jawadA Naval Babur kit is unheard of by now. If Harpoon is of unsafe distance, then why Pakistan went for it? Secondly, there is always a scope of modifying weapons. Why it cannot be done?
Pakistan did mention several times that it is developing a naval cruise missile. Almost after every test of Babur cruise missile, Pakistani authorities have clearly stated that they are also developing sea based and air launched versions of cruise missile. We know that air launched version has also been tested twice. So question what proof US has to say that wasn’t the Naval Babur? So far none
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Why Pakistan would not like to reverse engineer harpoon? Having a Air/Land launched cruise missile does not mean that there is no motive for modifying/reverse engineering a different class of missile.Let us see how the inspections go on.
Pakistan could have / not have modified Harpoon. To say that since it has Babur/RAAD and there is no need to modify Harpoons has absolutely no connection.
After this test Pakistan have now a working cruise missile (given the US reaction, it seems safe to assume that tests was a success and USA haven’t been able to come up with any evidence) and now they wont need to reverse engineer harpoon:diablo:
jawadPakistan said that they have been developing it on their own. Its very clear that it is not from China.
They have also said that it is not a modify Harpoon
Pak, US rift over missile modification
Islamabad denies allegation
Tanvir Siddiqi
Foreign Office spokesman in a statement issued here on Sunday said that Pakistan had not made any modification in the missiles under reference.
Pakistan’s ambassador to the US Husain Haqqani has also denied the report. He said the accusations are incorrect and based on wrong intelligence.
Oly proof USA has is that Its intelligence agencies detected on April 23 a suspicious missile test that appeared to indicate that Pakistan had a new offensive weapon.But this doesn’t indicate that it was Harpoon
jawadUSA have detected a test of land attack cruise missile which was not announced, so their intelligence is speculation that it might be a Modify Harpoon missile, Pakistan have rejected this charge and have clearly said that missile tested was of Pakistani design nor Harpoon and to prove that they are allowing the USA to conduct the inventory check of the Harpoons. This is illogical report as Pakistan is already using and developing different kind of cruise missiles with longer range for land attack. On the other hand PN considers the Harpoon a very Good Antiship missile and have ordered them for their submarines, ships and aircrafts.
jawadI have a reverse question. If Pakistan has babur and other kits, why does it needs US Harpoons?
Because Babue is LACM and Harpoon is antiship missile
jawadIf you were a general in the pakistani army and you had picked a fight with India once again, would you try to saturate indians air defense with lots of very expensive missiles or would you use old missiles that are past their use full ness in other ways?
I think its a good idea (economically speaking), it isnt to say that Pakistan does not have better missiles, it probably does but if you can have a few more guided land attack missiles to cause havoc on cheap targets why not?
U.S. Says Pakistan Made Changes to Missiles Sold for Defense
Published: August 29, 2009
Over the years, the United States has provided a total of 165 Harpoon missiles to Pakistan, including 37 of the older-model weapons that were delivered from 1985 to 1988, said Charles Taylor, a spokesman for the Defense Security Cooperation Agency.
I don’t think that such a small number would be of any significant help even if modified. Out of 37 many would have been used in testing also.
jawadCould they be talking about this news
Babar missile test-fired last Wednesday
By: Suhail Abdul Nasir | May 09, 2009ISLAMABAD – Pakistan conducted another successful test of Babar cruise missile last Wednesday.
A source in the Foreign Office disclosed the test was carried out without prior announcement, which was against the usual practice as President Asif Zardari was in Washington and was due to meet President Obama.
The source said Pakistan did not want to leave any negative impression on meeting keeping in view the missile test.
This is pertinent to mention that Pakistan always conducts the test with proper announcement and the ISPR too issues statement in this regard.
As regards ballistic missile tests, there exists an accord between Pakistan and India to exchange information prior to the tests and they both do the same, but in case of cruise missile test, there is no such agreement.
