21AnkushLet us not focus on that. But telling that India is doing more then just assembling MKI and adding a few boxes is pretty funny. Your remarks about Pakistan (I mean you are not even able to write more then Pak) show that you cannot even look beyond personal hatred.
Please do not start the usual blaming to others of flaming. Just read the comment if your side in Chinese topic. No one is calling that wrong so be nice and accept healthy and correct questions. Let us return to the topic please. I try not to laugh when I read your post so be nice.
its your own personal hatred for India that is showing up here, Munir.
as for your statement “lets not focus on that”, what a joke ! you’ve got some temerity, you really do..your arguments don’t have a leg to stand on and you say “lets not focus on that” ? you don’t give one single answer to what Teer asked- name ONE single Pakistani component on the JF-17. and you can’t answer it. mission computers, radar computers, radar warning recievers are just “boxes” ? then why is your Naval Chief trumpeting how the new Harbin Z-9 helis for the PN has RWRs of Chinese origin ? if its so simple to develop then why hasn’t Pakistan developed anything worthwhile on its own ? there is simply no comparison between the Indian and Pakistani aerospace capabilities. and you say “lets not focus on that” !
it is YOU who is flaming on this thread. Teer asked you some rather simple questions and you say that he is flaming or playing the blame-game. as for being nice and all that, I don’t see you guys being so “nice” when I ask questions on the PAF thread..every Pakistani fanboy loses their temper and talks about trolling when asked a simple question and then invariably drags the Tejas into the discussion.
India wants them fast so Irkut makes them… That still makes me say that you do not design, manufacture or test them. You are a buyer with few parts added from whatever. It means the same if Pakistan gets J10 and adds Martin Baker and an Pakistani antenna or ACMI instruments to say that J10 is produced in Pakistan…
the Su-30MKI was developed to the IAF’s specification- get that ? even the RuAF couldn’t afford it at that time. Sukhoi showed what was capable and the IAF then brought up its own technical specs for what it wanted. its the same as the FC-1 that was developed to PAF’s specification. there isn’t a single Pakistani part on the JF-17. there are several avionics items on the MKI that are Indian developed and sourced for every single MKI. so which is more “joint” ? you say the JF-17 because Pakistan partly funded the program. but were it not for Indian money, there would be no MKI, MKM or MKA and even the Su-35 has taken plenty of know-how and expertise developed from the MKI experience.
yet, Indians will say the MKI is a licence-produced fighter, unlike Pakistanis who want to claim that its a joint program. lets be honest-the Chinese don’t need Pakistani help for anything. they were provided funding for the JF-17 by the Pakistanis because the PLAAF wasn’t interested in the fighter – it had the J-10 it wanted in service. even today, PLAAF shows no interest in the JF-17 because its not as capable as the J-10 which they’re developing further for their own use.
21AnkushIf India has only great fighterjets like LCA and the best pilots then why would they invest billions of USD buying foreign trainers, fighterjets and training? They have the golden plane called LCA that can counter anything inside Pakistan. I would expect a downgraded LCA for other developed nations. Surely a bit irony but it shows that we can counter these Ankush statements with a simple smile.
I have a feeling you’re only trolling and won’t really read the replies- anyway I’ll try to reply and see if you can comprehend-
the Tejas is delayed. thats a fact and there are several reasons for it, program management being one, but with a whole lot of other factors as well. its going through a flight test program and that hasn’t yet been completed, whether a downgraded Mk.1 or upgraded Mk.2 is concerned, it doesn’t matter, because both will share the same or similar FBW anyway. first of all, the primary customer, the IAF has to accept the fighter- it will accept 20 of the IOC Mk.1 Tejas to form its first operational squadron, similar to the first operational JF-17 squadron that is basically testing weapons and developing tactics. only after that is there any question of exporting it to any other nation. Without type certification, it cannot be flown by any air force, something you should know. as for countering anything inside Pakistan, whenever it does reach FOC, it will actually be capable of countering anything that PAF has. that’s also a fact.
