sorry 4 late pick-up of some quotes….
According to this source Barak-2 LR-SAM for the air force has a range between 120 – 350 km!! I thought it was 70 km. All together Barak-2, LR-SAM, MR-SAM, Barak-NG, Barak-8 are like khichdi! :confused:
http://www.8ak.in/8ak_india_defence_news/2010/02/barak2-lrsam-maiden-flight-later-this-year.html
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Its to be noted that we went in for the Barak deal w/o even checking for the alternatives. In my opinion there was atleast two matured alternatives in the form of MBDA Aster 30 (upto 120Km) and Russian 9m96e2 (upto 120Km) from the S-400 family. Aster was already developed/in advanced stages of development and a variant (Aster-15; 30Km) was already installed on the French a/c carrier , where as the Russian 9m96e/9m96e2 was test fired back in 1995 and in ddevelpoment. The development was probably not having an urgency like some other systems b’coz Russians already had systems with higher range. When considering the above, the Russian option was much better as they were already in development of a long-range missile (120Km) and the naval variant was to arm their new Admiral Gorshkov class of “frigates”.
Barak-8 is an almost exact copy of the Russian 9m96e/e2 missiles. But thats not anything new as Arrow was also a copy of the Russian S-300V missiles. We do know that America helped Isreali’s in Arrow development with funding etc, but we do also know that America bought one battalion of S-300V system from Russia for “studying” it in 1995 for $120million after the pathetic results of the Patriot-2 system in GW. Thats how the Arrow finally formed like the Russian S-300V.
Probably even a local development wud not have been that hard as we had already had some good successes with Akash missile & PAD. It then came to the missile dsign – we cud have used the 9m96e2 as the base with with Indian/Russian systems. This wud have been more cost-effective with good amount of ToT among others.
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below are some attachments for the missile systems….
1) s-400 missiles — 48n6e (400Km)/ 9m96e2 (120km)/ 9m96e (40km)
2) 9m96e (40km) compared to VL Shtil-I
3) Patriots peformnace in GWI… this & succeding from an old article for BM defence.
4) PAC-III solution
5) Russian solution
6) European solution….
7) Barak-8
Oh, really? What kind of “larger PGMs” do Russians have today? Let’s have a look:
– SS-1 “Elbrus” – about 2 km CEP, probably withdrawn from service
– SS-21 “Tochka” – about 150 m CEP, waiting for disposal
– SS-26 “Iskander” – about 100 m CEP, still not in operational serviceHow do you think – how many new SRBMs will Russian Army be able to field in the future? I think ten to twenty launchers because they are assembled in the same factory where Topol-M is produced. Can you remember how many such launchers once USSR had? I help you – about two thousands (FROG-7, SS-1, SS-12, SS-21, SS-23). And the last thing: SRBMs are the worst PGM carriers even introduced: entire payload Iraq fired on Israel in 1991 using its Scuds was one tactical fighter ordnance equivalent! :diablo:
Go to school and learn something about current Russian abysmal military reality. Avoid Russian schools where Pogo teaches about stealth! 😉
Probably u don’t know to read this —-> they alwas have used “larger PGMs” and will be using it in the future in areas which are a “bit tight” to get in”……… or u don’t understan whats been meant when written inside ” ” these stuff??…. u can have some classes b4 u tell others… I don’t have time for detailed explanation regarding the Russian SRBM deployment…
But one thisg is for sure, thats Russian rearmament program have 60 systems of Iskander to be inducted and that will be made for sure regardless of what u think and thats good enough for the Russians. As for the PGM, read what i said — i said, they will get better stuff than what they are having now once the modernisation is over…
……first off all u can get off from what ur smoking and care to read these… they are better than any “reliable” western source. http://mdb.cast.ru/mdb/4-2008/item1/article1/
There is a Gud article on Isknder and its from there I made the chart for a QUICK VIew of the Isknder system.
And where did u get the CEP or Iskander to be 100Km???….. don’t tell that to the Poles & Chec who months before were worried abt the Isklander getting deployed near them…. Russians must be stupid to deploy Isklander with CEP of 100m…. u surely are something.. :diablo:
Guys….. ur say on this —— Naval Gripen or PAK-FA, which is going to get IOC first??
Also, is there a future for Naval Gripen??…. atleast with India I don’t see any. Maybe French & Brazil… whats the case with the Brits….will they got for a STOBAR Gripen if the F-35 gets messed up or if they want to have a CATOBAR/STOBAR carrier??
