F-18RNIn the absence of a Super Hornet purchase, I could live with an F-35C purchase. I imagine as others have speculated that the order would be split in half, Bs for the RAF and Cs for the Navy. I’m curious about something, how much commonality is there between the three different types of F-35? Also if the F-35B could make rolling take offs from a carrier, could the A or C and if so what impact would that have on their range/payload?
F-18RNon this subject. i’ve never got on with calling the f35 Lightning II. is it generally accepted that when 😀 the f35 is inducted into uk service it will just be called Lightning?
Tha RAF can call their F-35s if or when they get them what they want, but the Navy will probably call its Super Hornets when they get them Super Hornet F/A-2s :D.
F-18RNWhen I did those profile views I would have really have liked to make them more like the Squadron Prints that you can buy but I think thats a bit beyond me. That said I hope everyone liked the ones I did.
On the subject of designations, I made a mistake, I meant to put F/A-1 instead of F/A-2 I think I was thinking about the Sea Harrier F/A-2 when I wrote the captions. As for the mark or mk, I think thats optional. For every time I’ve seen reference to a Tornado GR mk 4, I’ve seen a reference to a Tornado GR-4.
F-18RNI thought it might be an idea to give people a visual idea of what a Super Hornet in Royal Navy colours might look like. Please forgive the simplicity of the images.
F-18RNTango III posted another article about the training of 12 RAF/RN pilots in the US, over on the Navies News thread. This latest one comes from the Portsmouth News, and interestingly, it says the pilots are going to train with the US Marine Corps. If you look back at the original report from Janes, it mentions the fact that as well as flying Hornets and Super Hornets, the UK pilots will also fly the Marines’ AV-8B Harriers. These pilots will be qualified and experienced carrier pilots by 2012, yet the first CVF isn’t due to be delivered until 2016. Would a CATOBAR qualification still be valid after four years?
Here’s a speculative theory: the SDSR will postpone the decision on ordering F-35Bs, a decision on which is apparently due next year, for at least 5 and maybe 10 years, so that (a) the UK’s public finances can be sorted out, and (b) the F-35 programme can be sorted out. As an interim measure, the UK will purchase a number of ex-USMC AV-8Bs – the ones with a radar and the ability to fire AMRAAMs (this is the model of Harrier operated by Spain and Italy). The USMC say their AV-8Bs can last at least until 2025. Maybe one of the objectives of the group of pilots going to the US is to check out these aircraft?
Hopefully not going too far off topic but your reference to USMC AV8Bs has got me thinking, what if the P-1154 Harrier been built? Would the USMC have taken the aircraft (be it single-seat RAF of two-seat RN) or in the same way that they took the actual Harrier and if they did I wonder how this would have affected their purchase of the F/A-18A-D as well as their future needs?
F-18RNTake this with a pinch of salt due to the source , and indeed it may not say anything new but this thread and the one over in Modern Military Aviation on the F35b being replaced by the Super Hornet may be academic:
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/838576-budget-cuts-could-sink-new-aircraft-carriers
F-18RNInteresting photoshop of QE at Rosyth as if it gives a nice scale comparison to the Invincible class.
Certainly a tight fit, then again I always feel that choosing Rosyth was a political choice to keep Gordon Brown happy. Personally I feel Harland and Wolff was the better build site, with a floodable basin big enough for a Nimitz class carrier let alone CVF plus Sampson and Goliath.
Prince of Wales actually as evidenced by the P on the flight deck.
F-18RNThanks for replying to my post Jonesy but what about the second part of my point?
There is nothing really constructive I can reply with to that question!. The answer, superficially, is ‘not very much’ though I would have to check how much she time was actually in refit during that period. The situation is diametrically opposed to where we are now though….that was a capability winding down against a backdrop of much higher squadron numbers.
Like I said we had the structure developed then to have a seperate Fleet Air Arm and, for a residual period anyway, to have adequate RAF and RN resources ‘independent’ of each other. That situation doesnt exist now. We NEED squadrons to be more flexible than that because we simply dont have the spare capacity to have strike squadrons sat on a base doing ‘nothing’ anymore.
I put together the attached spreadsheet which illustrates how long the fixed wing group spent ashore during the 70s. Its not as exhaustive as it could be and one or two of the dates are probaly out by a day or two, but it should give people some idea of the time.
F-18RNBut what happened in the 60s when the RN had as many as four or even five carriers but at least one was in refit/reserve, what did the squadrons of the carrier not at sea do then?
We could afford to have dedicated Fleet Air Arm squadrons then though. Plus, as you detail, we had several decks to cycle them between. Of the two CVF’s we will, pretty much, only have one out at a time. Today we dont have enough aircraft to have a frontline squadron and an enlarged OCU/2nd line sqdn’s worth of aircraft sitting idle or doing circuits when we can have them actually on operations doing the job we bought them to do.
Thanks for replying to my post Jonesy but what about the second part of my point?
And speaking of Ark Royal, in the 70s after Eagle’s demise and Hermes ‘going commando’, what did her Phantoms, Bucaneers and Gannets do when she was in refit?
F-18RNOf course this CAN be done with CATOBAR squadrons. The problem is though of what you do with the other front line squadron while it isnt embarked. The pilots have to undergo continuation training to keep their deck quals up so they cant go on 3-6 month shore-based deployments, with the light blue, otherwise they wont be available to rapid-deploy to the carrier. So you have 60-70% of the Fleet Air Arm sat at the expensively newly expanded RNAS Yeovilton doing circuits, weapons training and waiting for a passing CATOBAR carrier deck to do some deck quals on!.
