21AnkushIndia only has one company/firm making planes that is ADA/HAL. In the U.S you have a few, but if you have seen interviews of Aero India and other airshows, the U.S Navy/Boeing Test pilots will say Super Hornet is a joy to fly and big up its capabilities. So will the Lockheed testpilots flying the F 16.
In Aero India 2007 the MiG 35 pilots claimed that their jet gave near Fifth gen capability.
Indian pilots whether test pilots, AF pilots or Navy pilots are always going to say nice things about the Tejas. If it was that good in tis current form IAF would have inducted it in large numbers instead of asking them to come up with the MK2.
Its normal and natural. :rolleyes:
all the test pilots at AeroIndia are PAID EMPLOYEES of their particular companies..they’d be sacked if they didn’t say good things about their particular jets to the press and public. Not so with NFTC test pilots who are as it is only voicing their opinion to someone in private, not to the press or general public.
besides, there is a difference between an aircraft being a “joy to fly” and its developed capabilities for a particular role- that is the difference that is causing the IAF to ask for a Mk.2 variant, so its capabilities fulfill all the ASR requirements.
the Su-30K/MK was an interim step for the IAF, but its capabilities didn’t approach that of the current Su-30MKI..so does that mean that the Su-30MK was a dud as far as flying was concerned because the IAF didn’t order more of that type? the answer to anyone with a little bit of common sense is NO. the Su-30MKI improved on the K/MK on both its aerodynamic front and its sensor/capabilities front and the IAF would not settle for limited capability for a multi-role type in order to fill numbers.
the LCA Mk.2 is the equivalent of the Su-30MKI Phase.3 capability. that is when the Su-30MKI met all its ASRs and that is when the LCA will meet all its ASRs.
Customer POV. They have no choice if they want to go Indian they have to go for HAL. If we had two companies coming up with two jets for trials, then the pilot remarks can be taken more seriously.
Also if you take Tejas in its finished form to a foriegn competition and when their pilots say Tejas handles awesome then that really means something.
yeah right..these are pilots who’ve flown Mirages, MiG-29s and Su-30s in IAF service, so they know what they’ve comparing against when it comes to flight characteristics. the Test pilot commented that the LCA responds very quickly to pilot inputs and its a characteristic of its FCS. those guys know what they’re talking about when they compare it and make a comment. if they don’t like the way the Tejas flies, they will not make a comment on it in private- as simple as that, unless you’re claiming they’re liars- the reason is that they’re NOT PAID by HAL or ADA to say good things about the Tejas. and if the IAF is not happy with the Tejas, it would go the HF-24 Marut route, which is basically into oblivion. on the contrary, there is a renewed interest from the IAF in an indigenous MCA as well as a Mk.2 variant, obviously based on the speeding up of the program and some positive experiences with the LCA as far as the IAF is concerned.
21AnkushThat was all I meant. Unfortunately test pilots tend to publicly praise products of their own country, however good or bad they may be, which undermines the credibility of genuinely positive comment.
I don’t agree. In this particular case, the Test pilots are tasked with the development of the aircraft, and are looking at it from a customer’s POV, which tends to be more critical than the supplier’s POV. if the Tejas is not a joy to fly, they won’t say it is, because they are representing a tough customer in the IAF, not a development agency like the ADA or HAL.
21AnkushAnkush spitfire has a point. The Tejas may well be a joy to fly. But the IAF pilots are not likely to say otherwise. I am sure thats all he meant.
why are they not likely to say otherwise ? its like saying that whatever pilots say is always tinged by nationalistic fervour since they’re obviously not being paid to say that (unlike corporate test pilots, whose job is to make that aircraft look attractive for sales)..
I’ll remember to bring this claim up everytime someone says a particular pilot said somethng good about his aircraft. going by the same yardstick, we should use a pinch of salt whenever a pilot from the country of its development praises the Typhoon, Rafale, F-16, F-18, F-22 or any other aircraft for that matter.
21AnkushDo you know of any test pilots publicly reporting that the aircraft produced by their mother country they are tasked to test fly is not very good/disappointing/lousy?
so what ?
does it mean that all the test pilots lie ? whom would you believe then ?
there is also a difference between “Corporate” test pilots such as those who are paid by companies like Dassault, Boeing, LM, MiG and Saab and those who are flying the LCA. these are all paid by the Govt. of India as they are on deputation from the IAF. there is no reason for them to speak nice things about a product for which they don’t get paid for doing so.
if Sqdn.Ldr. Baldev Singh (retd. IAF pilot and now HAL test pilot) said good things about the HJT-36 Sitara, I’d also say that since HAL is his paymaster, he might be obligated to say that, but its not so with NFTC test pilots who are employed by the IAF, not HAL or ADA. they will be held responsible by the IAF if its found that they’re not being truthful, as it is the customer, not the sales company.
besides, these comments were not made in front of the media as part of some PR campaign but were made to a poster from BRF when he interacted with the TP during AeroIndia, so they’re strictly personal and not some company line they’re blindly toting.
they’re also similar sentiments to what other IAF test pilots who’ve flown the Tejas have shared in the past as well.