Pakistan conducted the test of Babar cruise missile last Wednesday
Pakistan conducted another successful test of Babar LACM last Wednesday . It is being said that Babur cruise missile was tested to 750km range with a payload of 500kg which means that range is increased by 50km and payload by 200kg. Babur Cruise Missile has a CEP of 3 meter allowing it to destroy enemy targets with pinpoint accuracy. The Babur or Hatf VII missile can carry conventional as well as non-conventional nuclear warheads. A source in the Foreign Office disclosed the test was carried out without prior announcement, which was against the usual practice as President Asif Zardari was in Washington and was due to meet President Obama.The source said Pakistan did not want to leave any negative impression on meeting keeping in view the missile test. As regards ballistic missile tests, there exists an accord between Pakistan and India to exchange information prior to the tests and they both do the same, but in case of cruise missile test, there is no such agreement. Development of the Hatf-VII/ Babur cruise missile started in mid 1990, in response to the reports of Indio-Russian cruise missile program Brahmos and the requirement to have multiple options for the delivery of nuclear warheads. Pakistan had conducted its first nuclear cold tests in early 1980s and started the development of longer range ballistic missile delivery system in late 1980. In July and August 1998 two US RGM/UGM-109 Tomahawk cruise missiles were recovered almost intact in Southern Pakistan, and may have been used for reverse engineering or to provide vital technologies for the Hatf-VII project. It is believed that the Hatf-VII Babur design and development programme was known as Project 828. First official announcement of a test flight was made in August 2005. The first test flight was ground launched, and was stated to have a maximum range of 500 km, this range was later increase to 700km. A longer range version which will have range of 1,000 km is also under development. An air launched version called Raad ALCM has also been tested with a range of 350Km. Third version is under development for Ship/ submarine launch and Agosta 90 submarines of the Khalid class and U-214 SSK (which will be manufactured in Pakistan under license) will be the launch platforms.
Pakistan Test-fires Babur Babur Hatf VII Cruise Missile
Dated 11/5/2009
As the country’s News Agency reported at the end of last week, on Wednesday Pakistan conducted a successful test-firing of its latest domestically manufactured cruise missile, known as Babur (or Babar, Hatf VII), exactly at the time President Asif Zardari was in Washington and due to meet US President Barack Obama.
A source in the Foreign Office said the test was carried out without prior announcement and that Islamabad did not want to leave any negative impression regarding the Washington meeting.
Designed by the National Engineering and Scientific Commission (NESCOM), the Pakistani scientific and research organisation, Babur is believed to be based on the US BGM-109 Tomahawk design. The cruise missile has a reported range of 500 kilometres (310 miles). It can be fired from warships, submarines and aircraft and is capable of carrying both conventional and nuclear warheads. The Pakistani cruise missile is designed to hug the terrain and slip undetected through almost any protective radar system.
The Babur joins Pakistan’s existing arsenal of short-range, intermediate and long-range nuclear and conventional missiles, which includes the Shaheen-I with a range of 600 kilometres , the Shaheen-II with a range of 2,000 kilometres , the Ghauri-I and Ghauri-II with ranges of 1,500 kilometres and 2,300 kilometres respectively, and the short-range (100-290 kilometres) Hatf series.
After its first test-firing in 2005, then-President Pervez Musharraf described the Babur as “a major milestone in Pakistan’s quest for strengthening and consolidating the country’s strategic capability.” Looking in the direction of India, he added that the missile manifests Pakistan’s resolve to maintain the balance of power that is essential to stability and peace in the region.
Pakistan has conducted a test fire of its
May 9th, 2009 ISLAMABAD -Pakistan has conducted a test fire of its Babar cruise missile without any prior notice, the Nation reports.Although the test was conducted last Wednesday, the Foreign Office disclosed the event this week only.Sources in the Foreign Office said that the event was kept a secret to avoid any negative impact on the talks between President Zardari and US President Barack Obama.
According to an agreement between India and Pakistan, both the countries need to inform each other prior to conducting ballistic missile test, but there is no such accord in place for cruise missiles
jawadJudging by a suspicious missile test on April 23 this year, Pakistan has modified the US supplied Harpoon anti-ship missile to strike at land targets, according to American officials, who say the changes are a violation of the US Arms Control Export Act. The test was kept secret not publicly announced by Pakistan.