Ok, now after the first flight of the new stealth aircraft PAK FA T-50
A question rise….This aircarft is “Aircraft carrier capable” ????
:rolleyes:
I’d like to keep my fingers crossed for the RAC-MiG….. there were reports years earlier that they will be coming up with a new fighter….
Its always better to have a smaller 5th Gen fighter for the carrier…. rather than something thats 21m long… its too much consumption of precious hanger space, even though we may have a compact dimension whn wings are folded.
Come on MiG……. Give us a Treat in the coming years…
This may come as a shock to some but it’s not like the US has never had IRSTs in the proper location. The F-8 Crusader, F-101, F-102, F-106, F-4, and F-14 come to mind. Hell, the YF-12A had TWO. Leave it to the damn Super Hornet to screw it up.
Its a shock….. shocking to see that they did not use their IRST to newer a/c…maybe the Amrikkan IRST was at the best USELESS?? I don’t see any other reason for the yanks to drop the IRST from their a/c and also not going with LOUDSPEAKER with their “invention” they hardly forget to do.
they will be having 60 systems (i.e 240 missiles) by 2015, if u have read the “quick view of Iskander”…..and Russians army units bordering Georgia were among the first who got in in 2007.
It is a great looking model indeed and I hope they do pull this off, I noticed the deck lined with Tejas- thought the naval version was lagging so far behind that they decided to hold off for a bit- hence the talks with SAAB about the Sea Gripen.
No way Sea Gripen is going to be on the deck…… btw, will Sea Gripen have IOC before PAK-FA ??…. I don’t think so….
btw, I want to be optimistic abt RAC-MiG coming out with their new a/c…. I feel that RuN will be going forward with smaller a/c than the Su-seris on the deck and thats also better in terms of having larger numbers.
I also believe that the Engine config for the IAC program has been set at CODAG, with four Diesel engines (prob MTU’s) in combination with two LM-2500’s driving two shafts and a dual bow thruster, the model doesn’t show those!
I don’t know if its MTU, it maybe either Italians or French….. Germany is almost powering the entire PLAN fleet…
Finally- please please tell me who the cutie is that’s trying to hide on the bridge in this shot 😉
actually shes isn’t hinding, just that she managed to get a glimpse in the present window….. she has to be from the Sevmash team…
OK now finally- getting back on track here. With all the troubles Vikramditya is having, has anyone heard what it happing with Shi Lang (aka the former Varyag). I believe she was supposed to put to sea at the end of last year for trails and to be formerly commissioned as fully working unit of the PLAN
The TROUBLE with Vikramaditya modernisation was long ago….. the TROUBLE was not abt the work, but the TROUBLE was abt the ADDITIONAL FUNDING required for the ADDITIONAL Work, WRONG ESTIMATES & INFLATION….. and the DELAY is not abt Sevmash not able to do the work, the DELAY is due to FUNDING for the work to be done.
People won’t understand these issues, but i wud those who can’t understand to have a look closer home in the case of IAC. Did Cochin Shipyard start the work of IAC before they got the FUNDING??….. and will they continue if the Govt stops the funding??….. hell NOOO!!!
I hope Varyag maybe also some problems due to no-availablity of original blueprints of the a/c carrier…. cabling, piping are a head load of work that most guys won’t ever understand….. they are like reworking a embalmed body with new nerves….:eek:
great model and great looking Aircraft Carrier
Yeah she is beautiful…. but what dissapoints me is that she is short legged with 7,500 nautical miles and carrier takes a hell load of replinishments. I don’t like that two shaft thing as well….. even though newer ships are with just 2 x IEP, i personally am not comfortable with just 2 screws powering something like a/c carriers…
Rather than operating the carrier, IN is going to find a tough time to keep the “carriers on duty” with the negligible supports…..India is far from being a true blue-water navy other than the rather stupid remarks from media savvy admirals.
Indian Navy will only become a true blue water navy when we have enough support fleets to compliment the fighting fleets. W/o these “mothers” feeding their “children” on the battle front…. its as gud as guessing when we call of the mission and return due to lack of replinishments …..Its a shame that we are soooo much careless abt supporting our fleets….
btw, the above pic is of Gopal Krishna & the other one from Shiv……
Your entire post specially comparing Russian space capabilities with Europeans and Brahmos indictaes that you are new a fanboy!
Child, if you were in you than you could easily understand that India is spending same as Russia for development of Sukhoi PAK FA T-50. No, its not 80% but 100% of the Brahmos are made in India. Brahmos was developed from scratch in India as a joint venture after Russia failed to develop Yakhont. Its because of Indian+Russian technology that makes Brahmos better than other comparable AShMs.