LCA is still a development that needs a lot of time to get anywhere. The naval version is not even going to start cause no one is intrested in helping. India joins PakFa cause it needs a partner that gives 100% input. India want a foreign trainer, transporter, choppers, fighterjets cause it can not develop it without any help. .
India has developed an Intermediate Jet Trainer, the HJT-36 Sitara, to replace the HJT-16 Kiran and it has already gone through an extensive flight program- which is nevertheless nowhere near as complicated as that of the Tejas . it will enter service in 2010 and the delay was due to the Russian delay in developing the AL-55I engine. if the IAF was ok with the French Larzac, the Sitara would’ve been in service a couple of years ago. 73 IJTs have been negotiated for currently, and the figure will grow later. no foreign collaboration was sought or needed, except for the engine. compare it to the K-8 Karakorum, where China did all the design/development and Pakistani fanboys project it as being a Pakistani achievement..
HAL also proposed a twin engine CAT (Combat Advanced Trainer) to complement the Hawk AJT and there was even a full-scale mockup displayed- the IAF did not show interest in this as it was looking to induct the Hawk at that time as they wanted HAL to concentrate on the Tejas, and they didn’t expect any issues with the Hawk.
HAL proposed the HTT-40 for the basic piston trainer requirement- that was in the 1990s ! the IAF did not take it up further and now it wants to replace the Deepak all of a sudden. A little bit of foresight would’ve seen HAL developing and operationalising the HTT-40 much before the Deepak needed to be replaced.
the IAF has also placed an order for Tejas trainers with the F-404 IN20 engine alongwith the 20 already on order + 8 Limited Series Production Tejas. That will lead to a total around 40 operational in the Mk.1 spec itself.
So, for all trainer needs, there have been indigenous options or products available. one problem is that being restricted to only PSUs, the manpower available is finite- and having multiple programs running simultaneously adversely affects some programs- as the Tejas program suffered when designers and analysts had to be pulled to work on the IJT. the only way out is to collaborate massively with private sector companies in India that are working for civilian aircraft manufacturers in US and Europe, and there are quite a few of these companies in
India, like TCS, Infotech, Infosys, Satyam, Wipro, etc. and these companies don’t just work on software- they work on engineering as well.
at least all these developments are being done inside the country, developing the knowhow to make it possible to even collaborate in a real sense, instead of simply funding the program, painting it in home colours and calling it a “Joint” fighter and fooling the home crowd into thinking so.
regarding the N-LCA, the detail design is already going on- its based on the twin-seat Tejas OML. what ADA is looking for assistance is in the design of the undercarriage due to the much higher loads on it and additional surfaces to reduce the approach speed even further (likely the LEVCONS). the sink rate is very high and the challenge is to design something that is robust, still lightweight enough for a naval fighter.
IAF wants the PAK-FA to have a fighter capable of first complementing and then replacing the Su-30MKI in its Air Dominance role. Russia is a very trusted partner and there is simply no reason why India wouldn’t partner them when offered to do so.
You can make anything out of that but these are the facts. And if some wants to say that MKI is Indian. Latest AFM says is perfectly. There is an article about Irkut prodution of MKI. Everyone is invited to read that. And if some still think that adding a RWR is making a multimillion plane suddenly build somewhere else then so be it
selective reading huh ? post the article if you have it. and who said that its only RWR that India contributed ? did you even read the link I posted earlier on Project Vetrivale ? by the way, is Pakistan even capable of making its own RWR ?
21AnkushIAF to conduct military exercise with Oman
New Delhi, Oct 10 (IANS) The Indian Air Force’s (IAF) deep penetration strike aircraft Jaguar will fly down to Oman this month for a military exercise.“To further military diplomacy and for addressing issues of inter-operabililty, IAF will be conducting a series Our fighters will be going to Oman for a bilateral exercise,” IAF chief Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik told IANS.
The Royal Omani Air Force is the only other force in the world which still flies the British-built Jaguar, known as Shamsher in the IAF.
About half complement of the squadron, about five or six jets, are likely to go for the exercise to be conducted in the third week of October. The IAF’s ‘Flaming Arrows’ Jaguar squadron will be participating in the exercise.
