21AnkushThat £1 billion pounds of ‘aid’ the UK gives them every year is coming in very handy. Just a shame it’s not spent on kit for UK Forces.
hardly compensates for the centuries of looting of wealth and resources that the British did in India..:rolleyes:
21AnkushTrue for Yugoslav AF. Not true for Iraqi AF, their MiG-29s were delivered shortly before and the training was not quite complete at the time.
According to AWAST from February 1991, ”Iraqi MiG-29 pilots in particular appeared not to know how to fly as demonstrated by an early engagement in which a MiG-29 pilot shot down his wingman and then flew his own aircraft into the ground some 30 seconds later. Iraqi MiG-29 pilots reportedly flew with the air-intercept radar button taped down to lock onto the first aircraft detected and continually depressed the trigger to fire their weapons as soon as they acquired a target. Apparently, all Iraqi fighter pilots practiced these techniques, for when they managed to lock onto coalition aircraft, they launched their missiles at extreme ranges and missed every time”.
Does not sound like creme de le creme of Iraqi AF pilots to me..
Flex, you might be interested in reading this article by IAF Air Marshal P.Rajkumar, who was in Iraq for training their pilots in the early 1980s. his impression of the Iraqi pilots was this
“On the whole the trainees achieved an average standard of tactical flying skills. Some of them who came from a rural background took longer to grasp the finer points of flying which was compounded by their poor knowledge of English. Basic flying skills they certainly had but I was not too sure how much of tactics and strategy they understood. If they were properly motivated and led they had the potential to acquit themselves creditably in operations.”
21AnkushTrue for Yugoslav AF. Not true for Iraqi AF, their MiG-29s were delivered shortly before and the training was not quite complete at the time.
According to AWAST from February 1991, ”Iraqi MiG-29 pilots in particular appeared not to know how to fly as demonstrated by an early engagement in which a MiG-29 pilot shot down his wingman and then flew his own aircraft into the ground some 30 seconds later. Iraqi MiG-29 pilots reportedly flew with the air-intercept radar button taped down to lock onto the first aircraft detected and continually depressed the trigger to fire their weapons as soon as they acquired a target. Apparently, all Iraqi fighter pilots practiced these techniques, for when they managed to lock onto coalition aircraft, they launched their missiles at extreme ranges and missed every time”.
Does not sound like creme de le creme of Iraqi AF pilots to me..
Flex, you might be interested in reading this article by IAF Air Marshal P.Rajkumar, who was in Iraq for training their pilots in the early 1980s. his impression of the Iraqi pilots was this
“On the whole the trainees achieved an average standard of tactical flying skills. Some of them who came from a rural background took longer to grasp the finer points of flying which was compounded by their poor knowledge of English. Basic flying skills they certainly had but I was not too sure how much of tactics and strategy they understood. If they were properly motivated and led they had the potential to acquit themselves creditably in operations.”
21AnkushI think it would be wise to limit the P-8 I purchases to 10-12 and go for the Kawasaki P-1. In Octobers dti it was noted that the running cost and unit prices of the Japanese plane are much less and the capabilities almost the same.
I don’t think Japan exports any weapons systems that could be used in a war..besides, IN has ZERO experience working with Japanese aerospace companies or defence contractors. its better to standardise the fleet with one LRMR..
21AnkushI think it would be wise to limit the P-8 I purchases to 10-12 and go for the Kawasaki P-1. In Octobers dti it was noted that the running cost and unit prices of the Japanese plane are much less and the capabilities almost the same.
I don’t think Japan exports any weapons systems that could be used in a war..besides, IN has ZERO experience working with Japanese aerospace companies or defence contractors. its better to standardise the fleet with one LRMR..
21AnkushSouth Korea orders prototype F/A-50 fighters from KAI
DATE:07/01/09
SOURCE:Flight International
South Korea orders KAI F/A-50 light attack fighter prototypes
By Siva GovindasamySouth Korea has asked Korea Aerospace Industries to develop a prototype of a light attack version of its T-50 advanced jet trainer, with a production contract likely to be awarded after the aircraft has been tested by the nation’s air force.