21Ankushjust posting something that K Prasad (a poster on BR Forum) wrote based on his interaction with an LCA Test Pilot at AeroIndia 2009
‘Also had a 3 min chat with an LCA pilot (who was on Mirages and Migs before this), and has flown on a Sukhoi…. by his own admission, the LCA is an “absolute joy to fly”…. responds extremely nimbly to commands (despite the underpowered engine), and the cockpit is far better than anything he has seen.He was extremely confident that the LCA would definitely come into large scale service, and once the pilots were introduced to it, he said, “we’ll have a huge problem rejecting transfer applications to LCA units”.
there is just too much of interesting stuff being shared by posters who attended the AeroIndia show..lots of updates on the LCA, indigenous AEW&C, etc.
21AnkushWe have several examples of air combats involving the F-104A. Its performance was exactly as predicted by its general characteristics, i.e. its high thrust to weight ratio, superb acceleration, & the limits placed by its high wing loading,
Every F-104 aerial victory was in a high-speed, straight-line attack. When it conducted such attacks, it was very successful. Every attempt to dogfight was a failure, but in some cases the F-104 was able to escape by outrunning its adversaries.
The F-16E has an even more heavily loaded wing than the F-104A. 358 kg empty weight/sq metre of wing area for the F-16E, & 332 kg/m2 for the F-104A. I’ve not been able to find any other fighter that exceeds it.
I advise you to do some reading about the effects of high wing loading on performance. Some positives, some negatives – but not good for dogfighting. Read some of the posts here, & you’ll see that those who know far more than I do are saying the same.
just to add to your post- high wing loading is excellent for bomb trucks like the Jaguar and Tornado. everyone knows that they’re basically flying bricks and very stable at low level, excellent for bombing missions where they fly nape of the earth, and where wind gusts could make for a really bumpy and rough ride.
if it ever came down to a one-on-one with a nimble dogfighter, unless the piloting skills were special, they’d be downed.
could you do a comparison of the wing-loading of the Jag and Tornado with the F-16 Block 60 ?
21AnkushBut the Bison then seems to have lacked some of the caveats offered by the others such as large external fuel tanks, a decent rwr, and an integrated self protection jammer. And their choice in radars for the Bison also negated its chances of integrating in any true off the shelf bvr choice other than the R-77.
you got it wrong about the supposed lack of a decent RWR..it has the Tarang RWR, something that India developed and is also used on the Su-30MKI. also, the Bison carries the same type of external tanks that the Bis variant or any other MiG-21 variant does.
21AnkushIn fact, and as I have repeatedly posted the rafale, lost “face” (and the game) during the 3 encounters with the HAF. I had the chance to speak to some pilots and more or less that is the case.
Sorry abt that mes amis
The Rafale was also my own personal favorite.
could you elaborate a bit more ? Did the Rafale fare poorly against F-16 Block 50s ?
21AnkushStrange. Nobody mentioned the Jaguar…
A sturdy, reliable CAs/Strike aircraft that proved its reliability and efficiency more than once. Frankly I miss it…
BTW is it still under production in India or as the lines been closed ? :confused:
the final Jaguars of the 37 (20 Single seaters and 17 twin seaters, to be used for a dual training/night attack role) that were ordered by IAF, have been built and handed over, so as of now, the line is closed.the Jaguar line at HAL will be replaced by the Hawk.
sadly for the RAF, budget constraints meant that a fit and fighting Jaguar force had to be prematurely retired, whereas they could’ve been used in Afghanistan, and was one of the most cost effective of RAF’s fighters, especially more so than the Tornados which cost a lot more per flying hour.
the Jaguar’s hot and high performance was an issue, at least in IAF service, where pilots always hoped for a more powerful engine, and there was a proposal to re-engine the IAF Jaguar fleet with a new Honeywell F-125 engine in place of the RR Adours. but, in its role as a CAS and tactical strike, it is a great strike fighter.
21AnkushBTW, thanks to Ante_climax for the link that showed the cost difference between HAL built Hawks and BAe built Hawks. I hope the same is true of the MRCA winner as well, so India could possibly procure more to beef up its squadron levels by 2020 to at least 40.
21AnkushNot very likely. with Rafale getting AESA and possibly new engines etc.
no new engines. and looking at the prices that India has been paying for the C-130J and P-8Is, I don’t think that any US sourced system is cheap as far as sales to India are concerned- they include first time set up of infrastructure costs, training, etc. and in hte case of a fighter, extensive logistical setup..the only plus point is that they go through very quickly with no middle men involved.