“With only two air forces flying the combat jets, there have been training exchange programmes with Oman on this front,” a senior IAF official said Saturday, requesting anonymity.
India and Oman have agreed to step up cooperation by upgrading their joint military exercises and already have a memorandum of understanding on defence in place. Last year, Oman offered to provide berthing facilities for Indian Navy’s warships patrolling the piracy-hit waters off the shores of Somalia.
Oman military personnel are already being trained in Indian military training institutions. Oman has also been seeking assistance from the Indian armed forces to set up credible supply systems for their defence equipment.
21AnkushThe Jaguar is a fantastic aircraft and the Indian Airforce are making the best of this aircraft if they fit it with a more powerful engine. This will allow the Jaguar to operate at it full potential. Will the Indian Jaguar’s be getting all the upgrades the RAF GR3’s were meant to have. Do the indians use the over-wing pylons? If they do i would get the tech from the British to wire them for ASRAAM which will give them a long range IR missile. The ASRAAM is known for it’s much longer range compared to other IR missiles like sidewinder etc. Alos get the RAF helmets that allowed designation by sight etc and this will be the best tactical bomber in the region.
the first 40 IAF Jags assembled in the UK had the Adour Mk804 engine. Those assembled and manufactured in India had the Adour Mk811, which is rated at 25.0kN dry and 37.4kN with afterburner, only very slightly lower than the Mk104 that the RAF’s Jaguars had earlier (Mk104 (23.9 kN dry, 35.8 kN with afterburner). the Mk.106 had 25% extra power, and these were meant for a fleet wide upgrade to the GR3A and T4 fleet in 2000.
the IAF has formed a committee to look into the proposals that RR and Honeywell have submitted and once their decision is made, the IAF will go ahead and make its recommendation to the MoD of the GoI. as of now, they haven’t yet specified which engine they prefer. The Honeywell is lighter, and has other advantages that can be seen in its promotional video, however its a US engine and ToT may be more limited. the RR Adour is heavier than the Honeywell F125, but has the advantage of very little to no modifications needed to accomodate it.
IAF Jags carry the Matra Magic II on the overwing rails. there’s a video of it on youtube as well, that I’ll post later and there are pics on Bharat-rakshak that show it being mounted. in June 2009, the IAF had a RFP for air-to-air missiles with Helmet Mounted Display for the Jaguars, and the ASRAAM was one of the contenders, along with AIM-9 (don’t remember which version), IRIS-T, Python V and the R-73. the total value of the deal is $100 million, for 384 fire and forget missiles, 130 HMDs and 226 launchers.
As for the Jaguar upgrade, the IAF is going in for a more comprehensive, DARIN III upgrade.
you can see a DARIN II upgraded Jaguar cockpit. I don’t have details on the DARIN III upgrade and so I’m waiting on the new issue of Air International that has some details on it.
[/quote]the RAF will be so jealous[/quote]
I’m not sure if they’d be jealous, but there were many in the RAF who were not happy with the premature retirement of the Jaguar force. it was another funding related decision, and not to do with the condition of the Jags or their capabilities.
What i think would of been great would of been a basic cheap redesign of the Jaguar to give it the ability to carry more fuel and if eurojet2000 was picked to be the engine for LCA to also put this in the Jaguar. The power would have been more than enough and the fuel efficancy would of made the jaguar a fantastic all rounder plane.
increase MTOW to include more internal fuel ? would’ve been a costly re-design and not a cheap one, akin to the structural re-design on the Gripen NG. and the wing-loading on the Jag is quite high, making it a very stable bomb platform under gust conditions at very low levels, but also making it a not-so-great turner. all-round capability was simply not possible on the Jag. but looking at the investment that the IAF is making on its Jag fleet, as compared to its MiG-27 fleet, its clear which one finds more favour.