The US charge, which has set off a new outbreak of tensions between Washington and Islamabad, was made in an unpublicized diplomatic protest in late June to Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani and other top Pakistani officials, the New York Times reported on its website on Saturday. The United States has also accused Pakistan of modifying American-made P-3C aircraft for land-attack missions, another violation of United States law, it said.
If I am not wrong in 1980 Pakistan was supplied only Submarine and ship launched Harpoons and air-launched were supplied in 1996-97.
jawadI just can’t imagine why Pakistan would modify 100km Harpoon when it already have harpoon-II that are delivered by USA with Land attack capability and have Babur GLCM with 700km , Ra’ad ALCM 350km and H-4 PGM with 120km
Simple fact that still there is no one is yet able to come up with proofs that Pakistan has tested a modified Harpoon. US intelligence suspects that it might have been Harpoon, but Pakistan is offering USA to inspect the inventory. Lastly Harpoons were purchased didn’t came under US aid.
Treaty only covers ballistic missiles as India did not agreed to include the cruise missiles as they though Pakistan doesn’t have a cruise missile program.
In the words of Mr.Robert Hewson, editor of Jane’s Air-Launched Weapons, a yearbook and Web-based data service, “Pakistan already has more modern land-attack missiles that it developed itself or acquired from China. “They’re beyond the need to reverse-engineer old U.S. kit,” Hewson said in a telephone interview. “They’re more sophisticated than that.”
jawadAll allegation are based on the fact that Pakistan conducted a test and did not announced with no proof that harpoon was tested. Pakistan already has 700km Babur and 350km Ra’ad cruise missiles along with H-2 PGM with 120 km range, so they don’t need to modify the harpoons to strike India. Pakistan had agreed to allow American officials to inspect the country’s Harpoon inventory to prove that it had not violated the law.
Pakistani officials returned empty-handed from a recent FoDP meeting in Turkey, bitterly complaining about countries not meeting the $ 5.7 billion commitment they had made to Islamabad at a previous meeting in Japan. Another FoDP meeting is scheduled to be held in New York on September 23, by which time even the US Congress is expected to demand that Pakistan redirect its energies on meeting the internal threat from extremism, rather than prepare to confront India.
Pak to get happy news in troika meeting: Patterson
Islamabad—US ambassador in Islamabad, N W Patterson has said that Pakistan would receive great news in the meeting of President Obama, President Asif Ali Zardari and Prime Minister Gordon Brown to be held next month.
Talking to newsmen after attending a ceremony the other day, she said that president Obama would preside the Friends of Pakistan (FoP) meeting in the US which will be held on September 24.
President Zardari and the British Prime Minister G Brown would also attend this meeting.
The US Ambassador said a financial package to Pakistan would be announced in the meeting of three leaders.
N W Patterson also told the media that the US Foreign Secretary, Hillary Clinton would visit Pakistan in October.
She said that Hillary Clinton would hold negotiations about the cooperation between the two countries in all sectors.—
jawadPakistan rejects US allegations of modifying US-made missiles
The Obama administration has accused Pakistan of illegally modifying U.S.-made missiles to expand its ability to hit land-based targets, a charge promptly rejected by Pakistani Ambassador in Washington. Citing senior administration and Congressional officials, The New York Times made the accusation in a dispatch that also said the altered missiles posed a potential threat to India. The Times said the charge came in late June through an unpublicized diplomatic protest to Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani and other top Pakistani officials.
“The accusations are incorrect and based on wrong intelligence,” Ambassador Husain Haqqani,” while commenting on the Times’ dispatch. “We will make sure that the US understands the correct picture and we will fight back periodic efforts to falsely blame Pakistan which remains a critical US ally in fighting terrorism,” Ambassador Haqqani said, urging the American media to help Pakistan in its vitally important anti-terrorism efforts and desist from making false accusations.
“Instead of false accusations, US media should help Pakistan secure the help it needs to fight our common enemy viz; terrorism,” he added. The accusation, made amid growing concerns about Pakistan’s increasingly rapid conventional and nuclear weapons development, triggered a new round of U.S.-Pakistani tensions, the report added. “There’s a concerted effort to get these guys to slow down,” the newspaper quoted a senior administration official as saying.