21AnkushHas not been finalized does not mean proposals were not made. It only says plans. 😉
thats not what you claimed. you claimed that the IAF already has chosen ASRAAMs for the Mirage upgrade and that the F-16 could use it as well to maximize commonality, whereas for all you know, the IAF may ask for AIM-9Xs with JHMCS if it chooses the F-16IN..you’re purely speculating and using a rather spurious Wikipedia entry as proof, when no such deal exists.
21Ankushanyway, something related to the Tejas after nearly 4 pages of discussions over the MRCA.
cross posted from BR forum
LCA Tejas crosses 1000 sorties landmark
Written on January 22, 2009 – 5:31 pm | by Frontier India Strategic and Defence |
With a thundering roar the lithe grey Tejas prototype aircraft Serial number KH 2012 took to the air, a sight which the residents of the Bangalore have got well used to now. But this sortie was different – a landmark in Indian aeronautical history for, on this day the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, Bangalore built Tejas crossed the 1000 sorties mark. A thousand sorties is a very significant milestone in an aircraft’s development programme. and is indicative of the level of maturity the aircraft and the systems have achieved.The fact that the programme achieved this milestone without any major set backs bears testimony to the skill and competence of all the programme components. In the words of the Programme Director, Mr PS Subramanyam, the Tejas team has become a role model for executing large R&D programmes in the country.
Since the first flight by Technology Demonstrator-1 on 04 Jan 2001 which lasted just 18 minutes, the Tejas programme has come a long way. It was conceived as an ambitious attempt to leap frog nearly 40 years of neglect of Indian aeronautical design. The goal of designing and developing of a state of the art fighter aircraft for use by the Indian Air Force required the bridging of a huge technology gap in multiple disciplines. A cautious phase wise development approach was adopted. The first phase (Full Scale Engineering Development Phase I) was essentially aimed at demonstration of four key technologies namely the quadruplex redundant digital fly by wire system, an all glass cockpit, carbon composite primary structures and microprocessor based control of utility systems.
After having successfully completed the FSED-Phase-I the programme is currently in FSED-Phase-II where in the objective is to deliver an operationally capable aircraft for induction into the IAF and later into the Indian Navy. A total of seven aircraft are currently part of the flight test programme. These include three aircraft from the Technology Demonstration phase (TD1, TD2 and PV1) which continue to undertake flight test tasks of generic nature. The bulk of the workload is however shared by the follow on aircraft (PV2, PV3 and LSP1 and LSP2) which incorporate incremental changes towards the final desired equipment fit. The basic glass cockpit has been tested extensively along with some of the operational sensors like the DASH helmet and Litening laser designation pod.
Initial firing of the R-73 air to air missile has been undertaken and the remaining sensors like the multi-mode radar would also become available very shortly. In the past twelve months itself, the Tejas has been successfully operated from searing hot central Indian airfields at the height of summer as well as the cold and rarified environs of a Ladakh winter. The bulk of the promised flight envelope has also been extensively probed. The Tejas is slated to enter operational service with the IAF by Dec 2010 in the Initial Operational Capability configuration.
Speaking to members of “Team Tejas” after the flight, Capt JA Maolankar who is the Chief Test pilot of the National Flight Test Centre said “For a project that has so ambitiously pushed the envelope of indigenous technology, the results have been world class in many key areas. The aircraft is a pleasure to fly and has demonstrated enviably long range legs for an aircraft so small. The induction of most of the major new technologies has been remarkably smooth and the programme boasts of an enviable safety record. Great challenges lie ahead, especially when we take this aircraft to sea in the form of the LCA (Navy)”.
by the way, Capt. JA Maolankar is a Navy deputed Test Pilot and his remarks on the Tejas being a pleasure to fly and the range of the fighter is noteworthy.
21AnkushI agree !
But on an added note. You can always get Russian AESA tech with the PAK FA which will only be a couple of years away from the MRCA induction.
Americans will probably not object integration of European or Israeli missiles. 🙂
In future we can use our own radar, when we attain the capability. 🙂
In short India should do more R&D with Israel, who have a mature aerospace industry in that regard.
if India can’t get AESA technology from this contract, why the hell should they pay nearly $10-15 billion for a US fighter when there are others that’ll happily give it to get the order ?
21AnkushTiny procurement is almost same as non procurement. The Block 60s in UAE and the F 16 IN will share many things that the difference won’t be that signifcant either.
aah..you contradict yourself..if tiny procurement is almost the same as non-procurement, then the F-16IN itself suffers from that..the USAF under no circumstance is going to order brand new F-16s upto the IN standard, are they?
I’m pretty sure that the Gripen NG will secure some export orders even if it doesn’t in India, probably in numbers, almost on par with the export orders for F-16 Block 60s.
Familiarity breeds contempt.
not necessarily..I’m sure most of the IAF guys who’re very familiar with the Mirage-2000 sing its praises, as will I. 🙂
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