21AnkushBut let us focus on a huge plane like MKI. Plane is designed by Russia. Weapons, radar, ejection seat, engines… All Russian. When we move towards the often used avionis part… Please tell me whih part is purely Indian and where it had no TOT, consultany or whatever? Look Israel provided most of the avionis. So did Thales. But there must be something in a huge plane with that many parts that we can say that they really added something they could not get anywhere else for that price/quality?
all those parts are Russian, because the MKI was developed from the Su-27 and Su-35 (older). why would anything that works perfectly well on these have to be replaced ? the K-36 on the MKI is already one of the best ejection seats in the world. the weapons are Russian because its always easier to integrate them. However, the Brahmos is to be integrated soon, and later on, when the Astra air-to-air BVR missile is ready, the first platform to test it will be the Su-30MKI.
as for Indian components on the Su-30MKI, read this page
21AnkushMKI is not made in India. MKI is invented by Russians. It is build by Russians. The parts are exported by Russians. And these parts are assembled in India. Even the process control is done by Russians. There is a way difference between building a plane and putting it together. If you look careful at some inside reports you will see that it is cheaper for India to import all poarts then setup a local production facility. You know the sites and otherwise I can help you with finding them.
of course the development of the MKI was done by Russia. However, unlike the JF-17, where no Pakistani has any idea what Pakistani component is used (because there is none) and where the only Pakistani effort was to specify the requirements, oversee the Project Management, and do test flights, the MKI actually has several Indian developed components, including mission computer, RWR, EW and others. google it for yourself.
and even with all the hand-holding that the Chinese have done for Pakistan, the assembly process at PAC Kamra will be heavily supervised by Chinese. the entire engine will be Russian supplied, with no associated ToT anyway.
regarding MKI, either you’re totally unaware of its Phase wise program, or you’re simply trolling- if not, take a look at what Teer posted about the MKI a page before. Phase 4 will have Indian sourced raw materials for the MKI, and because of the compression of the schedule by 3-4 years, there are more MKIs that will use Russian sourced raw materials, parts, etc.
21AnkushLCA is hardly more then a plane in development. We have read the nice parameters decades ago, yet the development is not finished and you are already promoting it. It is heavier then planned and underpowered even by using a foreign engine.
this shows how much the IAF expects and how the PAF will make do with what it gets. the Tejas weights 6500 kgs empty, the JF-17 weighs 6800 kgs empty. the F-404IN20 engine of the Tejas Mk.1 produces 20,200 lbs (9163 kgs) of thrust in AB, the RD-93 of the JF-17 produces 8300 kgf /18,260 lbs of thrust with AB. so, the JF-17 weighs more than the Tejas and in AB produces less thrust, meaning a poorer T/W ratio. yet, the IAF wants a more powerful engine to fully exploit the Tejas, whereas the PAF is thrilled that its getting the less capable and less sophisticated JF-17. its a question of what options are there- PAF cannot afford an expensive fighter, so it is ready to make compromises to keep the costs down and meet a tighter schedule, even if it means a less capable fighter.
Since when is operational? I surely missed that. MKI is assembled and not made in India. It needs to be seen how well it performes in real combat. I am not that convinced that it is superb compared to its opponents. Somehow you turn everything into your position but the reality is a bit different.
not as good compared to what ? the still in development 3rd generation JF-17 ? or the F-7PG or ROSE Mirages ? or the F-16 Block 50 that is going to be the “uber” fighter for the PAF in the coming 5-6 years ? its fine if you think its a lousy or over-hyped fighter. the IAF is very happy with it and those who’ve fought it in exercises have praised its capabilities.
21AnkushHundreds of Pakistani engineers & technicians have been involved in this project since its inception, and more so since mid-late 90s. A large number of them have worked with their chinese colleagues in all sorts of departments at CAC. While Im not aware of any typical contributions to this project and Im not saying that PAC engineers might be able to design an equivalent tomorrow, they have been involved in all sort of stuff, most of all learning if not doing anything else. All in all, it was not a simple case of we pay and you develop for us.
source please.
21AnkushI think that getting full TOT, involved in engineering and management showed that PAF did something new in this field. As AFM magazine wrote… It is truly the first fighterjet designed by an airforce. If you read some historical notes then you would know that Mushaf Ali Mir did had serious involvement. If PAF gets something for paying developments costs then you are terrible wrong. In essence they did the same as India. The difference is that China hosted it while India wanted to do it all alone.