“Their energies are misdirected,” the official added. The accusation comes at a particularly delicate time, when the administration is asking Congress to approve $7.5 billion in aid to Pakistan over the next five years, the dispatch said. Washington, it added, is also pressing Pakistani military to focus its attentions on fighting the Taliban, rather than expanding its nuclear and conventional forces aimed at India.
A senior Pakistani official, who spoke to the Times on the condition of anonymity, also rejected the accusation, saying that the missile tested was developed by Pakistan, just as it had modified North Korean designs to build a range of land-based missiles that could strike India, according to the Times. He said that Pakistan had taken the unusual step of agreeing to allow American officials to inspect the country’s Harpoon inventory to prove that it had not violated the law, a step that administration officials praised. U.S. officials said the disputed weapon is a conventional one based on the Harpoon anti-ship missiles that were sold to Pakistan during the Reagan administration as a defensive weapon, the newspaper reported.
The accusation stems from U.S. intelligence agencies’ detection of a “suspicious” missile test on April 23 which was never announced by the Pakistanis and which appeared to give it a new offensive weapon, the Times said. U.S. military and intelligence officials suspect Pakistan of modifying the Harpoon sold to them in the 1980s, which would violate the Arms Control Export Act.
“The focus of our concern is that this is a potential unauthorized modification of a maritime antiship defensive capability to an offensive land-attack missile,” another senior administration official told the Times, speaking on condition of anonymity about classified information. “When we have concerns, we act aggressively,” the official added. Pakistan denied the charge and said it developed the missile, the Times said. The Times said some experts were also skeptical of the American claims. Robert Hewson, editor of Jane’s Air-Launched Weapons, a yearbook and Web-based data service, said the Harpoon missile did not have the necessary range for a land-attack missile, which would lend credibility to Pakistani claims that they are developing their own new missile.
Moreover, he said, Pakistan already has more modern land-attack missiles that it developed itself or acquired from China. “They’re beyond the need to reverse-engineer old U.S. kit,” Hewson said in a telephone interview. “They’re more sophisticated than that.” Hewson said the ship-to-shore missile that Pakistan was testing was part of a concerted effort to develop an array of conventional missiles that could be fired from the air, land or sea to address India’s much more formidable conventional missile arsenal.
jawadSee, that the yield of the 1998 nuclear tests was well below the claimed yield has been known and published in the public domain since many years now. Prominent amongst these are nti.org, fas.org and The Wisconsin Project (though, the last one is highly biased).
It is only now that an Indian scientist has publicly acknowledged it. However, the lay media is treating it as a “new revelation”, which is incorrect and unfortunate. Atleast CNN-IBN should have known better, as nti.org’s chairman is CNN’s Ted Turner himself.
The same was the case of Pakistani nuke tests. The first 2 devices were claimed to be 25 kT and 12 kT respectively, but siesmic data proved that their total yield was only 9 kT.
Reference :-
Abhimanyu only problem is to until this claim everyone was convinced that India had a considerable lead in nuclear weapon design (they still have some lead as they have at least claimed to test two stage thermo nuclear weapons unlike Pakistan which haven’t).But now this news puts Indian superiority in doubts
The Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission (PAEC) released a statement saying the five blasts measured 5.0 degrees on the Richter Scale, and produced a yield of up to 40 kilotons of TNT. “These boosted devices are like a half way stage towards a thermonuclear bomb. They use elements of the thermonuclear process, and are effectively stronger Atom bombs,” Munir Ahmad Khan, former PAEC director, told Agence France-Presse. Khan said Pakistan has had a nuclear capability since 1984 and all the Pakistani devices were made with enriched uranium.
