Black_CatAll could see Russian SEAD and PGM capabilities last years over Georgia! Simply they are non-existent. Bunch of not working post-Soviet trash and that is all. You seem to know nothing about present Russian aerial armament and its capabilities so I help you a bit. Currently Russian aerial PGM types in inventory are as follows according to Russian military publications: Kh-28 and Kh-58 thirty-forty years old ARMs, KAB-500L and KAB-1500L thirty years old LGBs, Kh-25L and Kh-29L laser guided tactical missiles from 1970s and maybe KAB-500KR TV-guided bombs from 1980s. Yes they do not have even Kh-31P ARMs (they were produced solely for export) and KAB-500S-E GPS bombs. I short, using these weapons on the XXI century battlefield is very risky because it forces Russian planes to close to target at 10 km distance and overfly it at maximum 5 km altitude of course only in good weather conditions. In other words Russian planes are in range of every missile air defense system, even MANPADS.
Here you are how Russian PGM capability “has improved dramatically”, buddy! :diablo:
Russians always have careless attitude in the begining of a campaign and take loss, but after that, they are like sledgehammer …..just like we Indians. 😎 Unless we get some hits here and there, we don’t get heated up. 😀 …..probably the deep rooted Historical links are the culprit 😀
No matter what the year of make the Russian PGMs are, they alwas have used “larger PGMs” and will be using it in the future in areas which are a “bit tight” to get in. They used it during the Gerogian offensive also. So no need to get the planes into missile ranges. But let the modernisation complete and we’ll be seeing much more than whats its today.
just in case anyone wanted some info regarding Russia’s “large PGM” …can have a look below…and mind it these are Russian version not the exported version E.
Black_CatWhats all the rant about…hmm what about the Bulava missile.
I have all respect for the Russian hardware which are always bang for the buck and am sure they would not need any of the assistance of mine niether you to prove that they are very intelligent people.
But that alone need not mean that they can’t go wrong or sometimes others can’t get it better.
well u didn’t get my point…… hope those for whom I meant got it…….. There is a general feeling in India, mostly promoted by “indians” thats Russians are dumb and that every system that India buys from Russia has to be “sanitised” so as to get the dumb Russian system working.
Moreover, there is no such things as having gratitude for getting things from Russia that we wud never have got from others etc etc….not to mention India as a Nation who got unseen assistance from Russia allmost in every field. Whatever Russia sells India is just for money “beacsue they are salesmen” but whatever India gets from Amrikka & West is because they r are “helping”….. the same goes with everything that Russia has given us. “Indians” simply doesn’t acknowledge the contribution. But the blame has to be put on the Russians b’coz in most of the hi-tech cases, they are not given due “loud speaker” publicity and they hardly care abt media. Where as Western gives more “loudspeaker” and make sure that everyone sees what ever they are doing and never backout from claiming their credit.
Also, “indians” lack the basic Indian value of acknowledging others achievements (escept Amrikka & West) — we saw that when China lauched their manned capsule. Every single puppy was claiming that it was a Russian Soyuz and downplaying China’s achievement. True it was a modified Soyuz. But much more funny were their stupid assertion abt the Indian manned mission — hopefully they now got the reality that our manned mission will be a Russian vehicle which will be later licenced produced. And there include a lot of such examples…..
If u r not an “indian”, u’ll definetely understand what I said above.
see even the case with PAK-FA, the “indians” fascination for the Western systems….. maybe its their loyalty for people they are indebted for paying & feeding them. But the truth is that they want to replace anything russian inside even in PAK-FA with Western systems. ………If thats the case, I don’t get the point of these “indians” and those misguided Indians (who gets affected by these “indians”) to get PAK-FA w/o Russian systems. If thats the case, its better to go for F-22 rather than investing in PAK-FA and if pushed hard Amrikka may even provide us F-22.
That Sukhoi chaps “unwarranted” marketting stuff in the press release flattering India for PAK-FA cooperation is to make sure that India by chance does not go after F-35 if Amrikka offers it. Nothing more. Sukhoi know it play it dirty as well and we know how they used politics to get over MiG.
Black_Catbtw, plz do note that B-2 is an all-round stealth bomber with much higher stealth capablity than the F-22, which as per the Yanks were to sneak into Russia and bomb the hell out of the Russians single handedly (what all were the list?? — ICBM silos, mobile launchers and what not, thankfully they did not include submarines underwater ;)).