Talking about space, everyone knows that Russia is way ahead of Europe in terms of space capabilities so there is no point of comparing them!
India does not claim Saras as 100% Indian but it is developed and made in India… just like Superjet 100!
Now a days every country except USA wants JV… Russia and India are just two of them!
Beta…..u have a long way to go. I just stated facts where as Ur still believe those figures??…. well let ur belief keep u in Good stead. Take care buddy. 😉
I don’t know when the Brahmos integration on new Talwar class is going to happen or the trials, but the firing won’t be any different than this… I’d be interested to see where the “PUFF” starts on Brahmos……
and finally the numbers are getting to what I argued for over 5 years back on this forum when the first batch of Talwars were on —- that we r short of ships and we’d need 9-12 of Talwar class and its plain stupid (both in terms of production cost & capablity) to order just three.
Thanks for the expansion ….:)
I am not sure whether you are trying judge a billion people by the attitude of a few guys you might have come across. And since I am not sure what they said so I can’t comment that they are wrong or right. But I come from one of the villages in India where people talks about Russia and its military support to India with awe. But unfortunately you will not meet them any time soon in this forum. Even now you can see examples on this forum on MMRCA (Search the web for more on all other topics). They say Russia’s after sale support is bad (even I would say the same), but do they all trust Amrica/west to the same degree as they trust Russia? Hell NO !!
I dont have time for detailed reply…. but no my dear…. definetely NO, I don’t judge a Billion on the basis of some stupids…. thats y i differentiates as ….. Indians & “Indians”….. got it??
btw, that also does not meant anyone having a different opinion is a traitor or anything like that. But i meant those stupids who never care to read or understand anything related to Russia, but these clueless stupids will the first one to point fingers and barking angainst Russia…..
True Indians & pseudo Indians thats what I actually mean by Indians & “Indians” —> these guys also have a special attitude that if any Indian criticizes an Indian product, he derinetely have to be either a Pakistani, Chinese or a Russian salesman who is out to destroy the indeginious Indian product. But that attitude is understandable coz that arise from the inferiority complex of not having done anything for the Nation…so the least they can do is back on Nationalism!
“GORSHKOV” BECOMES AIRCRAFT CARRIER.
January, 29, 2008 No.7Cruiser is being reequipped in aircraft carrier. Lots have been said about serious situation regarding reequipment of “Admiral Gorshkov” in aircraft carrier for India Naval Forces. As well as about reasons of breach of contract, the main from them being incorrectly determined scope of works and their cost.
Sevmash received a little bit more than 600 million USD from initially reduced cost. While refurbishment of aircraft carrier “Enterprise”, started in 1989, cost 3,1 mlrd USD for US budget and lasted for 6 years. Refurbishment of aircraft carrier “Karl Vinson” in prices of 2005 will cost US Naval Forces 2 mlrd USD. Building ships of this class is rather expensive business – English aircraft carriers “Queen Elizabeth” and “Prince of Wales” for Royal naval forces will cost 4 mlrd USD each, and prospective American nuclear aircraft carrier “Gerald Ford” will cost even more – 11 mlrd USD. Such great works shall be of national project character. Today Sevmash performs more difficult task within market conditions, it is unique not only for our shipyard but for the whole shipbuilding complex of the country. Resting on state support Sevmash does all his best to progress works. There were personnel displacements and updating of process schedule and organizational chart of production process. Milestone works are completed and they allow judging about positive tendency, being outlined in difficult and many-sided work. Commissioning manager D. STRELCHENKO tells about it.
ACTIVATION OF WORKS ON AIRCRAFT CARRIER
2009-09-08 16:17:57At Sevmash Actions for Activation of Work for Repairing and Reequipping Aircraft Carrier of Indian Navy are Taken.
In the past week the Presidents of two countries, Russia and India, Dmitry Medvedev and Pratibha Patil agreed on additional financing for repairing and reequipping of aircraft carrier “Vikramaditya”. On negotiation completion the Head of “Rostekhnologii”, Sergey Chemezov declared about this fact. “Of course, we are inspired with favourable decision of the Heads of two countries, – commented Director General of Sevmash, Nikolay Kalistratov, – and we continue great and effective work for repairing and reequipping of aircraft carrier. Receipt of advance at the rate of 102 mln USD gives a good impulse to work activation: required materials (pipes, paint, insulation etc.) are purchased, at the aircraft carrier workforce will be increased up to 2 500 people in the nearest future and back shift is organized. Today it is necessary to decide remaining issues in the shortest possible time”. At stable financing all these measures will allow transferring aircraft carrier “Vikramaditya” to the customer by specified dates.
