jawadFailed test and rocketing costs: Army says no to Brahmos missile
By Amitav Ranjan
New Delhi : The recent failure of the 290-km-range Brahmos missile to hit a pre-defined target and the high over-run in its production cost has put a question mark over fresh orders for 240 of these missiles from the Indian Army.
Though an RFP (Request For Proposal) for equipping two regiments with this missile was placed with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) mid-January, it’s learnt that Army chief General Deepak Kapoor has indicated he would not opt for its purchase unless the missile proved its capability and was available at a reasonable price.
“We do not plan to move the proposal to the Cabinet Committee on Security. Let DRDO explain the shortcomings,” Army officials told The Sunday Express, adding that both the Army and the Defence Ministry were opposed to the cost over-run and what DRDO claims to be an “advanced” seeker.
The Army, sources said, is bound by directions of the Defence Acquisition Council which, at the time of placing the first purchase order for 66 missiles in 2006, had said that subsequent regiments would have to be armed with SCAN or “multi-spectral seeker” — a system that provides a video feed to the missile control centre to ensure precision in guidance.
This would help latch the missile on to a specific target hidden in clusters of buildings unlike the present radar technology where the target has to be in isolation or else the missile can deviate to an adjacent body that provides higher radar reflection.
“That is why the present seeker has proved to be adequate for the Indian Navy as two objects are far removed from each other at sea,” sources said. Brahmos is primarily an anti-ship missile that can be launched either in a vertical or inclined position with the capability of covering targets over a 360-degree horizon.
A demonstration to the Army of Brahmos hitting a specific target failed on January 20. The DRDO first claimed success but had to backtrack when General Kapoor insisted on visiting the target site and found that the missile had overshot by a kilometre. :diablo:
“The missile performance was absolutely normal till the last phase but the missile missed the target though it maintained direction,” Brahmos Aerospace Corporation Director Sivathanu Pillai admitted later. The next test is scheduled for February 10.
Incidentally, a test fire using a vertical launch instead of the usual inclined position from battleship INS Ranvir on January 15 also missed its target, DRDO sources said. Beyond the technology glitch, the DRDO would also have to explain the costs. The Indo-Russian joint venture is now quoting Rs 8,500 crore (October 2008 prices) for arming two regiments compared to Rs 3,000 crore in 2006.
The DRDO says that the cost escalation is due to the new price of Rs 27 crore being asked by the Russians for each missile compared to Rs 13 crore earlier. The Indo-Russian joint venture was formed between DRDO and the Federal State Unitary Enterprise NPO Mashinostroyenia of Russia with the intent to indigenize here. But so far, 80 percent — mainly the liquid ramjet engine and the seeker — are imported in knock-down condition to be reassembled by the Russians.
jawad(1000) zero CEP
Failed test and rocketing costs: Army says no to Brahmos missile
“We do not plan to move the proposal to the Cabinet Committee on Security. Let DRDO explain the shortcomings,” Army officials told The Sunday Express, adding that both the Army and the Defence Ministry were opposed to the cost over-run and what DRDO claims to be an “advanced” seeker.
A demonstration to the Army of Brahmos hitting a specific target failed on January 20. The DRDO first claimed success but had to backtrack when General Kapoor insisted on visiting the target site and found that the missile had overshot by a kilometre. :diablo:
Incidentally, a test fire using a vertical launch instead of the usual inclined position from battleship INS Ranvir on January 15 also missed its target, DRDO sources said. Beyond the technology glitch, the DRDO would also have to explain the costs. The Indo-Russian joint venture is now quoting Rs 8,500 crore (October 2008 prices) for arming two regiments compared to Rs 3,000 crore in 2006.
The DRDO says that the cost escalation is due to the new price of Rs 27 crore being asked by the Russians for each missile compared to Rs 13 crore earlier. The Indo-Russian joint venture was formed between DRDO and the Federal State Unitary Enterprise NPO Mashinostroyenia of Russia with the intent to indigenize here. But so far, 80 percent — mainly the liquid ramjet engine and the seeker — are imported in knock-down condition to be reassembled by the Russians.
jawadLook like Raand opps sorry Raad[pak] to me
yep change the shape of MUPSOW and air intake and controls and stretch the airframe and you will have Raad ALCM 😀
jawadA picture.. Did I get that from you Sean?
EDIT: I see Tinwing posted it originally.
Is LRAAM ramjet BVRAAM missile IR guided:confused:
jawadAlso, where the Saudi Skyflash ever upgraded?