But fairy tales aside….. the super-stealth B-2 was given “Z+ category” (these are VVIP security available in India) escorts to run its bombing campaign against Serbia which had only handful of unserviced a/c (brave pilots fought against heavy odds & lost) and a few but reliable SAM systems of Soviet/Russian origin. If that was the case with the top-of the line B-2 “stealth” bomber,its better not to talk abt any “single-handed” missions for F-22/F-35. The same goes with PAK-FA. But unlike the marketting bull-crap like the West, Russians don’t believe in “stealth”, rather they believe in making LO and that toooo w/o compromising the bread & butter flight-characteristics – the result of such a practical approach is what we are seeing today as PAk-FA! And definetely their objective will to make it as much LO as possible.
Black_CatQuite a bold statement there, given that the F-22s air superiority role and the F-35s “bomb truck” role depend heavily on their stealth characteristics and even more on the electronics of those aircraft. (forgetting for a moment that those definitions of their roles aren’t true…or the weapons)
Sorry, I didn’t see ur post yestrday….
Yes indeed, its a bold statement and u’ll see it for real in the coming decade. But, I shud have put it more clearly…… as for the roles mentioned, I put that to differentiatiate the roles that the two a/c have a bias to.
First of all we do know abt the experience of Su-30MKI in the US including how the yanks tried to belittle the Indians and their magificiant machines. From some of the stuff that we have, we do know that F-22 don’t have the turn rate of the Su-30MKI ….. its probably no contention that MKI with its better manuverablity, brute of Bars, IRST etc wud be able to beat the F-22 in WVR close-combat as the main advantage of F-22 is its LO characteristics aided by BVR, including AWACS. So gettting a grip on F-22 in longer range of BVR will require brute of AWACS and when thats done, — it can either be
1) long-shot (which wud be taking the risk of the lock “slipping off”) OR
2) close-in to the coordinates for close-combat (20-30km), which can turn the table in favour of MKI
F-22 stratergy have been revolving around taking BVR shots (or even close-combat, but far beyond WVR) in hand with AWACS, making full use of its LO. These mostly are going to work very well against opponents with 3rd grade systems or compromised systems, like we saw in past campaigns. So, its not that F-22 cannot be “checked” with current a/c….. And I put that “bold statement” in the context of potential users capablity (Russia, India and possibly China at a later stage)….. i.e in an enviornment containing AWACS. And I do hope that many wud agree that F-22 will anyway be “out” on the screens in an AWACS enviornment……
So coming back to the PAk-FA & F-22, a one-on-one situation w/o AWACS may remain pissing contest here due to the sensitivity of the topic. But in an AWACS enviornment PAk-FA wud be able to very well take care of the F-22 in air-superiority by first —
1) getting a fix on the supporting AWACS (I can’t think of Amrikkans using F-22 w/o AWACS & other supports) and cutting off its vital supporting assets.
2) with own use of AWACS, passive attack, better fuel fractions & missiles… it wud be a matter of time before F-22 may crumble – either geting shot down/ run out of fuel & crash/ accept defeat and disengage and then rrruuuuuunnnn like hell (supercruise may be of great help in such situation;)).
3) F-35 case remains the same…. Amrikka & West can’t or rather won’t dare do anything w/o AWACS – They are soooooo much dependent on the supports. In short, there wont be mission w/o AWACS & other supports and these will be the first things PAK-FA will be targeting in a combat theatre. And they will be able to do that pretty well with their LO, very long range missiles & own AWACS support to get a “sense” of F-22 while doing the job. When thats done, balance will tilt fairly against the F-22/F-35 or for that matter any other…
How does it capture the “light and medium” market? This thing will be more expensive then any Flanker derivative.
Light in the current market read as Gripen, where as F-16 have gone heavy weight. So Light/medium aircrafts considering the M-MRCA tender will read as —-> Gripen/F-16blk60/F-18/Typhoon/Rafale and Sukhoi’s own rival MiG.
Yes, PAK-FA will be more expensive than the Flanker derivative for sure…. lets say that they might be atleast double and will cost $80million considering MKI cost at $40million. …. OR…. Lets take it as $100million and see what the competition has to offer….
