp said.
Pricing combat aircraft is notoriously complex, with deals often involving industrial offsets and seldom reflecting full aircraft development costs. While Dufour put the average cost of a Rafale at €50 million, or $64 million, and the Typhoon – a collaboration grouping Italy, Germany, Spain and Britain – at about £65 million, or $120 million, Kemp said both aircraft had been offered to Singapore and South Korea at about $95 million each, compared with a basic price tag of $45 million to $50 million for the Gripen.
Combat aircraft technology “costs what it weighs,” Kemp said. “The Typhoon is basically twice the weight of the Gripen – and costs twice as much.”
The Typhoon, although lacking air-to- ground capacity in its current version, already has one export customer. Austria signed for 18 aircraft in August 2003 and Britain has signed a preliminary agreement with Saudi Arabia to supply at least 24 Typhoons from the British production run of 89 aircraft, although no final deal has been sealed.
Meanwhile Gripen has sold 28 aircraft to South Africa, the first of which left Sweden by ship in early July for the Overburg test flight center near Cape Town. Hungary has signed a lease and purchase agreement with Sweden for 14 aircraft, of which the first five were handed over in March. And the Czech Republic has leased 14 aircraft, all of which have been delivered. Norway and Denmark have also requested information on the Gripen from Saab, its manufacturer.
French procurement officials, comparing the sales prospects of the Gripen and Rafale, said the Gripen was designed for a different type of mission. The Rafale, a twin-engine aircraft with a maximum takeoff weight of 24.5 tons, can carry 9.5 tons of weapons slung under its wings, while the single-engine Gripen, with a maximum takeoff weight of 14 tons, carries only 5 tons of weapons.
Kemp agrees. Buyers of the heavier fighters “pay for longer range and heavier weapons loads,” he said, fitting them for a strategic defense role that some air forces may find less relevant than it was at the height of the cold war.
Still, by 2030, many countries will need to renew their combat aircraft fleets including some, like India and Japan, that may face significant strategic challenges. Saudi Arabia may finalize its Typhoon deal at the Farnborough Airshow, and analysts say other likely customers in the near future include Morocco and Brazil.
Excluding the United States, Russia and China, the open export market is estimated by analysts at around 3,000 aircraft. France traditionally holds between 10 percent to 15 percent of this market. Based on political preferences and past performance, France could hope to export about 300 Rafales, analysts say.
arthuroThis is a very informative article to asses the rafale F2 cpabilities, and the way it uses its passive sensors rather than the radar.
French Air Force Enters New Era with First Rafale Squadron
(Source: Rafale International; issued July 3, 2006)
SAINT DIZIER, France — The first French Air Force squadron to operate the Dassault Rafale omnirole fighter attained full operational capability here on June 27, during a ceremony attended by French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, Defence Minister Michèle Alliot-Marie and other senior government officials.
This largely symbolic event took place the day after two of the squadron’s deployed aircraft effectively stood up for their first operational air defence mission at Mont de Marsan air base, in southern France.
The unit based here, n° 1/7 “Provence” squadron, previously operated Jaguar fighter-bombers in the ground attack role. It has now taken delivery of ten Rafales, and will receive another ten by the end of the year, when it will attain its full operational strength. A second Rafale squadron, this time tasked with the nuclear strike role, will stand up in 2008 with another 20 aircraft.
In all, the French Air Force will receive 234 Rafales, split between Rafale B two-seat and Rafale C single-seat versions, while the French Navy will operate 60 Rafale M single-seaters. To date, 120 Rafales have been ordered for both services, and 34 have been delivered.
The Air Force order covers a total of 82 aircraft (44 single-seaters and 38 two-seaters) with an additional 38 Rafale Ms – all single-seaters – for the Navy. Under current plans, production is to continue until 2023.
Five years after the French Navy received its first aircraft, Rafale ushers the French Air Force into the era of network-centric warfare, thanks to its unique capabilities in terms of data fusion, tactical connectivity, passive target detection and weapons load. “You can talk about fourth-generation or fifth-generation aircraft all you want, but what really matters is that Rafale is one full generation ahead of all other aircraft,” says Major General (armament corps) Patrick Dufour, Rafale program director at the French defence procurement agency, Delegation Générale pour l’Armement (DGA). “It can perform any mission, anywhere, and that’s what counts.”