24 Tornado ADV and 48 Tornado IDS Fighter attack aircraft and 560 Skyfllash BVRAAM during the 1989-1991 For Tornado ADV combat aircraft as Part of $7 b ‘Al Yamamah-1’ deal and 48 Tornado IDS as a Part of Part of $17 b ‘Al Yamamah-2’ deal ( incl 6 reconnaissance version; originally 12 Tornado IDS and 36 Tornado ADV version planned, but ADV version changed to IDS after US allowed delivery F-15 C)
I cannot imagine KSA sending their air assets to Pakistan and displaying all over the country when war has yet not started.My second point is how many of you think that Pakistan air force will consider Tornado ADV armed with Skyfllash BVRAAM as aircraft to counter the Su-30MKIs??
At most it could be a INTEGRATED DYNAMICS PAKISTAN produced High speed turbojet powered Tornado T A R G E T UAV presenting the ROG aircraft being flown at low altitude and F-7 at higher altitude trying to intercept
jawadDear Jawad,
Is that a correction. So far reports I have read include ludicrous comment of Russian engines with “reverse engine technology”.
Also, as this is not PAF thread, I will not comment, but 36 J-10 are hardly likely to have any effect on Indian OrBat.
He did not make any correction to the original text. All it takes is a click on the link he posted and you can verify it. But then it would have been hard for you to bring in that one “ludicrous” report. Knowing how dorky news reporters are in Pakistan and India i think it’s no surprise you will come across such “gems”.
On a serious note that was the only one which talked about “reverse engine technology”. Can you please post other such “reports” (not the one by brecorder or the ones which copy pasted the same)?
Ironic isn’t it? You first said you won’t comment on it since it is not the right thread but in the very same sentence proceeded to do exactly that.
Although Farooq have given the answer to your question let me add some here
So far you news about J-10/FC-20 with Russian engines thrust vectoring engines and an active electronically scanned array radar make no relation with the thread J-10 better than both Mig-29 and Flanker??
jawadPakistan to introduce 36 China-made fighter planes
Written by http://www.daily.pk
Friday, 21 November 2008 11:28
Pakistan plans to introduce 36 China-made FC-20 (or Fighter-10 in China) fighter planes by 2010, Beijing-based Global Times reported, citing Pakistan’s air force chief of staff.
The current world economic crisis won’t affect the Pakistan air force’s major projects, the general said.
A plan was being discussed to introduce two squadrons of FC-20s, Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed was cited as saying, according to the report.
Pakstan’s air force picked the FC-20 from dozens of candidates as it adapted Russian engines with the most advanced thrust vectoring technology, the general said.
Pakistan will also set up a squadron of JF-17 “Thunder” fighters by the first quarter of 2009. The JF-17 was jointly developed by China and Pakistan, which will expand Pakistan’s air force’s maximum battle radius to 650 kilometers.
Pakistan also signed a deal with China to import four sets of airborne warning and control systems, according to the newspaper.
http://www.daily.pk/local/other-local/8227-pakistan-to-introduce-36-china-made-fighter-planes.html
jawadhttp://www.sinodefence.com/weapons/report/zhuhai_airshow_2008.asp
Military Aspects of the Air Show China 2008 Part 1
The biannual China International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition (also known as Zhuhai Air Show or Air Show China) was held in the southern city of Zhuhai between 4th and 9th November 2008. This is the 7th such airshow to be held by China since 1996. This year’s show featured the biggest line-up of Chinese-made civil and military aircraft, as well as aviation systems and conventional weapon systems developed by the Chinese aircraft industry. For the first time, the Chinese People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) has sent its aircraft in current service to participate in the event.
The 7th Zhuhai Air Show coincided with the recent merge of China’s two consortia of aircraft manufacturers – China Aviation Industry Corporation I (AVIC-I) and China Aviation Industry Corporation II (AVIC-II). Once a single entity, they were divided in 1999 in order to boost competition and as a consequence drive efficiency. However, the restructuring had not worked as expected and running the two separately also split resources and resulted in duplicates in investments. The newly merged China Aviation Industry Corporation (AVIC) has brought a wide range of aircraft designs, aviation systems, and conventional weapon systems to the show.