Gripen —- not less than $55million
F-16blk60 —— atleast $65million
Typhoon —– atleast $75million
F-18 —- atleast $85million
Rafale —– atleast $75million
those are very modest figures, but lets see what probable customers may go through when choosing the aircrafts.
1) make no doubt – fresh & spanking new shapes and block-buster marketting catch the fancy of any air-force, more so the civilian guys in the MoD who makes the final decision!
2) Usually the above fancy of ownership gets watered down when they hear the price.
3) Its gets watered down even further when they further see the cost of ownership and here starts the more rational approach.
4) the capablity offered by the aircraft and value-for-money gets priority (in some cases) over marketting materials.
5) But even the best value-for-money material maybe side-stepped due to political pressure…. we saw that in East Asian competition among others…
Now what will be the case of these customers when they are given the option of a brand new 5th Gen fighter thats just a “little more” than above said M-MRCA aircrafts but with capablity thats in multiple terms?? I bet they wud loose interest in the above aircrafts and rather drool for the PAK-FA. Atleast thats what happening with most online Indian posters who now want to see the M-MRCA cancelled….. and the same may happen with decision makers, coz thats an inbuilt human nature.
Consider the case of South Africa — they got 12 Gripens, is it?? lets say that thay are in need for 12 a/c and Gripen is the best in terms of cost-effective fighter with good capablity @ $55million. Now what happens if Sukhoi offer the South Africans with PAK-FA @ $100million
1) they will surely drool for it, but cost will be a worrying factor
2) they may go back to the table and do some more analysis and come back
3) they may feel that cost-effectiveness or value-for-money between Gripen & PAK-FA is not signifacntly different….
4) So…. either, they will spend much more money and get 12 x PAK-FA to keep the numbers or with minor increament get a lower number.
5) Or even…… yeah….U guys know….
And thats how most customers are going to respond or the deliema that most customers are going to find themselves in the future unless the Yanks are’t fathering them.
Actually, the stratergy of Sukhoi is to capture the market with big (but cost-effective) planes started with Su-30s and they used it pretty well & succeded against their home competitor RAC-MiG. And thay are furthering it with PAK-FA and is definetely going to make a deep impact in the aircraft market of the future. They even are repeating the 1/3 market for PAK-FA and looks pretty confident. The above small theory that i said will almost back it up.
But future is going to be good for F-22 & F-35 as well coz it may be more available in the market than it is now. Europe is going to see hell load of these coming in the future.
Anyway, these are my speculation….. but time will prove if I was right or wrong, so mark what i said……
.
Black_CatYak 141 flying at Farnborough in 1992
😎
Ken,
R u still around??….. if yes I need a pic from u that u had posted 4 years or so back to one of my post regarding Su-30 family able to carry sonobouys in its belly. I do remember that in that pic of urs u had a close shot of an Su-XX having a covered underbelly compartment between its engines. The PAK-FA’s weapons bay now remind me of that compartment….
if i can remember it correctly , was it equipped with a M400 pod?:confused:…. but what I do rem is that it was a covered compartment?…. am i rite?
Black_CatIndia gives 50% of the development costs and Russia keeps almost everything! Indians are not that bad in tech business. Example… MKI, Brahmos, A-50 Mainstay and above all Indians does not want Russian version of PAK FA because it does not meet IAF’s requirements. Russia may keep some of the core technologies but those will be very few. If India feels that any of the subsystem on-board PAK FA is less capable than other comparative solutions India can get from Israel, Europe, USA or own R&D than the IAF will not accept it. India have access to all the MRCA as well he F-35 so they know about the latest systems through out the world. The PAK FA MKI will be 80% Indian made with few ToT from Russia just like Brahmos. FGFA will be 100% indigenous.
kid….u have a lot to learn.
50% development cost of what???…:p
80% of Brahmos…..what?? :p
100% of FGFA …… well the thing thats likely to be 100% Indian on FGFA might be its Pilot, paint etc…. etc, others will be either locally produced with ToT from diferent manufacturers..