Now without turning it into a battle… PAF did get a good plane for what they wanted (a cheap replacement for their decades old A5/Mig21 derivatives/Mirages3/5) and they can change or improve cause they will get the permission to do it and the knowledge if they need assistance. If the Pakistani did nothing then why so much attention in testing and evaluating it again in Pakistan? And you should know that they will add western avionics/radar/weapons/ifr in Pakistan and not in China. So there is a lot more then the usual idea that they paid only… I hope you do get that.
Insig, one person’s involvement in a project doesn’t mean that Pakistan can design its own fighter or that Pakistan gained design knowledge or expertise from this program. China has decades of experience with reverse engineering Russian designs and then continuously upgrading them as well some of its own designs (like the JH-7). It is impossible to gain such massive experience in the various fields that are required to design a fighter- from structures, systems, aerodynamics, flight control laws, to integration, detail design, etc. without having had several Pakistani institutions actively working with the Chinese on the program from the initial stages.
most of what Pakistan’s aerospace infrastructure has as of now is all tailored towards manufacturing and overhaul of existing fighters and of limited upgrades to avionics. they could have asked for a higher degree of work-share on the FC-1 program and that way begun to develop some degree of knowledge of how to design a fighter. that would’ve taken more time maybe, but it would mean that true design knowledge would be transferred. PAF’s requirements however were to replace some obsolete fighters quickly so China did all the design work on the fighter. Of course we know that PAF laid down certain specifications for the fighter based on their requirements, but which one Pakistani company worked on any part of the JF-17 while it was being designed ? which one part was designed in Pakistan ? the answer was given in the Pakistan Air Force thread- none that anyone, not even PAF fanboys were aware of.
I don’t see why you drag India into this- but if you want to, then let me tell you that there is simply no comparison between the two programs. India developed every single infrastructure required to develop the Tejas within the nation- that was THE AIM of the project. There is a comprehensive list of the laboratories, scientific institutions and companies (both public sector and private) that were involved in this project, which you can google and it numbers over 300 or so..While they did get consultancy from Dassault during Project Definition phase and from LM for the FBW (which was discontinued half way through when the US sanctions hit India), most of the rest was developed or designed within India. It is THIS infrastructure of aerospace companies and associated ancilliary industries that a fighter program will develop and then you can design a fighter indigenously. Just participating in the flight test program or testing it in Pakistan doesn’t imply that any DESIGN knowledge was gained- of course PAF has test pilots from Empire Test Pilots School who may have been key persons in the flight testing of the JF-17, but please do understand that there is a BIG difference between that, and getting deep knowledge on how to design a fighter.
21Ankush. PAF was concentrating on JF-17, and at the time they were hoping that the series production would start in 2006/07. As a programme, it was meant to bring in a whole lot more, i.e. give PAC the basic fighter design/assembly/manufacture experience.
not flaming, but how could they get design experience when the Chinese side was totally responsible for that part of the project ? assembly and manufacture experience they’ll get transferred from the Chinese, but design knowledge cannot be gained without participating in it.
b. J-10 was yet to mature as a fighter in service. Although it would have been superior to JF-17 in air to air mode, but I could not see it offering many distinct advantages in terms of A2G around the time.
the JF-17 would suffice in roles that replace the Mirage-3 and -5 and the A-5, but there is one distinct advantage in the J-10’s favour- more payload. for a bigger A2G loadout, it could still carry self-defence missiles. on that note, how mature is the J-10’s A2G strike capability right now ? what weapons does it use in this role ?
21Ankushwhere was it taken ?
21AnkushShiv Aroor also has a flight in the Gripen D, the first Indian journo to do that was Vishnu Som of NDTV.
21AnkushI read the Indian navy have just placed a follow-on order for 29 more Mig-29K’s? If they wanted Rafale why would they of done this?
Also i’m not that confident that Rafale could operate with any kind of load or fuel from the Indian carriers without the help of a catapult. It’s engines aren’t that powerful to start with. The rafale is a good aircraft and is most likely better than the Mig29K but i think people will be surprised with the ability of the Mig-29K. Maybe the french navy will take a trip to the indian ocean for joint exercises once the indian carriers are in service. Then we will hopefully get some true results instead of made up stuff. Remember we are talking about brand new Mig29K’s not 1980’s Mig 29A’s.