Under the 400 billion won ($306 million) contract, KAI will upgrade four T-50s to the F/A-50 standard and deliver them to the South Korean air force by 2012. It then expects the service to order around 60 F/A-50s for delivery from 2013 to replace its ageing Northrop F-5s, and to eventually buy up to 150 of the type.
KAI has been pushing Seoul to finance the F/A-50’s development for several years as it wants to keep its T-50 production line open beyond 2012, when the last South Korean aircraft currently under contract will be delivered. Its air force has ordered 82 T-50s, including 50 advanced jet trainers, 22 armed A-50s and 10 for its aerobatics display team. The service could order another 70 trainer and weaponised variants, say sources, and the T-50 is also in contention in several international tenders.
Tenders were issued last year by KAI to suppliers of radar warning receivers, precision-guided bombs, countermeasures dispensers, advanced tactical datalinks and weapons management systems for the F/A-50. Known armaments will include bombs equipped with Boeing Joint Direct Attack Munition guidance kits and Raytheon’s AGM-65 Maverick air-to-surface missile.
The F/A-50 is also likely to use an EL/M-2032 radar supplied by Israel’s Elta Systems. The radar selection has been a bone of contention with Lockheed Martin, which helped to develop the T-50 and had wanted KAI to use its own APG-67(V)4 on the F/A-50. Seoul had preferred Selex Sensors and Airborne Systems’ Vixen 500E active electronically scanned array, but is barred from sharing the T-50’s source codes with non-US companies. That led to it choosing the Israeli radar, which will be installed on the F/A-50 by a US company, meeting US government and Lockheed conditions.KAI and Lockheed are jointly marketing the T-50 outside South Korea, with the aircraft locked in fierce competition with Alenia Aermacchi’s M-346 in Greece, Singapore and the United Arab Emirates. The companies are also promoting the aircraft in other European and Asian countries with advanced trainer requirements. Industry sources say the F/A-50 will also be offered to countries that require light attack aircraft after 2013.
21AnkushSouth Korea orders prototype F/A-50 fighters from KAI
DATE:07/01/09
SOURCE:Flight International
South Korea orders KAI F/A-50 light attack fighter prototypes
By Siva GovindasamySouth Korea has asked Korea Aerospace Industries to develop a prototype of a light attack version of its T-50 advanced jet trainer, with a production contract likely to be awarded after the aircraft has been tested by the nation’s air force.
Under the 400 billion won ($306 million) contract, KAI will upgrade four T-50s to the F/A-50 standard and deliver them to the South Korean air force by 2012. It then expects the service to order around 60 F/A-50s for delivery from 2013 to replace its ageing Northrop F-5s, and to eventually buy up to 150 of the type.
KAI has been pushing Seoul to finance the F/A-50’s development for several years as it wants to keep its T-50 production line open beyond 2012, when the last South Korean aircraft currently under contract will be delivered. Its air force has ordered 82 T-50s, including 50 advanced jet trainers, 22 armed A-50s and 10 for its aerobatics display team. The service could order another 70 trainer and weaponised variants, say sources, and the T-50 is also in contention in several international tenders.
Tenders were issued last year by KAI to suppliers of radar warning receivers, precision-guided bombs, countermeasures dispensers, advanced tactical datalinks and weapons management systems for the F/A-50. Known armaments will include bombs equipped with Boeing Joint Direct Attack Munition guidance kits and Raytheon’s AGM-65 Maverick air-to-surface missile.