In fact, the French Air Force considers that two Rafales will provide commanders with the same mission capabilities as a formation of four Mirage 2000D attack aircraft escorted by two Mirage 2000-5F air superiority fighters. In this sense, says Dufour, it is a true force multiplier.
The “Provence” squadron’s pilots, who spent about two years working up on the Rafale at the operational conversion unit in Mont de Marsan, have logged an average of 120 to 130 flight hours on the aircraft.
“The most noticeable difference compared to other aircraft is that Rafale is a flying computer. It manages its own flight parameters, leaving its pilot free to concentrate on the tactical mission,” says Capt. Nicolas Lyautey, one of the first pilots of n° 1/7 “Provence” squadron to convert to the Rafale. He previously flew Jaguar fighter-bombers, comparable to Rafale in terms of size and weight but clearly outclassed in terms of capabilities. He went solo on the Rafale after only four flights with an instructor, and says that the aircraft is so simple to operate that pilots can undertake their first operational missions after about 50 flight hours.
The Rafale’s central computer monitors all flight, engine and system parameters as background tasks, and they are only brought up on the cockpit’s three LCD screens or head-up display when a decision or an input is required from the pilot. This avoids information overload, reduces workload and creates an uncluttered environment in which aircrew can concentrate exclusively on flying the mission.
“Using the autopilot, auto-throttle and navigation aids, the aircraft can fly a complete high-speed mission at an altitude of 200 feet above sea level without any intervention by its pilot,” says Jean-Marc Gasparini, deputy Rafale program manager for Dassault Aviation.
One of the more challenging aspects of Rafale operations is how to fully exploit its capabilities, and especially its range of passive sensors. Pilots, for example, can use its TV/thermal imaging observation system (dubbed Optronique Secteur Frontal, and similar in principle to infrared scan and track) to visually identify other aircraft at ranges of more than 50 kilometres (approx. 30 nautical miles), and transmit this and other tactical data to other aircraft using their MIDS datalink.
Another unique capability, according to Col. François Moussez, the French Air force’s Rafale program officer is that it can fire missiles at targets detected and designated by its integrated Spectra countermeasures suite, again without any need for active transmissions that can give away its position.
Remarkably, Rafale will continue to offer capabilities in advance of its competitors thanks to an upgrade policy adopted by the French defence ministry. This ensures that in-service aircraft are upgraded as new capabilities are cleared, so that the entire fleet is always maintained at the latest available standard.
The first Rafales to enter Navy service were configured to the F1 standard, optimised for air-to-air operations. The F2 standard is networked-enabled and adds air-to-ground capabilities, allowing Rafale to fire Scalp cruise missiles, made by MBDA, as well as AASM precision-guided bombs made by Sagem Défense & Securité.
Dassault is now working to finalize the improved F3 standard, which will be available from June 2008 and will add additional weapons, including the ASMPA nuclear stand-off missile, the AM-39 Exocet anti-ship missile and the Thales Reco NG reconnaissance pod. All navy and air force aircraft already in service will be retrofitted to F3 standard by uploading a new software package, which will become standard fit for all subsequent production aircraft.
Further improvements are planned as part of the program’s “R&D feeding policy,” although not all have been approved or funded to date. These will ultimately include uprated Snecma M-88 engines each delivering 9 tonnes of thrust (compared to today’s 7.5 tonnes), a new radar with advanced electronically-scanned antenna replacing the current RBE-2 radar with shaped-beam antenna, a new missile warning receiver, an improved Front Sector Optronics system and, beginning in 2012, the Meteor beyond-visual range missile being developed by a European industry team led by MBDA. If approved, these improvements will become standard beginning with the 120th production aircraft, says DGA’s Dufour.