Anastasiya NIKITINSKAYA,
The Head of Press Service of JSC “PO “Sevmash”
NEGOTIATIONS WERE HELD SUCCESSFULLY
2009-06-01 15:20:53This assessment was given by Sevmash leaders last week to negotiations concerning aircraft carrier “Vikramaditya” of the Indian Navy.
During a week representatives of the Indian Navy headed by Rear-Admiral Nair Prem Kumar, FSUE “Rosoboroneksport”, JSC “Nevskoye Design Bureau” and the Navy estimated and discussed the progress of the repair and refurbishment of the aircraft carrier at Sevmash. “Negotiations were held successfully”, Director General of Sevmash N. Kalistratov comments the results. “In the near future the project shall be additionally financed, that allows increasing the number of workers on the ship up to 2500 people, the intensity of works will rise. The updated schedule of all types of aircraft carrier tests for 2011-2012 was also signed”. It should be noted that due to the insufficient financing of works in the last two years Sevmash is behind of schedule. In the remaining period the time shall be compensated.
Besides official meetings, the guests accompanied by Director General of Sevmash N. Kalistratov and Deputy Director General for Military and Technical Cooperation S. Novoselov visited the Museum of Wooden Architecture “Malye Karely”.
А. Nikitinskaya,
Head of press service of ОАО “PO “Sevmash”
Photo by М. Vorkunkov
http://www.hindu.com/2007/12/09/stories/2007120953771200.htm
Sources here said that Russia will be prepared to take a second look at the cost estimates presented but India does not want to pay more for a task that has already suffered extensive time overruns. Russian negotiators have let it be known that they would be happier returning the $400 million given by India as advance for repairing and modernising the partially gutted aircraft carrier.
SEPARATE DISCUSSION ON AIRCRAFT CARRIER
2009-07-06 12:02:38During the recent visit of D. Medvedev to Sevmash, there were a lot of questions about reequipment of the aircraft carrier for Indian Navy.
The President agreed that the contract is new and difficulty for Russia, however it is unacceptable to make such miscalculations in the assessment of the cost of works. These mistakes negatively impact on the development of friendly relations with our strategic partner – India and put Sevmash in a difficult economic situation.
”Now we are facing two very difficult tasks – commented Director General of Sevmash N. Kalistratov. – First of all, we must agree with our Indian friends the minimum acceptable price which provides the project break-even. And secondary to perform all works which are quite new for us- qualitatively and in time”.
This negative example of miscalculation (instead of $ 2 billion the project was rated at $ 617 million) demonstrates the importance of strong economy and pricing services. One gross error influences the plant work for several years – during the whole period of the contract.
A. Nikitinskaya,
Head of press service of ОАО “PО “Sevmash”
It would be highly appropriate to take the refurbishment cost that has been mentioned in the above statement from Sevmash as the FINAL/Increased cost of the project. In all likelyhood this has been the cost that Sevmash has been talking abt for the last 2-3 years and still going on….
The funny part is that the clueless “experts” of media/paid/self-atteseted and all sorts of them have been coming up with all sorts of maths to add different figures and arrive at their FINAL price. These “experts” might be totally confused if we ask them to elaborate on the figures they came up with.
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Setting aside figures from those clueless “experts”, let do some math of our own from the available & reliable source to get some grip & insight on the matter. First of all lets have a look at the initial cost of the Gorshkov deal. Its commonly said to be nearly $1.5 billion deal.
Break-up of the cost gives us —
~ $740 million — MiG-29/Ka-28/Ka-31/simulators/weapons/etc
~ $650-700 million — Gorshkov modernisationThat totals — $1,390 million – 1,440 million … ie. nearly $1.5 billion usually reported.
Like many propaganda for the cost of MiG-29K/KUb @ $45million a piece, the cost of modernisation of Gorshkov are never reported in actual supplier/contractor terms. But ~ $700million is not just for Sevmash, but include — Sevmash + other suppliers & sub-contractors from Italy/India/Germany/Russia etc….
From the reports we do now clearly know how much Sevmash got in the deal –
1) What Sevmash was to get as per 2004 deal — $617 million
2) Indian funding probably till end-2006 — $400 million
3) Indian funding during 2007- Sept2009 —– probably ZERO
4) What Sevmash said probably 3 years back —- estimate went wrong, cost of material increased etc …. cost will reach ~ $2billion.