The F/A-50 is also likely to use an EL/M-2032 radar supplied by Israel’s Elta Systems. The radar selection has been a bone of contention with Lockheed Martin, which helped to develop the T-50 and had wanted KAI to use its own APG-67(V)4 on the F/A-50. Seoul had preferred Selex Sensors and Airborne Systems’ Vixen 500E active electronically scanned array, but is barred from sharing the T-50’s source codes with non-US companies. That led to it choosing the Israeli radar, which will be installed on the F/A-50 by a US company, meeting US government and Lockheed conditions.KAI and Lockheed are jointly marketing the T-50 outside South Korea, with the aircraft locked in fierce competition with Alenia Aermacchi’s M-346 in Greece, Singapore and the United Arab Emirates. The companies are also promoting the aircraft in other European and Asian countries with advanced trainer requirements. Industry sources say the F/A-50 will also be offered to countries that require light attack aircraft after 2013.
21AnkushThings looking more positively for super bug in MRCA… i think if will be fly-off between Bug and MiG.. anyway ill stop derailing topic off track.
Do we know if any components will be made in india under licence???
Boeing has started to look at partners for the 30% offset requirement that it has to fulfill and these are for structural and avionics components for the P-8I. Boeing also expects IN to place more orders for the P-8I, using the options for 4-8 more P-8Is that it has with this contract. considering how pitifully poor IN’s LRMR asset numbers are, it needs at least 20 P-8Is to be able to patrol the huge area that is India’s territorial waters.
interestingly, India has not yet made any request to Boeing about integrating the Brahmos anti-ship missile on the P-8I and the sonobuoys, torpedoes and AGM-84 Harpoons will be purchased through a FMS program, whereas the P-8Is have been purchased from Boeing directly.
21AnkushThings looking more positively for super bug in MRCA… i think if will be fly-off between Bug and MiG.. anyway ill stop derailing topic off track.
Do we know if any components will be made in india under licence???
Boeing has started to look at partners for the 30% offset requirement that it has to fulfill and these are for structural and avionics components for the P-8I. Boeing also expects IN to place more orders for the P-8I, using the options for 4-8 more P-8Is that it has with this contract. considering how pitifully poor IN’s LRMR asset numbers are, it needs at least 20 P-8Is to be able to patrol the huge area that is India’s territorial waters.
interestingly, India has not yet made any request to Boeing about integrating the Brahmos anti-ship missile on the P-8I and the sonobuoys, torpedoes and AGM-84 Harpoons will be purchased through a FMS program, whereas the P-8Is have been purchased from Boeing directly.
21Ankushthere is a phrase called.. calling the kettle black.
designing something based on something existing is common.
you can find plenty of examples in the Soviet Union.
now China is found to be copying South African weapons as well..:rolleyes:
I remember a similar thing being mentioned by Russians as well, where China would approach them to purchase some systems, but only be interested in acquiring a handful, which immediately made the Russians suspicious that the aim was to reverse engineer them eventually and build Chinese clones.
China attempts to copy South African weapons now
BY : United Press International
China has had a number of dealings with South African weapons manufacturers over the past decade, most of which have not resulted in actual weapons purchases. However, several recent China-made military technologies bear suspicious resemblances to their South African counterparts.
In 2008, China acquired a fourth-generation air-to-air missile equipped with a thrust-vector control engine. The PL-10, or PL-ASR, is comparable to the U.S.-made AIM-9X air-to-air missile, or AAM.
According to a representative from the South African Denel Group, the PL-ASR is almost a replica of its A-Darter AAM. The Denel representative told the author during an interview in Cape Town that the Chinese had contacted the company in 2001 to explore the possibility of importing fifth-generation A-Darter infrared-guided AAMs, which included a TVC propulsion system and pilot helmet-mounted displays.
In the end, Denel did not sell the technologies to China, which it regards as its key competitor in selling air-to-air missiles on the African market. Company engineers were therefore surprised to find that the Chinese PL-ASR is nearly identical to the A-Darter in exterior structure, tail engine and even the diameter of the missile body.
The company strongly suspects that China reverse-engineered its A-Darter AAM after acquiring its technological materials.