Despite this apparent complexity, Rafale was designed to operate with bare-bones support, and for instance has entirely done away with scheduled maintenance – a premiere for an advanced combat aircraft. Thanks to its permanent auto-testing processing and real-time monitoring airframe fatigue by the aircraft’s own computer, maintenance operations depend on the real condition of individual components. Furthermore, all operational and maintenance paperwork is stored in a single computer database, allowing detailed monitoring of aircraft condition by maintenance crews as well as outside contractors.
“Our design objective was to reduce maintenance man-hours per flight hours by 23% compared to the Mirage 2000,” says Col Moussez, “and on initial experience we in fact achieved better than 25%.”
French officials are also at pains to stress that Rafale, despite its quantum leap in capabilities, remains much more affordable than competing aircraft. DGA’s Dufour says that the total cost of the 294-aircraft program, including development, pre-production, production and integrated logistical support, amounts to 33,273 million euros (inclusive of value-added tax) at 2003 prices. This is an increase of just 4.18 percent, or 1,336 million euros, over the projected cost in 1988, when the original contract was signed. Competing combat aircraft cost at least one-third more, reinforcing Dassault’s belief that the Rafale will eventually score highly on the export market.
-ends-
regards
arthurothe first rafale M F2, the M11, was delivered to the french navy a few months ago. The F2 who reached its IOC last month in the french air force, is a true multirole aircraft. It has a stong AtG package, new passive sensors, and is networck centric warfare ready. The first delivery of the rafale M F3 ( which will add nukes, recce, antiship mission and enhanced EW) is schedulded in 2008. All the previous rafale M, C and B will be modenized to this new standart.
AESA and OSFmk2 funding are know secured in the “rafale roadmap” reaveled the 27th of june. though nothing is sure for the M88-3 for the moment. AESA radar could come into production in 2010, directly in the F3 tranche.
arthurothe herald tribune is printed in paris I think. (but I am not absolutely sure). But it is a very serious international newspaper. When there are problems in a programme they can be very severe. I remember it was the case a few years ago with the CDG. So I believe it is a reliable source. Note that the journalist is not french.
arthurohello every one.
rafale should be easier to sell since it is operational according to this article.
sealordlawrence: you should make a differnce between an open competition and a direct negociation with another country with politicals trade off.
Rafale, the French fighter, scrambles for export orders
By Christina Mackenzie
International Herald Tribune
Published: July 16, 2006 Paris
Riddle: Which combat aircraft outperforms its competitors in dogfights, is frequently classed first on technical merit in international tenders, is capable of covering a broad spectrum of air missions and is competitively priced, but has yet to win a single export order from a foreign air force? Answer: the Rafale, the French fighter developed and manufactured by Dassault Aviation.
In development since the mid-1980s and in French naval carrier-based service since 2004, Rafale is a so-called fourth-generation fighter, a sophisticated multirole jet with advanced avionics and weapons systems, but less able to avoid radar detection than “fifth generation” stealth fighters like the Lockheed-Martin F-22 Raptor or the U.S.-European F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.
Competitors include the U.S.-made F- 15 Eagle, in service in various versions since the 1970s, the F-16 Fighting Falcon and F-18E/F Super Hornet, the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Swedish-built JAS-39 Gripen, marketed in collaboration with BAE Systems of Britain.
Dassault and the French Ministry of Defense hope that exports may now take off after Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin declared operational a first French air force squadron of 20 Rafales on June 27.
“It’s almost impossible to sell a combat aircraft not operational in its own air force,” Gérard David, head of communications for Dassault said during an interview by telephone. “The doors are now open to Rafale’s export career.”
Within the French military, the Rafale eventually would replace existing air force and naval fighters and fighter- bombers, including the Mirage IV, F1 and 2000; the Jaguar; Crusader; Etendard IV and Super-Etendard.
“This is going to reduce our operating costs tremendously through rationalization of maintenance,” said General Patrick Dufour, director of the Rafale program at the Délégation Générale de l’Armement, France’s defense procurement agency.
Colonel François Moussez, a pilot who has flown 150 hours on the Rafale, said that two could do the work of six existing air superiority/defense and air-to-surface attack jets. “With the Rafale,” he said, “we can do simultaneous multimission management: air-to-air, air-to- ground, reconnaissance at the same time.”