PLAAF Debut
Previously the PLAAF had shied away from the Zhuhai air show, largely due to the concern that its military secrets may be disclosed. In previous years’ shows, Chinese indigenous military aircraft were only displayed in forms of prototypes and demonstrators carrying manufacturer liveries. This year, the PLAAF sent a line-up of seven combat and support aircraft to participate in both static displays and flight demonstrations, providing a valuable opportunity to examine some of its latest inventory at a close range. PLAAF aircraft displayed this year include two two J-10 fighters, two J-8D fighters, a JH-7A fighter-bomber, a H-6 refuelling tanker, and a Y-8 turboprop transport aircraft. Additionally, the PLA Army Aviation Corps sent three helicopters: a Z-8 helicopter, a Z-9GA attack helicopter, a Mi-171 helicopter to the air show. The China Aviation Industry Corporation (AVIC) also displayed its L-15 advanced jet trainer and Z-11G attack helicopter.
Fighter Aircraft Technologies
This year for the first time general public was allowed to watch the PLAAF’s J-10 multirole fighter in both static display and flight demonstration. The aircraft, which entered service with the PLAAF in 2003, is likely to become available in the export market in the years to come. Pakistan has reportedly ordered 32~40 J-10 fighters and the deliver is expected to begin in 2009. Currently the aircraft is powered by a Russian AL-31FN turbofan, but China is developing an indigenous turbofan WS-10 to power future J-10 productions.
However, there were some important designs missing in this year’s air show. Previously it was reported that the Pakistani Air Force was going to send two of its Chengdu JF-17 (a.k.a. FC-1 in its Chinese designation) to the air show, but the plan was cancelled the last minute possibly due to security concerns. Instead, a FC-1 training simulator was displayed in the air show. Another absentee was the J-11B, which was said to be based on the Russian Su-27SK airframe but fitted with Chinese indigenous avionics and weapon suites. The aircraft has been developed by AVIC Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) since 2001.
China is known to have been developing its next-generation fighter aircraft since the late 1990s. So far no much detail regarding the programme has been disclosed, but some technologies potentially linked to the future Chinese fighter aircraft could still be found in this year’s air show. One example being the a ‘glass’ fighter cockpit developed by AVIC, featuring a panoramic display system that resembles that of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightening II.
Air-Launched Weapons
Air-to-air weapons displayed in this year’s Zhuhai air show included the PL-5E, PL-9 and TY-90 IR-homing short-range AAM, as well as the SD-10 active radar-homing medium-range AAM, all of which were developed by the Luoyang-based China Academy of Air-to-Air Missile. Historically China was behind Russian and Western countries in the precision strike weapon technology but it has been quickly catching up. The LeiTing-2 (LT-2) 500kg laser-guided bomb (LGB) and LeiShi-6 (LS-6) precision-guided glide bomb first revealed in 2006 return to the air show this year. Additionally, a new design known as LeiTing-3 (LT-3) features a combined laser/GPS/inertial guidance for capability to operate in all-weather conditions.
jawadChina to accelerate air force modenisation
By Siva Govindasamy
China is likely to accelerate the modernisation of its fighter fleet over the next decade, and is looking to induct additional indigenous aircraft and order new types from Russia.
Beijing’s Chengdu J-10 fighter was displayed publicly for the first time earlier this month at Airshow China 2008 in Zhuhai, where Chinese officials indicated that it would also develop new versions of the type. A B-model aircraft has already been proposed, with this to have a thrust-vectoring engine and an active electronically scanned array radar.
“The J-10 has been identified as the backbone of the Chinese air force. They will continue to increase the production rate and improve on the earlier version,” says one observer. China has never revealed how many J-10s have entered service since 2006, but industry sources speculate that more than 100 have been produced from an eventual requirement for around 300.
A naval version of the J-10 is also on the cards, with sources saying that China hopes to get its aircraft carrier programme up and running in the next decade. But with an indigenous naval fighter expected to take too long to develop, China is reportedly negotiating with Russia’s Rosoboronexport arms agency for an interim batch of 48 Sukhoi Su-33 fighters.
China has also shown interest in the Su-35, but could first place a significant order for Chengdu’s FC-1/JF-17 fighter, which was jointly developed with Pakistan. Concurrently, Beijing is pursing several highly secretive studies to develop a stealthy fifth-generation fighter, and is also reportedly developing a stealth bomber, various unmanned air vehicles and indigenous powerplants.
Meanwhile, the air force’s first cadre of eight pilots to graduate from the Chinese Flight Test Establishment finished their two-year course in mid-November, with each having received instruction on seven aircraft types and logged almost 1,000 sorties.
jawadPakistan to introduce 36 China-made fighter planes
Written by http://www.daily.pk
Friday, 21 November 2008 11:28
Pakistan plans to introduce 36 China-made FC-20 (or Fighter-10 in China) fighter planes by 2010, Beijing-based Global Times reported, citing Pakistan’s air force chief of staff.