This fits a pattern that China has followed in acquiring military technologies from many sources. When seeking a new technology, China contacts a foreign manufacturer and requests substantial technical information about its product, supposedly with the intent to buy. Instead, Chinese engineers study the materials and imitate the relevant concepts and designs.
Something similar occurred in the course of China’s development of a combat helicopter. In 1996 China and South Africa signed a memorandum to jointly develop a combat helicopter, when China was in the process of building its ZW-10 helicopter.After being given a focused inspection of the Rooivalk combat helicopter’s subsystems, China wanted to purchase one helicopter from Denel, but the South African company considered the purchase of a single aircraft the equivalent of giving away its technologies. As a result, Denel decided not to sell China the helicopter and the cooperation came to an end.
Another item that appears to have been copied from South Africa is the optical-electronic pod on China’s ZW-9 combat helicopter, which bears a strong resemblance to the Leo-II serial O/E pods produced by the Zeiss Company.
Technical experts from the Zeiss Company told the author that about seven to eight years ago Zeiss exported two sets of an earlier variant of the Leo-II O/E pods to China, intended for use on helicopters. According to the source, the Chinese side explained that they needed a large number of this type of O/E pods for civilian helicopters, and therefore would like to purchase two sets initially for testing purposes. The source said the Chinese took no further action after receiving the test pods.
Currently, both the ZW-10 and the night version, the ZW-9, are equipped with O/E detectors very similar to those on the Leo-II.
China’s interest is not only in the O/E pod technologies used for helicopters. Chinese manufacturers have also engaged in active discussions with South Africa in hopes of acquiring TV video cameras and second-generation thermal imaging cameras used in Denel’s Seeker II unmanned air vehicle surveillance system.
The top military technology that China aspires to acquire from South Africa is without doubt the unmanned air vehicle. China’s New Era Group Corporation had several rounds of negotiations with Denel on the possibility of producing in China two types of Denel UAVs, which were on display at the 2006 Zhuhai Air Show, called the Golden Eagle and the Seeker II.
China hopes to obtain the technologies to assemble these two UAVs domestically. However, according to a source from the Denel Group, negotiations on the UAV deals have come to a halt and the company has decided that unless substantial progress is made on these negotiations, the company no longer wants to spend time dealing with the Chinese.
Denel had a similar experience in trying to negotiate a deal with Chinese company Norinco for its Mokopa anti-tank missiles. The Chinese company expressed an interest in importing Denel’s technologies, but once again the negotiations ended with no result.
Since 2007, Norinco has attempted to contact the Denel Group again, saying that it wants to import the company’s G5 155-mm howitzer ammunition handling system. But Denel is not eager to enter into an agreement with China on this project; Chinese-made 155-mm howitzers have already appeared in quite a number of countries in Northern Africa, including Algeria, Sudan and Egypt.
The source from Denel did disclose that the company has successfully completed a deal with China for its 35-mm multirole machine gun. This technology in fact was exported to China 10 years ago. China seems to have upgraded this 35-mm gun to an air-defense machine gun.
China’s New Era Group Corporation has also been negotiating with Denel for the transfer of African Eagle UAV technologies. The Chinese introductory brochure of the cooperation program claims that the African Eagle UAV is capable of taking a payload of 500 kilograms, which could be six Mokopa anti-tank missiles or two Umbani MK 81 precision-guided bombs. The theoretical combat radius of the African Eagle is 750 kilometers.
China also hopes to obtain the South African Angel high-altitude and high-speed UAV attacker system. This attacker UAV is capable of carrying precision-guided weapons and attacking targets 1,400 kilometers away. The UAV is also capable of carrying A-Darter AAMs to launch unmanned aerial attacks.
The Angel attacker and reconnaissance UAV is equipped with aperture radar and is capable of conducting tactical reconnaissance missions. It can also be fitted with Mokopa active laser-guided anti-tank missiles to attack armored combat groups.
Nonetheless, the source from Denel disclosed that no substantial progress has been made on this project, indicating it may end up as one more failed deal. It remains to be seen whether China’s latest explorations with the company will yield technological information it can convert to its own purposes, however.