In an interview on 30 May 1998 A. Q. Khan told the prominent Islamabad daily The News that the five tests were “all boosted fission devices using uranium 235” but said that although “none of these explosions were thermonuclear, we are doing research and can do a fusion test if asked. But it depends on the circumstances, political situation and the decision of the government.” Khan said that of Pakistan’s five tests, the first was a “big bomb” which had a yield of about 30-35 kilotons. “The other four were small tactical weapons of low yield. Tipped on small missiles, they can be used in the battlefield against concentrations of troops,” he told the newspaper. “This has been a successful nuclear explosion by all definitions. It was exactly as we had planned and the results were as good as we were hoping,” he said.
Yields announced were 35 kT and 12 kT respectively
jawadIn unofficial circles it has always been a known fact that Indian H-bomb fizzled , it was an open secret , the Pakistanis also knew about the H-bomb fizzle via the US and US knew too well.
The only change here is some one who was an important member of the POK 2 team and headed it in some capacity , revels the fact publicly for the first time.
Without H-bomb Indias strategic Nuclear capacity is dented and a critical technology leap is out of reach.
China already has that capability both developed in house and via stolen route i.e W81 for a low weight high yeald bomb.
Pakistan can always get via China route just like it got its fission bomb via Chagai route , I wont be surprised if India conducts a H-bomb test in the near future , Pakistan will also conduct another H-bomb test ( courtesy China )
For India the only option is to test it or loose the capability and technology to develop one for ever.
In my opinion, that would be a bigger disaster for India then not having an H-Bomb as possession of H-bomb would mean that even a single (that survived the preemptive strike)nuclear warhead will be able to do damage that would require dozens of simple A-bombs.
jawadPokhran II not fully successful: Scientist
Times of India
The 1998 Pokhran II nuclear tests might have been far from the success they have been claimed to be. The yield of the thermonuclear explosions was actually much below expectations and the tests were perhaps more a fizzle rather than a big bang. ( Watch Video )
The controversy over the yield of the tests, previously questioned by foreign agencies, has been given a fresh lease of life with K Santhanam, senior scientist and DRDO representative at Pokhran II, admitting for the first time that the only thermonuclear device tested was a “fizzle”. In nuclear parlance, a test is described as a fizzle when it fails to meet the desired yield.
Santhanam, who was director for 1998 test site preparations, told TOI on Monday that the yield for the thermonuclear test, or hydrogen bomb in popular usage, was much lower than what was claimed. Santhanam, who was DRDO’s chief advisor, could well have opened up the debate on whether or not India should sign CTBT as claims that India has all the data required and can manage with simulations is bound to be called into question.
“Based upon the seismic measurements and expert opinion from world over, it is clear that the yield in the thermonuclear device test was much lower than what was claimed. I think it is well documented and that is why I assert that India should not rush into signing the CTBT,” Santhanam told TOI on Wednesday.
He emphasised the need for India to conduct more tests to improve its nuclear weapon programme. The test was said to have yielded 45 kilotons (KT) but was challenged by western experts who said it was not more than 20 KT.
The exact yield of the thermonuclear explosion is important as during the heated debate on the India- US nuclear deal, it was strenuously argued by the government’s top scientists that no more tests were required for the weapons programme. It was said the disincentives the nuclear deal imposed on testing would not really matter as further tests were not required.
According to security expert Bharat Karnad, Santhanam’s admission is remarkable because this is the first time a nuclear scientist and one closely associated with the 1998 tests has disavowed the government line. “He is not just saying that India should not sign the CTBT, which I believe is completely against India’s interests, but also that the 1998 thermonuclear device test was inadequate.
His saying this means that the government has to do something. Either you don’t have a thermonuclear deterrent or prove that you have it, if you claim to have it,” said Karnad. Sources said that Santhanam had admitted that the test was a fizzle during a discussion on CTBT organised by IDSA. Karnad also participated in the seminar. He told TOI that no country has succeeded in achieving targets with only its first test of a thermonuclear device.
“Two things are clear; that India should not sign CTBT and that it needs more thermonuclear device tests,” said Santhanam. The yield of the thermonuclear device test in 1998 has led to much debate and while western experts have stated that it was not as claimed, BARC has maintained that it stands by its assessment. Indian scientists had claimed after the test that the thermonuclear device gave a total yield of 45 KT, 15 KT from the fission trigger and 30 KT from the fusion process and that the theoretical yield of the device (200 KT) was reduced to 45 KT in order to minimise seismic damage to villages near the test range.