Brahmos = Yakhont with Indian paint…. hard to digest?? not my problem. But the reality is that allmost the entire Indian missile development which was plauged with guidance problem suddenly started getting better result after the deal for Brahmos was signed. So hope u won’t repeat what morons says — Brahmos is Yakhont with Intelligent brains, as if Russians never knew abt those stuffs. For a start – Russians were playing with “intelligence” in their missiles decades before West came up with the now widely used fancy term “Artificial intelligence”….
Russians have been the masters with software and the world depends on them for the system with high demands — Soyuz, ISS command module, Rocket engines etc…… even the Europeans did not trust their Arine rocket for the very first launch of their prestegious GALILEO satellite…..Its Russians who launched it for them.
A question for u —- is Saras 100% Indian or even an Indian design???
—————————–
Its really funny to see How PAK-FA have suddenly become an Indian project and how much we contributed, when the reality is that we probably have not yet paid a single paise for the project, let alone any material contribution.
A word for the stupid Russians —- get hold of the fact that U are not a socialist country and its a Capitalist world now. And rules of Capitalism include – first & foremost – making gains for self! Its a self-centered world now, India is no exception. Think only in terms of PROFIT, PROFIT & only PROFIT. Any transfer of critical Technology or even integration of outside stuffs, means REDUCING your own PROFIT in addition to compromising the technology & characteristics to ur opponents (Amrikka, west), endangering ur own National security!
Black_CatYou missed the sarcasim, but anyway, so I guess you could say the same about the PAK-FA? Can you not? That its a good copy of the F-23?
ohh…… btw, the difference here is that the Yanks & Brits were actually in Russia for those in the early 90s, where as Russians never went to Amrikka or cross the channel for that YF-23….. 😀
Black_CatThey are planning the IAC-2 to be bigger and with CAT’s(there was news a year or so back that the US was willing to help India build an AC).Guess thats from where the CAT’s are going to come.
If IAC-2 is going the CAT way, then its better to get the Russian system which they made for their Orel class of carrier. I had posted abt it at BRF nearly 2 years back. Unfortunately noone posted it here…. let me check for the links and I’ll post it.
anyway, INs decision on CATOBAR or STOBAR will likely depend on Russian Navy’s new carrier……
Black_CatTraining crews for INS Vikramaditya in Russia…
FOLLOWING THE CONTRACT
2006-05-29 10:34:46On May, 29 in the Training Center of Sevmash the classes for technicians from India begin.
We remind, that according to the contract for the repair of Indian navy aircraft carrier (former heavy aircraft carrier «Admiral Gorshkov»), the enterprise together with Kronshtadt training-production center of Navy must train up to year 2007 about 240 foreigners in 50 professions. The courses began in the last autumn, the first students graduated in February. Since Monday, 23 people begin their training in four groups. The enterprise specialists from Design Bureau, Science Technical Department, Welding Department, shops 4, 9, 43 and 55 will tell the guests about the repair of shafting, screw-steering units, launchers, polymer constructions and materials. The classes end in Autumn for these groups. Total amount of training groups, arrived to Severodvinsk up to the end of the year, is 18. Arrivals are in July, September, October and December.
Anastasia NIKITINSKAYA,
FSUE «PO «Sevmash» press service specialist.
Photo by Maxim VORKUNKOV.
Btw, products from Kronshtadt include ship simulators, navigation etc. Its their ABRIS-31 thats doing duty on Indian Navy’s Ka-31 AEW. Other products include hand-held GPS systems etc……. I had posted abt those 4 years back here…
Its a shame that the “Indian” on this forum are pretty useless when it comes to sources which are not ready to get like Western….
FOREIGN STUDENTS OF SEVMASH
2007-02-06 10:05:4636 specialists from India have begun studying at Sevmash: Contract for preparing technical specialists regarding repairing equipment of ship 11430 (cruiser “Admiral Gorshkov”) is being realized. The previous students graduated in October 2006.
8 groups are going to study peculiarities of repairing ship systems, pipelines, cable trays, etc during four months on the basis of Sevmash training center. Half of the groups will be taught by specialists of SPO “Arktika”, the foreigners will have practice at their enterprise. It is the first time when specialists of “Arktika” take part in teaching Indian specialists on such scale. From the part of Sevmash teaching will be realized by Design Bureau specialists, scientific-process department, and chief welder department. Practice will be arranged in more than 10 workshops of the enterprise.