—
(Andrei Chang is editor-in-chief of Kanwa Defense Review Monthly, registered in Toronto, Canada.)
21Ankushthere is a phrase called.. calling the kettle black.
designing something based on something existing is common.
you can find plenty of examples in the Soviet Union.
now China is found to be copying South African weapons as well..:rolleyes:
I remember a similar thing being mentioned by Russians as well, where China would approach them to purchase some systems, but only be interested in acquiring a handful, which immediately made the Russians suspicious that the aim was to reverse engineer them eventually and build Chinese clones.
China attempts to copy South African weapons now
BY : United Press International
China has had a number of dealings with South African weapons manufacturers over the past decade, most of which have not resulted in actual weapons purchases. However, several recent China-made military technologies bear suspicious resemblances to their South African counterparts.
In 2008, China acquired a fourth-generation air-to-air missile equipped with a thrust-vector control engine. The PL-10, or PL-ASR, is comparable to the U.S.-made AIM-9X air-to-air missile, or AAM.
According to a representative from the South African Denel Group, the PL-ASR is almost a replica of its A-Darter AAM. The Denel representative told the author during an interview in Cape Town that the Chinese had contacted the company in 2001 to explore the possibility of importing fifth-generation A-Darter infrared-guided AAMs, which included a TVC propulsion system and pilot helmet-mounted displays.
In the end, Denel did not sell the technologies to China, which it regards as its key competitor in selling air-to-air missiles on the African market. Company engineers were therefore surprised to find that the Chinese PL-ASR is nearly identical to the A-Darter in exterior structure, tail engine and even the diameter of the missile body.
The company strongly suspects that China reverse-engineered its A-Darter AAM after acquiring its technological materials.
This fits a pattern that China has followed in acquiring military technologies from many sources. When seeking a new technology, China contacts a foreign manufacturer and requests substantial technical information about its product, supposedly with the intent to buy. Instead, Chinese engineers study the materials and imitate the relevant concepts and designs.
Something similar occurred in the course of China’s development of a combat helicopter. In 1996 China and South Africa signed a memorandum to jointly develop a combat helicopter, when China was in the process of building its ZW-10 helicopter.After being given a focused inspection of the Rooivalk combat helicopter’s subsystems, China wanted to purchase one helicopter from Denel, but the South African company considered the purchase of a single aircraft the equivalent of giving away its technologies. As a result, Denel decided not to sell China the helicopter and the cooperation came to an end.
Another item that appears to have been copied from South Africa is the optical-electronic pod on China’s ZW-9 combat helicopter, which bears a strong resemblance to the Leo-II serial O/E pods produced by the Zeiss Company.
Technical experts from the Zeiss Company told the author that about seven to eight years ago Zeiss exported two sets of an earlier variant of the Leo-II O/E pods to China, intended for use on helicopters. According to the source, the Chinese side explained that they needed a large number of this type of O/E pods for civilian helicopters, and therefore would like to purchase two sets initially for testing purposes. The source said the Chinese took no further action after receiving the test pods.
Currently, both the ZW-10 and the night version, the ZW-9, are equipped with O/E detectors very similar to those on the Leo-II.
China’s interest is not only in the O/E pod technologies used for helicopters. Chinese manufacturers have also engaged in active discussions with South Africa in hopes of acquiring TV video cameras and second-generation thermal imaging cameras used in Denel’s Seeker II unmanned air vehicle surveillance system.
The top military technology that China aspires to acquire from South Africa is without doubt the unmanned air vehicle. China’s New Era Group Corporation had several rounds of negotiations with Denel on the possibility of producing in China two types of Denel UAVs, which were on display at the 2006 Zhuhai Air Show, called the Golden Eagle and the Seeker II.