Moussez said that in dogfight exercises, the Rafale had outflown F-15, F-16 and F-18 opponents, and in technical and performance evaluations “we have systematically won against the F-15 and the Eurofighter Typhoon.”
Yet it lost to the F-15 in competitions to sell to South Korea and Singapore. Moussez said it was outflanked in the former case on political grounds and in the latter case on costs, noting that the dollar had depreciated 30 percent over the period of the Singapore competition.
In competitions to sell combat aircraft, “the principal criterion is political. It has little to do with aircraft performance,” Moussez said.
Richard Aboulafia, an aerospace analyst with Teal Group in Fairfax, Virginia, also says that politics play a major role in fighter procurement. “Aggressive U.S. foreign policy” was a primary cause of export wins by U.S. military jets, he said during an interview by telephone.
Bob Kemp, director of sales for the Gripen, was not so sure. “There is no doubt a political factor,” he said during an interview. But “the first thing is, the aircraft must be able to do the job, and the second is financial.”
The Gripen, in operation with the Swedish Air Force since 1997, has been sold or leased to three countries and is quietly adding more orders, partly because it is “half the price of our competitors,” Kemp said.
Pricing combat aircraft is notoriously complex, with deals often involving industrial offsets and seldom reflecting full aircraft development costs. While Dufour put the average cost of a Rafale at €50 million, or $64 million, and the Typhoon – a collaboration grouping Italy, Germany, Spain and Britain – at about £65 million, or $120 million, Kemp said both aircraft had been offered to Singapore and South Korea at about $95 million each, compared with a basic price tag of $45 million to $50 million for the Gripen.
Combat aircraft technology “costs what it weighs,” Kemp said. “The Typhoon is basically twice the weight of the Gripen – and costs twice as much.”
The Typhoon, although lacking air-to- ground capacity in its current version, already has one export customer. Austria signed for 18 aircraft in August 2003 and Britain has signed a preliminary agreement with Saudi Arabia to supply at least 24 Typhoons from the British production run of 89 aircraft, although no final deal has been sealed.
Meanwhile Gripen has sold 28 aircraft to South Africa, the first of which left Sweden by ship in early July for the Overburg test flight center near Cape Town. Hungary has signed a lease and purchase agreement with Sweden for 14 aircraft, of which the first five were handed over in March. And the Czech Republic has leased 14 aircraft, all of which have been delivered. Norway and Denmark have also requested information on the Gripen from Saab, its manufacturer.
French procurement officials, comparing the sales prospects of the Gripen and Rafale, said the Gripen was designed for a different type of mission. The Rafale, a twin-engine aircraft with a maximum takeoff weight of 24.5 tons, can carry 9.5 tons of weapons slung under its wings, while the single-engine Gripen, with a maximum takeoff weight of 14 tons, carries only 5 tons of weapons.
Kemp agrees. Buyers of the heavier fighters “pay for longer range and heavier weapons loads,” he said, fitting them for a strategic defense role that some air forces may find less relevant than it was at the height of the cold war.
Still, by 2030, many countries will need to renew their combat aircraft fleets including some, like India and Japan, that may face significant strategic challenges. Saudi Arabia may finalize its Typhoon deal at the Farnborough Airshow, and analysts say other likely customers in the near future include Morocco and Brazil.
Excluding the United States, Russia and China, the open export market is estimated by analysts at around 3,000 aircraft. France traditionally holds between 10 percent to 15 percent of this market. Based on political preferences and past performance, France could hope to export about 300 Rafales, analysts say.
regards.
arthurook, I admit it’s maybe not a “professional” video, but it doesn’t change my opinion: it’s the best one i ever seen. A very good job indeed.
regards.
it’s true that the auto radio trick is definitely not official/professional 🙂 !
arthurohi kovy,
I think ( but i’m not absolutely sure) that this perticular video is a professional one.
-first it is a kind of advertisement to enroll in the french airforce, so it is an official video.
-second, if you look the number of aircrafts involved in this film, 4 mirage f1, pumas and transals (and what they do together) ,it’s almost impossible that this video is turned by amateurs.