5) What does that mean —— it means they need additional fund of nearly $1.383 billion to complete the work
6) What India did —- ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, just pondered.
7) RESULT — work went at the slowest pace —
8) Time WASTED due to lack of funding — nearly 3 YEARS
9) Indian funding in 2009 — $102 million in September 2009
10) Indian funding (as per open source) till Jan 2010 — $519 million + anything more??
And the big question remaining is from now on will the funding flow-in smoothly?? If YES, it will be a big achievement by any measure as we have already WASTED 3 Years due to indecision and the completion & delivery of the Ship rest not on Sevmash’s incompetance, but on Indian ministry’s decision process and release of Fund for the project!
So now comes the total cost of the modernisation —
Initial deal — ~ 1.5billion
Cost of modernisation — $1,383million + $700million = $2,083million ($2.083billion)
Cost of Deal — $2,083million + $740million = $2,823million ($2.823billion)
In short, the overall cost have doubled but not trippled or anything like that, increased cost of $3billion – $4billion was propagated by some “experts”. The increase in cost for overall project has to be and can be paid. But the unfortunate part is that due to indecision we LOST 3 YEARS. If proper funding was alloted for those WASTED 3 YEARS, we would have been seeing INS Vikramaditya in Indian Naval service in 2010. Where as we are now waiting for it in 2012, due to the WASTED 3 YEARS!!!
I think the comment, Black Cat, was more to do with the carrier in real life and not the vessel of ‘internet comparison’.
Many, myself included, would be fascinated to see the defect list generated after she completes initial contractor sea trials. After that is resolved the defect list generated by operational sea trials would also be interesting to flick through.This is no special victimisation of the Indian Navy rather just an anticipation of a certain level of pain owing to the complexities of the hull refit/modification.
I think the posters who mostly post or open post w.r.t INS Vikramaditya are just meant to rub some salt on the deal rather than any meaningful stuff……. see the clueless kid who started this forum….the kid doesn’t even know or havn’t spelt the name atleast once properly since the deal got signed in January 2004. The first thing any serious person who r bothered or truely interested in a subject do is to get the name of the subject correct…..
Black Cat: I was just going over the attachments above and I noticed that you have listed Vikramditya with a capability of a Marine detachment and docking facilities where as the Vikrant has none.
Forgive me if I am wrong, but the Cavour class does indeed have this capability built into it by the Italians and I would have thought that this alone would have been a big reason for the Indians taking on the design for the basis of IAC1-3, have they left this option out?
For reference- Cavour Class Carrier on Wikipedia
The 134 metre, 2,800 m2 hangar space can double as a vehicle hold capable of holding up to 24 main battle tanks or many more lighter vehicles (50 Dardo IFV, 100+ Iveco LMV), and is fitted aft with access ramps rated to 70 tons, as well as two elevators rated up to 30 tons for aircraft. Cavour can also operate as Landing Platform Helicopter (LPH), accommodating heavy transport helicopters (EH 101 ASH) and ~325 marines.This is listed on many other sites as well (except for Naval-Technology, which is always behind in updating their info). The pic shows clearly the stern and Starboard ramps allowing transfer of vehicles on to Landing craft.
….well actually I shud have written NO in that box……b’coz the IAC model displayed during AERO India 2009 did not have the ramps either at the SB or at the stern. She is very beautiful indeed….. but disapointed that its bascially a small carrier with lower range & speeed.
If we had went on to built a follow-on Gorshkov design rectifying the shortcoming, as it was not designed outright as a full-fledged a/c carrier……it might be of the size CVF that we see. now.
This whole post is full of wishes. The PAK-FA is late to the game. It won’t be available for export contracts till at a mininum of what 2018?, by that time most of the market that wants or needs a 5th gen will have the F-35 whether its better or worse.
The MKI is not a better WVR dogfighter than the F-22, and there has never been anything to show otherwise. The Flanker series has great AOA, but its still a big fighter that is slightly more agile than an F-15 in some flight regimes and slightly less in others.
You guys are making all these claims of the PAK-FA without knowing any facts what so ever. None of us know anything about anything.
yes…. thats y i said speculation… 🙂
This one ???
There are better ones out there of the front view……
Ken
Yes buddy…. thats it the first picture. Thanks!
The first thing that came to my mind when i saw the PAK-FA underbelly was thats ….hey I saw something like that in that Ken’s picture. A regular Flankers underbelly wud look like that of PAK-FA’s if given such a covered chamber….but smaller…