At present time specialists of Division No.4 (military technical cooperation) are preparing for the visit of the next groups of Indian specialists at Sevmash. Their studying is planned to begin in March 2007.
Anastasia NIKITINSKAYA,
FSUE “PO “Sevmash’ press-cutting service specialist.
forgot to put this one…..
INDIAN GRADUATION HOLIDAY
2007-06-01 15:01:0825 Indian specialists have finished education in “Sevmash” training center. The result of 4-month work is new knowledge and as confirmation of it, listeners have received certificates.
Under Contract for repair and refurbishment of aircraft carrier of Indian Naval Forces “Admiral Gorshkov” Sevmash is going to teach 48 groups to maintain vessel. Now students of 6 groups out of 48 received documents, 2 more groups will finish studying in June – it will be half of total amount of specialists, who shall be educated at the enterprise.
Yesterday graduates passed examination; at that according to examination committee they did it at their best and many of them with excellent marks. “I want to thank our teachers, interpreters, shop representatives, who took part in education process, – mentioned Deputy Head of Military cooperation division B.P.Stepanov in his celebrating speech. – I farewell Indian specialists and hope to meet them while warrantee maintenance of aircraft carrier”. Indian Naval Forces Head of observation group S.Madusudanan also congratulated the present: “I’m sure that knowledge, obtained here, will be useful while repair and maintenance of such complex vessel”.
Graduates of today are going to leave Russia, new groups will come soon. Sevmash is going to teach 100 specialists.
Anastasia NIKITINSKAYA,
FSUE «PO «Sevmash» press service specialist.
Black_CatForgive me for being pessimistic here, but I still think there are going to be problems down the track! India will claim this isn’t working right, that isn’t fitting right and a whole range of things will cause more problems!
well….lets be optimistic and sort of say …… sweat more during modernisation and have a trouble-free service!
…..hope any remaining shortcomings will be sorted out and the ship have a smooth sailing in service. Anyway in service any ship wud have its “challengaes” and thats whats it is. Its to iron out these “challenges” that technical wings are there.
I’ll bet Vikramditya doesn’t even have a work up crew yet, let alone a Commissioning Officer-
well, lets divide it into three parts — aviation, navigation & technical.
Aviation —- guys are already in the making…..9 already tasted the MiG-29K/KUB in Russia…
(…and probably for the first time, Indian Navy will have more carrier pilots than the current Russian navy. Many morons online, especially “Indians” make fun of the Russian carrier experience and the number of 12 pilots & jets without even having a look at the home front!)
Navigation
Navigation (ship) —- INS Vikramaditya specific crews may not be there, as the specific crew may only commence when the carrier starts sea trials. But, they will be ready by the time 12-18 month sea trials are over. But simulator training can progress….
Please check for the next post for Training related material.
Navigation (ATC/deck management) —- the most complex of the lot due to lack of experience in STOBAR. Although simulator training maybe available, still this is something thats going to take some time. And as usual, repeating ——> 16 x MiG-29Ks are the initial air-wing of INS Vikramaditya b’coz thats the most “accomodative” air-wing that the deck can handle now. When the deck-management gets more matured and proficient, I think we’ll see the number of MiG-29K having an upward revision to 20-24 aircraft in hign capacity config. 16 a/c is probably the max number that hanger can fully accomodate….so on a regular cruise/transit we may only see 2-4 a/c on the deck with the rest being helicopters. And probably all inside the hanger (except maybe couple of helos) when the sea is rough/not conducive for operation.
Technical
Technical (ship) —- They started the course way back in 2005 and are probably the most “on-site” experienced guys. Thanks to the problems that crept in during the modernisation, the technical guys might have got first-hand look into the same which will surely aid them in kepping the carrier in good service condition.
Of the 8+1 KVG-ZD diesel fired boilers, 1 is specifically meant for crew training. Its also possible that Indian crew may get access to Kuzentzov for training etc.
Technical (command & control) —- Another area which might only liven up only after the sea trials commence. But the training can be started rather independent of the actual ship and can be done with simulators and land-based systems.
and I wonder if they have even thought of a Lady sponcer to crack the bottle- hmmmmmm :confused:
I hope ur mentioning abt the launch….