China hopes to obtain the technologies to assemble these two UAVs domestically. However, according to a source from the Denel Group, negotiations on the UAV deals have come to a halt and the company has decided that unless substantial progress is made on these negotiations, the company no longer wants to spend time dealing with the Chinese.
Denel had a similar experience in trying to negotiate a deal with Chinese company Norinco for its Mokopa anti-tank missiles. The Chinese company expressed an interest in importing Denel’s technologies, but once again the negotiations ended with no result.
Since 2007, Norinco has attempted to contact the Denel Group again, saying that it wants to import the company’s G5 155-mm howitzer ammunition handling system. But Denel is not eager to enter into an agreement with China on this project; Chinese-made 155-mm howitzers have already appeared in quite a number of countries in Northern Africa, including Algeria, Sudan and Egypt.
The source from Denel did disclose that the company has successfully completed a deal with China for its 35-mm multirole machine gun. This technology in fact was exported to China 10 years ago. China seems to have upgraded this 35-mm gun to an air-defense machine gun.
China’s New Era Group Corporation has also been negotiating with Denel for the transfer of African Eagle UAV technologies. The Chinese introductory brochure of the cooperation program claims that the African Eagle UAV is capable of taking a payload of 500 kilograms, which could be six Mokopa anti-tank missiles or two Umbani MK 81 precision-guided bombs. The theoretical combat radius of the African Eagle is 750 kilometers.
China also hopes to obtain the South African Angel high-altitude and high-speed UAV attacker system. This attacker UAV is capable of carrying precision-guided weapons and attacking targets 1,400 kilometers away. The UAV is also capable of carrying A-Darter AAMs to launch unmanned aerial attacks.
The Angel attacker and reconnaissance UAV is equipped with aperture radar and is capable of conducting tactical reconnaissance missions. It can also be fitted with Mokopa active laser-guided anti-tank missiles to attack armored combat groups.
Nonetheless, the source from Denel disclosed that no substantial progress has been made on this project, indicating it may end up as one more failed deal. It remains to be seen whether China’s latest explorations with the company will yield technological information it can convert to its own purposes, however.
—
(Andrei Chang is editor-in-chief of Kanwa Defense Review Monthly, registered in Toronto, Canada.)
21AnkushPoint 2 about India not being able to afford JSF is utter nonsense.
but F-35 will not be available to anyone other than the current customers till 2016 or later, which is too late for the IAF. the MRCA needs to join the IAF by 2013.
secondly, will the US transfer technology to India when it was not a partner in the JSF ? I don’t see how they’d allow India to get major ToT and licence building of it.
otherwise, from what i’ve heard its the IN which is more interested in the F-35 rather than the IAF, which has the PAK-FA, LCA Mk.2 and MRCA competition to keep it occupied till 2020.
21AnkushPoint 2 about India not being able to afford JSF is utter nonsense.
but F-35 will not be available to anyone other than the current customers till 2016 or later, which is too late for the IAF. the MRCA needs to join the IAF by 2013.
secondly, will the US transfer technology to India when it was not a partner in the JSF ? I don’t see how they’d allow India to get major ToT and licence building of it.
otherwise, from what i’ve heard its the IN which is more interested in the F-35 rather than the IAF, which has the PAK-FA, LCA Mk.2 and MRCA competition to keep it occupied till 2020.
21Ankushone of you Indian posters must have an F-35 in Indian markings somewhere don’t ya 🙂 (or any other MRCA aircraft?)
here’s one of the MRCA candidates (F-16IN) with their models in IAF markings..the F-35 pic only shows the under-side roundels though.
link to pics from AeroIndia 2005
you’ll definitely see better pics from the up-coming Aero India 2009.
21Ankushone of you Indian posters must have an F-35 in Indian markings somewhere don’t ya 🙂 (or any other MRCA aircraft?)
here’s one of the MRCA candidates (F-16IN) with their models in IAF markings..the F-35 pic only shows the under-side roundels though.
link to pics from AeroIndia 2005
you’ll definitely see better pics from the up-coming Aero India 2009.
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