jawadThey asked media to comply during GHQ operation and limit the coverage, media did so, did they ask again this time initially? You cannot solely be pissed at media. This should have been part of SOP if it wasn’t already. It should have been part of it before GHQ raid, if it wasnt, then surely after that. There are fools still claiming there were no mistakes…let alone learning from them. As a member said earlier, time to be proactive, rather than passive.
Unfortunately, I don’t think that at this moment in time Pakistani armed forces have do have such plans in place to handle the media to ensure that no excessive reporting and information is provided during the operation. A mistake which needs to be corrected.
But at the same time media itself needs to be responsible too and shouldn’t try to telecast the military operation against terrorists like a hockey match just to get ahead of each other and say i reported it first. They need to act as maturely not as kids trying to compete for a plate of pie.
This is not the first time, i remember the red mosque operation in Islamabad when ARY NEWS was using the roof of a private house to actually live telecast the movement of troops around mosque and showed troops preparing and launching attack which allowed militants to prepare for attack in advance.
When military realized the situation they had to locate and stop the news team of ARY NEWS and result was ARY turning against them and from that moment on they started bashing army.
jawadOK.
That’s the trash taken out.
Fight your flame wars elsewhere, people.
Nationalistic fantasies are not “background”.
Back on-topic, please.
Thanks
GA
Thanks your sir, Appreciate the effort to keep this thread clean
India pays in full. Pakistan gets a subsidy. When the USA first provided F-16s & AH-1s to Pakistan in 1983, & Pakistan ordered P-3s in the late 1980s, it wasn’t willing to sell any weapons to India, & had blocked the sale of European aircraft with US engines.
I am not saying that US shouldn’t sell to India or why US is selling weapons to India as we both know that’s what Weapons manufacturers do to keep running their factories. My point was that US is not providing many Items to Pakistan because its feels it will upset India (like You said India got deep pockets) even if the item is required in limited numbers.
Pakistan paid for the Block 52+ from its own pocket though some part (I don’t remember the exact percentage but it was given by the Last Air chief Tanveer)of funding for the MLU is coming from USA.
One of the item is Gunship Helicopters, Pakistan wanted a dozen or so new AH-1W or AH-64 for Afghan border for a similar role in which USA and NATO uses its AH-64D & Tiger gunships along the afghan border but requests were denied and US provided 40 year old AH-1s at over $15 million each and they are such a big problem to keep operational that PA rejected batch of last 8 AH-1Fs.
Let me make it clear again that I wasn’t trying to compare the arms sales to two nations but US hesitation in providing essential weapons which can be key in operations in region like FATA.
Now back to main topic
It was expected that Naval Chief among others wont accept this as their mistake due to his close friendship with Mr 10% and he did rejected that it was a security laps (Yes infront of whole media).
Today, It looks like Pakistani Media especially news channels are taking over and started hours long programs covering details of operation as well as looking for loopholes in the security of the base and one of the Channel’s reported traveled via train which passes near by the base and showed how he can see he hangers and aircraft including P-3C etc.
They are questing each and almost every step which allowed that terrorists to get inside base and bashing the security planning against such attacks.
I sincerely hope that top leadership will wake up sooner then later and understand the fact that they need to be active then passive to prevent such attacks in future.
At the same time security forces are very pissed at the live coverage of the operation by the media as they say helped terrorist in avoiding the SSGN. They say that one time when Helicopter was used to place SSGN operators over the building terrorist were hiding media announced it as soon as this happened and element of surprise was lost and many of the terrorists were able to flee and took refuge in another building. After this media was forced further back from the base.
jawadOk new informations is suggesting that one P-3C Orion burnt out completely with with only the engines left while second one is considered beyond economical repair thus 2 P-3Cs have been written off, while 3rd P-3C got few gunfire rounds.
5 P-3C Orion were at the base and three of were upgraded and another 4 P-3C are currently in USA being upgraded
This means that almost half of the fleet (2 out of 5 in service) are history.
Security personnel who died included one officer Lt. Yasser Abbas, 3 firemen, 3 SSG personnel, 1 sailor and 2 personnel of Pakistan Rangers.
jawadSpeaking of which, PNS Alamgir, were is she?
Guess this whole thing blows the chances of getting pics of her.
Last i heard was it was in Oman for their last stop before coming to its new home, Pakistan. But with this kind of mess i find it little difficult
PNS Alamgir (F 260) has already made port calls in Bermuda (UK), Azores (Portugal), Cadiz (Spain), Turkish Naval Base ‘Golcuk ‘, Jeddah (Saudi Arabia) and Salalah (Oman). It was expected to reach Pakistan this month but so far no news.
Guess this whole thing blows the chances of getting pics of her.
looks like it, very unfortunate because i was really looking forward for seeing PNS Alamgir in Pakistan and hoping to get some pictures and additional information about possibility of upgrades to airdefence capability of ship.(Although with PN going for Chinese Type-054A frigates, they might not opt for upgradation due to high cost and old age of the ship)
jawadso the P3C orions were to track taliban submarines ? what about those with hawkeye packages ?