But what happened in the 60s when the RN had as many as four or even five carriers but at least one was in refit/reserve, what did the squadrons of the carrier not at sea do then? I imagine, and perhaps someone could correct me if I’m wrong, but I guess they spent their time as you said above doing circuits, weapons training and practicing their flight deck activities on passing CTOL carriers as well as on dummy decks ashore such as at RAE Bedford. Think about all those times HMS Ark Royal allegedly spent in dry dock undergoing repairs and maintenance. Her squadrons must have done something to while away the time. And speaking of Ark Royal, in the 70s after Eagle’s demise and Hermes ‘going commando’, what did her Phantoms, Bucaneers and Gannets do when she was in refit?
F-18RNI’ve always been fascinated by the Fleet Air Arm in the 1970s. Flying an F-4K with 892sqn in Ark Royal seems like it would have been a hell of a ride.
What Phaid said 🙂 in a career that possibly included flying Sea Vixens, Scimitars and Bucaneers. I just love the Navy’s post war carriers particularly between the early 60s and late 70s. Flying Lightning F6s with 74 squadron RAF in the late 60s/early 70s would also appeal as I love that version of the Lightning in that time period with its natural metal finish. As for my choice of squadron well 74’s involvement with the Lightning goes back to the very beginning of the Lightning.
F-18RNWhile I get your point Sens do you know if the MoD can get a meaningful price for F-35B from LM and F/A-18 from Boeing in time to make a decision as part of the SDSR or is all of this thread a bit of hot air as the MoD has about as much information as we all do (I can imagine some round table discussions at the MoD where they are all on the net googling Wikipedia to get a price or read the various blogs to see someone has the answer 🙂 )
Hey don’t knock it. Thats how this country has been run for the last 60+ years (well apart from ther Google and Wikipedia bit).:D
F-18RNDid anyone else pick this up? It contains a cutaway poster of the CVF.
http://content.yudu.com/A1ob8a/navynewsjul10/resources/index.htm?referrerUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.navynews.co.uk%2Fnews%2F851-chuting-stars-over-gibraltar.aspx I’m annoyed that I missed it. I wonder if they could do a similar cuataway for CVA-01?
F-18RNThat F-35 price isn’t flyaway price. I don’t know what it is, but it’s a damn sight more than any sane person can imagine to be the flyaway price of any variant of F-35.
Comparisons of military aircraft prices are bedevilled by confusion between flyaway (the bare aircraft, physically complete but with no ancillary equipment, no spares, no support, ignoring all fixed costs), average unit cost including development & other fixed costs, system price (i.e. including ancillary equipment, training, spares, support . . . and maybe weapons, base improvements, etc.), lifetime (including operating costs over the expected life of the aircraft), etc., etc.
For the love of all that’s holy, don’t post a price comparison unless you understand what the prices are which you’re comparing, & know they’re on the same basis!
Apologies for taking Wikipedia at face value and not inserting some provisos. I accept that these are raw figures which do not take into account changes in inflation or exchange rates over time, nevertheless it serves as a good marker to work from. After going over the net I found this article over at Aviation Week from June this year:
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=aerospacedaily&id=news/asd/2010/06/03/01.xml&headline=Pentagon%20Recertifies%20JSF,%20Cost%20Increases. Paragraph 3 gives the fly away cost of the F-35 at $133 million per plane.
[PHP]TYPE NO. UNIT COST($) UNIT COST(£) TOTAL COST($) TOTAL COST(£)
F/A-18E/F: 46 60,300,000 37,687,500 2,773,800,000 1,733,625,000
E/A-18G: 22 73,000,000 45,625,000 1,460,000,000 912,500,000
F-35B/D?: 68 133,000,000 83,000,000 6,118,000,000 3,823,750,000[/PHP] Even based on this the Treasury would save £1,177,625,000 (excluding higher manning, construction and maintenance costs of a CATOBAR OR STOBAR carrier).
By the way I just came across this book on Amazon which might be interesting is someone has the time: http://www.amazon.co.uk/reader/083303667X?_encoding=UTF8&ref_=sib_dp_pt#reader_083303667X.
F-18RNMy assumption of 2 squadrons is based on the fact that there are currently two frontline squadrons 800 & 801. I suppose instead of my idea that whichever squadron is ashore send a flight of its aircraft to whichever carrier is in commission in an emergency, could be replaced with dipping into the attrition spares, or ordering enough F/A-18s for 3 frontline squadrons instead of two (809 anyone?) and for it to be assigned not to either carrier but to be kept as a reserve ‘surge’ squadron. As for inflation, whilst the amount of savings may not be as considerable as I have postulated, I still imagine they will be tangible. Besides would the person selling this plan to the Treasury be above undeplaying the costs, look at the Olympics? And as I briefly touched on at the end of my post, its not just money, the ability to be able to fully cross-operate with the French and US navies for the first time since December 1978 and to embark other aircraft types such as the Growler and as AWACS, the Hawkeye, must also be another factor to consider. And, if the carriers outlast their initial airgroup, which is what is planned, and the next generation aircraft don’t require catapults and arrestor wires, it’ll be far easier and cheaper to pull them out and put a ski jump on than vice a versa.
As a side note, after reading Bager’s last post regarding the size of the RAF’s fast jet force, if the FAA goes down the Super Hornet route, what will be the effect on the RAF’s F-35 purchase?
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