The 1st order of 16 Mig 29K’s india had to buy as this was part of the deal for buying the carrier but it wasn’t tied into a second order for another 29. The multi role Mig 29k will be a good aircraft and i think some people are underestimating it here. We will see when they get some joint operation’s going with other carrier nations or operation results from playing with the airforce. I think people that have doubted the K version will be surprised.
Russia is looking to buy some Mig-29K’s as well to run off there carrier because it is a good aircraft. Also the Indian Navy are replacing old Sea harriers and the Mig-29K is a big improvement. The Indian navy sea harriers are the old mark 1 models and even with the recent upgrades are not that great an aircraft especially when operating in the environment they do.
In the future the Indian navy has 2 routes it can go down for carrier development. This will either be to equip them with catapults and operate aircraft either from america 9super hornet or F35C) or an updated french aircraft or to make Pak-Fa carrier capable. Further in the future will be the MCA maybe being made carrier capable. It depends if the IN turns into a big carrier player or sticks with 2-3.
The other route will be to get F35B from the americans and use ski jumps.
One final route will be if the russians build more carriers (which they say they will but i personally will wait and see) and what type they make them. if they use catapults most likely Pak-FA will be made carrier capable. If going STOBAR again it will probably be PAk-fa.
IN will hopefully operate LCA but it will need a bigger and better aircraft to supplement this.
Anyway this stuff is 15-30 years off. For now it’s Mig-29K’s and the Indian navy are very happy with this.
read my post above. the then Chief of Naval Staff, Retd. Admiral Arun Prakash has clearly stated the reasons for why the Rafale wasn’t an option (thanks to catapults being only available from US sources, and India’s not so warm relations with the US at that time) and how the MiG-29K met all the IN’s requirements.
21AnkushBuild qualities are not indicative of performance (unless its a 5 gen where even a small rivet can make a difference. Btw, is/was the Rafale even offered with a Mech?
no it wasn’t. only the PESA RBE-2 that was considered by most to be very range-handicapped. the AESA RBE-2 was supposed to address this one major drawback of the PESA RBE-2. all in all, the Rafale M F1 (which was evaluated as it was the only Rafale M in service back then) was really not the least bit multirole at that time and still under development.
and as regards Rajan’s claim about the Rafale M being the Indian Navy’s choice, and having been forced to adopt the MiG-29K instead, I found an article by retd. Admiral Arun Prakash that basically clears up the air- the Rafale was rejected because it needed a catapult, or CATOBAR operations and the IN didn’t think that it could get a catapult for its future carriers, and the INS Vik anyway didn’t have one. so either they’d have to wait for the N-LCA to become operational and then embark on the INS Vik or else the INS Vik would have no fighters at all- as it turned out, the INS Vik is majorly delayed, and the N-LCA is not going to enter service before 2014 at the very least anyway.
and he very clearly mentions that the IN evaluated both the Su-33 and the MiG-29K and BOTH met their requirements, but the size of the Su-33 and carrier space restrictions meant that the MiG-29K was chosen, but the IN specified specs that it required, which meant that the current MiG-29K is a much upgraded fighter from what was evaluated.
21AnkushOh dude! I also told the same story. Please read my earlier posts again. Rafale was IN’s primary choice and Russia forced them to choose Mig-29K. Russia told them Gorshkov will be sold as a package combined with Mig-29K, so IN had no choice but to go for Migs. Russians also recommended that Gorshkov as a ‘free gift’ with ‘little bit’ of $$ for upgrade and Mig-29K. But later what happened to that ‘free gift’ we all know. Admiral Arun kumar? You mean Admiral Arun Prakash, I guess.
my mistake, I meant the IN chose the MiG-29K. If Russia had forced India to buy the MiG-29K, then there would be no evaluation of the Rafale M done by the IN..yeah I meant Arun Prakash..I’m sorry I wasn’t paying particular attention when I wrote that post.
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