One of the things you should remember is that Pakistan navy is very active member of the Combined Task Force 150 and Combined Task Force 151 which is oversee the the anti piracy and anti terror operations and has commanded these Combined Task Forces multiple times. In fact it was first navy from our region to do so even though it lacked ships and aircrafts.
P-3C were offered to supplement these efforts, sign of goodwill from USA and bonus to US was P-8Is:D. These aircrafts are part of US efforts to build PN for such operations especially as many of these aircrafts are getting retired from USN. In similar fashion Pn is provided with PNS Alimgair which lacks airdefence capability but will be a good addition over Type-21 for PN to be used in support of Combined Task Force operations
jawadLets be clear that USA is not providing any arms which it considered can significantly effect the India and every time it provides something to Pakistan It offers India a much better version, i.e. F-16 block 52+ Vs F-16 Block 70 or 30 to 40 year old AH-1F vs AH-64D Block II or P-3C vs P-8I. One of the very reason F-16 deal was delayed so many times. In the end very limited number was agreed upon so that it doesn’t effect India in significant manner and still keep influence over PAF and allow PAF the much need PGM capability in FATA. If you are keeping in touch with the PAF developments than you will know that even at the highest level it is thought that F-16s are just a bonus till FC-20s becomes available to PAF. PAF have even scale downed the order to save cash for the FC-20s from China.
USA provided Vietnam era 30+ AH-1s many of which spend lots and lots of time on ground because of their age, high maintaince requirements and lack of spares.i remember that at one time there were only five AH-1s were operational and US denied request for 6 to 12 AH-64s on grounds that it will upset India.
A Replacement offer will be difficult in current situation for the USA but at the same time such an offer could very well be an icebreaker for both nations and would send a positive image that USA actually cares for Pakistan unlike these terrorist outfits and their supporters.
One of the issues is the ever increasing public perception that USA is actually siding India, thus demands from government to side more with China
Actually China is one great example, Its a non Muslim country, Still no one on Pakistan questions its crackdown over Muslim extremists/troublemakers, not even the hardliner Islamic parties .
Currently Army and Air force have little penetration as actions were taken as soon as such elements were detected but danger lies not in small fraction which may try to support the attacks but the larger majority which looks may see USA as invading force in case of any unilateral attack.
This is one of the reasons why US government is not going with an all out war of words because they know how much trouble it can create for already shaking relationship where trust levels are very low on both sides.
Regards,
jawadforget the politics, jawad, can you give us a final tally on aircraft damaged ?
2 orions + unidentified aircraft damaged or just 2 orions ?
So far its one completely destroyed and one partially damaged (It is yet to be determined if it is economical to repair it or not). Many claims of 3 P-3C and some helicopters were made but non of those have proven to be near reality.
jawadSEAL Team Six’s founder wrote a book called Red Cell, in which he recounted how he formed a SEAL unit to test the security of naval facilities to terrorist attacks. The book really made the point of how vulnerable these bases are.
His team would notify the base commander 24 hours in advance that they will be making a simulated attack, and even so they never failed to breach security. On one occasion they got on board a ballistic missile submarine, and on another they abducted an admiral’s wife out of her home. Red Cell was ultimately disbanded after embarassing the Navy too many times.
It’s important to understand that the Navy never figured out how to stop him. It’s almost impossible to secure all bases from skilled and audacious attack all the time. I think this is the beginning of a new wave of terrorist attack, now that the militants figured out this vulnerability and experienced success.
Very interesting and practical approach to evolve the security of these kind of facilities. This kind of arrangement can get Pakistan army/Navy/ Air force out of their comfort zones of traditional approach of security arrangements.
jawadso what ? if the planes have been lost in an anti-US attack, it is america’s responsibility to make good the losses ?
thanks jawad. I thought rangers were in the operation too ?
SSGN was conducing the operation and they were joined by the SSG earlier today.
Pak Marines were used to surround and contain the area in which terrorists were stopped.
Rangers were used to secure the areas which were cleared by SSGN and marines so they terrorist may not be able to run and hide into places which were already cleared.
jawadnow it is confirmed by pak navy that at least 2 P3C orions have been damaged and possibly completely destroyed. unconfirmed reports say that one US military personnel was killed and some chinese workers taken hostage.
operation is ongoing. luckily for pakistan, mehran also hosts a contingent of SSG troops.
These were Naval Special Services Group(SSGN)
jawadhere are some of key updates
PNS Mehran Under Terrorist Attacks: Updates
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jawadJf17s are only made in Pakistan and it is not possible for china to supply 50 in 6 months.
What they may be referring to is china providing 50 j10 on a priority basis (which they can as they a made in china) while also signing the jf17 trance 2 contract. Reporters mixed the 2 up.
This could very well be the case as most of local journalists don’t have any idea about the defence items.