The current world economic crisis won’t affect the Pakistan air force’s major projects, the general said.
A plan was being discussed to introduce two squadrons of FC-20s, Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed was cited as saying, according to the report.
Pakstan’s air force picked the FC-20 from dozens of candidates as it adapted Russian engines with the most advanced thrust vectoring technology, the general said.
Pakistan will also set up a squadron of JF-17 “Thunder” fighters by the first quarter of 2009. The JF-17 was jointly developed by China and Pakistan, which will expand Pakistan’s air force’s maximum battle radius to 650 kilometers.
Pakistan also signed a deal with China to import four sets of airborne warning and control systems, according to the newspaper.
http://www.daily.pk/local/other-loca…er-planes.html
jawadIndia – HARPOON Block II Missiles
WASHINGTON, September 9, 2008 – The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to India of HARPOON Block II Missiles as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $170 million.
The Government of India has requested a possible sale of 20 AGM-84L HARPOON Block II missiles; 4 ATM-84L HARPOON Block II Exercise missiles; containers; training devices; spare and repair parts; supply/technical support; support equipment; personnel training and training equipment; technical data and publications; U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics support services; and other related elements of logistics support The estimated cost is $170 million.
This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of an important partner and to strengthen the U.S.-India strategic relationship, which continues to be an important force for political stability, peace, and economic progress in South Asia.
India intends to use the HARPOON missiles to modernize its Air Force Anti-Surface Warfare mission capabilities and improve its naval operational flexibility. The missiles will assist the Indian Navy to develop and enhance standardization and operational ability with the United States. India will have no difficulty absorbing these missiles into its armed forces.
The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not affect the basic military balance in the region.
The prime contractor will be The Boeing Company of St. Louis, Missouri. There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale.
Implementation of this proposed sale will not require the assignment of any additional U.S. Government or contractor representatives to India permanently. There may be U.S. Government or contractor personnel in country on a temporary basis in conjunction with program technical and management oversight and support requirements.
There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.
This notice of a potential sale is required by law; it does not mean that the sale has been concluded
jawadHavent seen any figures for either radar coverage, for any chinese aew&c platform so far.
For that matter, these figures are hard to come by even for their western equivalents.
What about the radar KJ-200 radar size as compared to Erieye PS-890 frrom pictures available
coverage( can KJ-200 360deg coverage or it will have same limituon of Saab-2000 AEW&C
range/time on station etc of Y-8
jawadThe recent AFM says KJ-200
can anyone compare the radar KJ-200 radar with Erieye PS-890 i mean size and range/coverage( 240-300 deg??) of it (as it is based on a large aircraft as compared to Saab340 or Saab-2000that PAF will get)and no of solid state modules used in it etc
Space for aircontrolers and range/time on station etc as compared to Saab 2000 aew&c
jawadhttp://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008 9 6story_6-9-2008_pg1_6
“China, Sweden to provide spy planes to Pakistan: Air chief”
Saturday, September 06, 2008
LAHORE: China and Sweden will provide state-of-the-art surveillance aircraft to Pakistan, Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed said on Friday. According to Geo News, he said four AWACS aircraft from China and four SAAB-2000 aircraft from Sweden would reach Pakistan soon. Talks were also underway for the purchase of 30 to 40 FC-20 aircraft from China, he added.
[IMO, I’ll believe it when I see it.]
any confirmation about the type of AWACS PAF willget from china Y-8 AWACS rotating disk-like radar or KJ-200 with radar like that of Saab Erieye 2000 AEW&C ??
jawadNew AFM has PAF Chief interview in which he has outlined PAF fleet requirements for 2015 fleet. according to this interview By 2015, PAF will comprise 240 JF-17, 60 F-16’s, 40 FC-20’s (PAF version of J-10), 50 F-7PG’s, 4 SAAB Erieye, 4 ZDK-03 (PAF version of Y-8), 4 IL-78 Midas. FC-20 order should be confirmed in next 12 months or so, whilst final configuration is worked out. Current J-10 technology is not upto PAF requirements and as the platform natures, PAF hopes to include western equipment in the J-10, thereby signifying a different version from PLAAF J-10, which will be known as FC-20 in PAF service. FC-20 will not be required to have any conformal fuel tanks, as it has sufficient internal fuel capacity as well as AAR by Il-78 Midas tankers. Although AESA radar would be nice to have, there is no confirmation if this will be made available to PAF.
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