-third, the quality of the video make me think that it is shot with professional cameras.
-the assemblage of the video is also professional.
arthurohi!
if you are intrested in very good mirage F1 videos, I have some for you.
http://www.patricksaviation.com/aviation_videos/238/Le_Mirage_Du_Tchad.
I have downloaded tens of military aircrafts videos, but this one is far and away the BEST I ever seen. this video is certainly a professional one due to its quality. It’s quite big to download but it worths waiting!!!
enjoy! 🙂
arthurothis is a comment from an HAF pilot ( of mirage 2000). He clearly says that an f16 cannot outmanoueuvre a Mirage 2000 due to its better instantenaous turn rate:
I found this on F-16.net
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-1872-start-45.html
“Would you agree with these statements of a former HAF fighter pilot?
<>
This true.
>>With good pilots on both sides, they are probably equal in dogfight>>
This is wrong. A good pilot in an M2K will kill a good pilot in an F-16 9 out of 10 times (1 provided for launch failure).
I served in an M2K fighter squadron in HAF. We analyzed tactics and combat scores against HAF F-16 squadrons all the time.
The M2Ks higher INSTANTANEOUS turn rate gives it an advantage during the first pass. The F-16 cannot outturn the Mirage. It has to climb in hopes of avoiding the lock. A good M2K pilot will end it right there (the Magic 2 is a better IR weapon than the AIM-9L/M).
A rookie in the M2K, however, will probably lose the F-16’s climb. The more powerful viper will escape and will then gain the advantage because of 1) Altitude 2) Higher SUSTAINABLE turn rate.
As for turn rates, altitude differences are purely theoretical and in practice make no difference EXCEPT for sea level manuevers where the more powerful Viper starts gaining the advantage.
Would you agree with the statement that F-16 is a better choice for multi role missions than Mirage 2000 ?
Absolutely. The M2K is a multi-role fighter also, but its performance varies greatly among roles – whereas the Viper performs almost all missions at a very satisfactory level.
HAF M2Ks are specialized. 331’s (where I served) primary role is now TASMO (naval strike with AM-39 Exocet) and 332’s primary role will become Deep Strike (with SCALP EG). CAP & Air Supremacy are their secondary roles.
The F-16 sqdns OTOH undertake a number of roles such as SEAD, CAP, CAS, and numerous specialized strike missions (enemy AFBs, enemy C&C centers etc). The Viper is a much more volatile weapons system”
I read in “air et cosmos” that a rafale has a better instantaneous turn rate ( 280° per second in a air to air configuration) AND a better sustained turn rate than a mirage 2000. on dassault aviation website there is video which features the rafale demo with the comment of a test pilot which says that the F-16 or a mirage 2000 has no chance against the rafale in a dogfigth.
I Also found on this forum in a F-16 vs rafale thread. This is an extract:
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-77-start-0.html
“This is a tough call, mainly because the 2 fighters have a great deal alike. I’d have to say that Lieven summed it up pretty well.
In that particular exercise, one Rafale took down 2 Falcons. Now, that would surely say something important, right? Maybe. Everyone on this board knows that its the training of the pilots that’s important, and since we don’t know who was the better trained pilot, it’s hard to tell.”
arthuroJohncurry,
yes a rafale and a m2k can do approximatevly the same missions just like a F35 can achieve roughtly the same mission of a F16. BUT a rafale offers a greater survability in comparison with a M2k (stealthiness, electronic warfare….).
secondly, the capacities of the M2K are at their best know, whearas the capacities of the rafale (which are already better), are going to increase (AESA, FSO next gen, meteor…). Buying Rafale instead of M2k is a sensible choice since the ADA will increase its capacities during its long operatinal life.
arthuroThe Rafale is cheaper to run, at least in terms of fuel consumption.
In Air Fan number 319 of june 2005 p54 column of the left, Thomas Picot, a pilote of rafale F1(and former M2k pilot) is delighted with the low level of consumtion of the two M88-2 who consume 12kg/minute wheras a single M53 consumes 17 kg/minute when the engines are turning waiting for take of.
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