In either case now we know that Blcok-II JF-17s will have improved but still Chinese avionics and FC-20 is on track contrary to the report on AFM
jawadPakistan and China to Strengthen Military Ties
By Bloomberg NewsPakistani Defense Minister Ahmad Mukhtar said in a May 18 interview in Beijing that his country was in talks to buy FC-20 jets from China and that teams led by Gilani and Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao had discussed boosting production of the jointly produced JF-17 fighter aircraft.
China to Fast-Track Jets for Pakistan
China agreed to provide 50 more JF-17 fighter jets to Pakistan on an “expedited” basis, a spokesman for the Pakistani Air Force said.”We’re getting the 50 jets, on top of the ones we already have. Something has been agreed in Beijing, so they’ll be expedited,” he said, declining to give further details. He also declined to discuss whether they would be the basic so-called Block I models, like the first batch, or an upgraded Block II version, which military aviation experts say could include radar-evading stealth technology—potentially giving Pakistan that capability for the first time.China and Pakistan are also discussing plans for Pakistan to buy China’s more advanced FC-20 fighter, also known as the J-10, Ahmad Mukhtar, Pakistan’s defense minister told reporters Wednesday.
Gilani to Meet Hu as Pakistan, China Strengthen Military Ties
Pakistani Defense Minister Ahmad Mukhtar said in a May 18 interview in Beijing that Pakistan was in talks to buy FC-20 jets from China and that teams led by Gilani and Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao had discussed boosting production of the jointly produced JF-17 fighter aircraft. The New York Times, citing Pakistan officials it didn’t name, said China would provide 50 JF-17 fighters immediately, paid for by China.
Pakistan has earmarked to spend on a new fleet of Chinese made submarines; these will go nicely with the two squadrons of Chinese J-10 fighters which Pakistan has also bought at a cost of $1.4 billion.
jawadI think the PAF has inducted ~25-30 JF-17s so far, equipping 2 squadrons. The most likely explanation is the negotiation for the next block of 50 aircraft, as stated by redgriffin.
Looks that way
with production of first batch of 42 scheduled to be complete at some time this year, it was expected that PAF would request federal government to move ahead and allow it to sign contract for second batch this year.
Dawn news
Fifty Thunder jets for Pakistan(6 hours ago) Today
The official said the war planes to be fully funded by China would help bolster Pakistan’s defence and add to tactical capability of its air force. – File Photo
BEIJING: China will immediately provide 50 JF-17 Thunder aircraft to Pakistan, an official said here on Wednesday.
“We will get these planes in weeks,” 😮 he said, adding that a formal agreement to that effect was likely to be signed on Thursday.
The official said Pakistan and China were already jointly producing the JF-17 aircraft, but these 50 planes would be equipped with more sophisticated avionics. He said the war planes to be fully funded by China would help bolster Pakistan’s defence and add to tactical capability of its air force.
APP adds: Ambassador to China Masood Ahmed Khan said China would provide over $400 million to Pakistan, including $100 million in soft credit and a grant of 70 million RMB, for the post-flood reconstruction and development projects.—Staff Reporter
There is No way JF-17s can be delivered in matter of days or weeks. It will take weeks to just to finalize the details and sign the contract
What’s the emergency?
Create sensational news to sell TV and Newspaper :diablo:
Respect Pak sovereignty, China tells US
Muhammad Saleh Zaafir
Thursday, May 19, 2011Sources disclosed that China had also agreed to provide Pakistan 50 new JF-17 Thunder multi-role fighter planes for its air force. The Block-58(:confused:) planes would be produced in Pakistan under a co-production agreement. It is likely that the production of the planes would start in June next year and till then China will complete the supply of 50 JF-17 planes for which an agreement was signed earlier.
The two countries are also in the process of discussing the supply of J-20 Stealth 😮 and Xiaolong/FC-1 multi-purpose light fighter aircraft to Pakistan. They are discussing the mode of payment and the number of planes to be provided to Pakistan, the sources said.
jawad
Pakistan Successfully Tests Hatf-VII Babar Cruise Missile
Pakistan has successfully tested the Hatf-VII Babar Land Attack Cruise Missile (LACM) today. Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) has announced that Hatf-VII Babar was test fired against the target at a range of 600 kilometers.Hatf-VII Babar Land Attack Cruise Missile (LACM) has a maximum range of 750 kilometers km and can carry both conventional and nuclear warhead. Babar Cruise Missile is designed with stealth requirements in mind and with the capability to fly at very low altitude to avoid detection by the enemy radars.
Hatf-VII Babar Land Attack Cruise Missile (LACM) uses the highly advance ‘Terrain Contour Matching’ (TERCOM) and ‘Digital Scene Matching & Area Co-relation’ (DSMAC) to achieve circular error probability (CEP) of only 3 meters, such pinpoint accuracy allow the Babur to be used in surgical strikes.
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Finally a Pakistanis are testing again 😎
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