British experts, however, later challenged the claims saying that the actual combined yield for the fission device and thermonuclear bomb was not more than 20 KT. Key Pokharan scientist R Chidambaram had described these reports as incorrect. He has also argued that computer simulations would be enough in future design.
jawadOnly 48 per cent of Indian Navy’s submarine fleet is available for waging war : CAG
The Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) in his latest report has painted a bleak picture of India’s defence preparedness.The report, tabled in Lok Sabha on Friday, says half of India’s submarine fleet is in disrepair and a grossly inadequate, three decade-old radar network has left the country vulnerable to enemy attack.The stinging CAG report states that no more than 48 per cent of India’s submarine fleet is available for waging war, should India be attacked.The auditors have blamed this situation on an ageing fleet, which the Defence Ministry has failed to replace.Also, the numbers falls far short of the requirement. India’s submarine fleet is only 67 per cent of the force levels approved 23 years ago.”The Indian Navy currently hold just 67 per cent of the force level envisaged in its 1985 plan,” the report says.At present, the submarine fleet strength of the Navy includes Kilo-class and four HDW. Currently, six Scorpene submarines are under construction at the Mazgaon Docks in Mumbai and the Navy has floated fresh Request for Information to acquired submarines.”Some of the submarines have already outlived their maximum service life,” it adds.The report also castigates the performance of the newly acquired sonars costing Rs 168 crore as being unsatisfactory.The report also sounded a grave alarm about the status of India’s air defence, which are based on outdated, 32-year-old technology.Shortage of key radars was to the tune of 76 per cent making India particularly vulnerable to air attacks.
INS Arihant to take long time to become operational
India’s first nuclear-powered submarine launched on Sunday will take much longer than the projected two years to become operational, according to naval experts, who say the real big test now is to ensure that the on-board reactor attains criticality. Noting there is still lot left to do, the experts said scientists had a onerous task to see that the on-board nuclear reactor – the heart of the submarine – attains criticality without any hitches. Naval officials said INS Arihant (Destroyer of Enemies) codenamed Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) will undergo two years of sea trials in the Bay of Bengal after which they hope to see the submarine commissioned for full service. “It is little optimistic only for one reasons because it the first of its class. In the first of the class there are a large number of checks to be carried out. It could take much longer time frame than the two years being projected (for INS Arihant),” said Vice Admiral A K Singh(retd) former Captain of INS Chakra, the Charlie-class nuclear submarine. The second ATV or the third ATV will definitely come out much faster, Singh said. C Uday Bhaskar, Director, National Maritime Foundation, said, ” I don’t think we should over-interpret the capability of the Arihant at this stage because there are many more complex technological steps before the particular nuclear reactor on the Arihant acquires criticality.” Bhaskar said hopefully three to five years down the road India would be a credible naval power because the country would then have the capability to fit the submarine with nuclear propulsion. Former Naval Chief Admiral (retd) Arun Prakash said a lot of work lies ahead for the country’s scientists and engineers. “The big day will however come when the nuclear reactor attains criticality,” he said. Admiral (retd) Arun Prakash said painstaking series of trials are necessary because even a minor malfunction can cause catastrophic results as the Kursk(Russian Submarine) accident showed. “They will also be long drawn-out and time-consuming because each defect that appears will be carefully analysed and rectified,” he said. Experts also said the state-owned Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) could take two to three years to indigenously develop cruise and ballistic missiles which can be fired from the submarine.
jawadPAF Plane crashes near Sargodha
A F-16 Fighter jet of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has crashed here late on Thursday, with the pilot on board, Squadron Leader Saud embraced martyrdom on the spot during the accident. The aircraft went down in Moza Awanwala in the vicinity of Khoshab, preliminary reports said. PAF F-16 was on a routine flight when it was crashed. Sargodha police said, the fire broke out on the place of accident while rescue workers are in a bid to bring it under control.According to police, the dead body of martyred PAF pilot has been recovered. This is the first PAF F-16 crash after 15 years.
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