If thats the case…. the ship was already launched in Dec 2009 according to Indian tradition by breaking coconut and puja offered to Lord Ganesha. Since this was not a “typical” launch, say sliding right into water… the puja was conducted before the water was filled.
Coconut Broken Against Aircraft-Carrier
2008-11-12 15:03:20The Indians asked God for happy fortune for the aircraft-carrier which is soon going to be launched.
One of the most important stages of repair and re-equipment of “Vikramaditya” cruiser (former “Admiral Gorshkov”) is coming to the end. The Sevmash specialists are getting ready to undock the Ship, all the works required already finished. The representatives of the Indian Navy WOT, held a ceremony before the operation starts, with prayers offered up to Lord Ganesha. It is the first time for Sevmash: lamps, fragrant sticks, fruit and flowers were put near the Ship, for Ganesha to be gracious to the aircraft-carrier and to those serving onboard. Instead of traditional bottle of champagne, a coconut was broken against the ship board, and all the guests were treated with fruits.
“We hope that this beautiful and reliable ship will serve for a long time for the greater glory of friendship between Russia and India,” said Sevmash Director General Nikolay Kalistratov. “But in the first place our leaders are to come to an agreement and find the means to carry the work to its conclusion.” The Ship is getting ready for launching, and in the picture which was given to the Indian colleagues as a keepsake the aircraft-carrier is already furrowing the seas.
By Anastasia Nikitinskaya,
specialist of JSCo “PO “Sevmash” press publication serviceTranslated by Svetlana Tarantina,
interpreter of JSCo “PO “Sevmash”
Black_CatJust like the F-35 is a bad copy of the Yak-141, and they would on there, they’re a sour bunch that don’t seem to like anything non-American. A very biased place.
well….F-35 is actually a Gud copy of the Yak-141. Its compact and looks much better.
And what do we say abt the engine that power the STOVL variant —- a Bad copy of the Salyut??
Black_CatIts really surprising to see some the “european” guys actually talking abt feeding people and socialism….. can a single flight of the new Russian 5th Gen a/c change people sooo much…;)
setting that aside….let me put a bit on PAK-FA
What it is —
1) It is Sukhoi’s answer to capture the light/medium & heavy fighter market with a single aircraft!
2) It has fairly beaten both F-22(air-superiority) & F-35(bomb truck) in their own two respective roles as PAK-FA have combined the two into one single airframe, without compromising on either! Brilliant!
What it is not —-
1) Its not a “stealth” a/c like F-22 or F-35, but just a “LO” a/c thats meant for combat….
2) Like all other Russian combat a/c, they are economically viable and meant for battle conditions unlike competition that is costs heaven and may require more attention than a massage for ur Girlfriend!
Black_CatGreat to hear…… also, noticible that those who used to scream that bankrup & stupid Russians won’t be able to make it before 2015-2020….
let me put a bit on PAK-FA….
What it is —-
1) It is Sukhoi’s answer to capture the light/medium & heavy fighter market with a single aircraft!
2) It has fairly beaten both F-22(air-superiority) & F-35(bomb truck) in their own two respective roles as PAK-FA have combined the two into one single airframe, without compromising on either! Brilliant!
What it is not —-
1) Its not a “stealth” a/c like F-22 or F-35, but just a “LO” a/c thats meant for combat….
2) Like all other Russian combat a/c, they are economically viable and meant for battle conditions unlike competition that is costs heaven and may require more attention than a massage for ur Girlfriend!
Black_CatPlaneman,
with all due respect & regards to ur brilliant work on the carrier comparison…… I have to point out that there was some mistakes w.r.t INS Vikramaditya. I’m pointying it out through some comparison. I hope u’ll have time to update the drawing… Thanks in advance.
btw, my perception of the likely weapons that will arm INS Vikramaditya are
2 x Kashtan
2 x 24-36 cell Shtil-I VLS/ 9m96E (40km)/ prefer 9m96E2(120km)
and if at all….. its really needed…..
8-16 cell x Brahmos VLS near the aft lift, where Klinok launchers were earlier anchored. Thats the only place Brahmos will fit if at all INS Vikramaditya is to be armed with Brahmos!
Black_CatAnother comparison that many wud not like…… these were (including the above) made in response to a thread (last year or so?) comparing INS Vikramaditya & Cavour was around. This was made during that time but cudn’t post…..
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