blatant bs.
people seem to think that China hasn’t progressed beyond the 1960’s. Its now 2008 in case you haven’t learned. China rarely orders anything new from Russia, and the things they do order, aren’t the most advanced.

Built in China products have steadily become on par, if not superior to their Russian counter parts. That is why China is building their own Type 99, not ordering T-90s, why it is building its own new ships rather than ordering new ones. Aircraft that once had Russian components are now or will be 100% Chinese.

The same can’t be true with India, which takes decades to even decide what it wants.

you can kid yourself all you want, but a lof of Chinese advances are made on the shoulders of someone else’s fundamental R&D. there would be no J-10 without the Israeli Lavi, no Chinese turbojets or turbofans without British and Russian copies, and even Chinese radars are all based on Russian technology..missiles, their seekers, etc. are all essentially modified and upgraded or simply reverse engineered Russian or Israeli copies..their KJ-2000 AWACS is basd on a Il-76 platform and if they didn’t need IL-76, they’d be building their own Il-76 class transport, instead of ordering more from Russia.

As for building new ships, why were they ordering Sovremenny class destroyers ? Because its a class of ship that they want to be able to build indigenously eventually, but they require Russian equipment initially..even India has its own indigenous class of warships that are even larger than the Talwar class it imports from Russia.

besides, its accepted the world over that China doesn’t respect anyone’s IP..from the cheapest knockoffs to even cars and fighters, they will copy designs that are not theirs and eventually market it as their own. There is a BIG difference in how IP is viewed in India and China. you won’t find a single private company in India blatantly copying a western design and passing it off as its own whereas I’ve seen how in a Chinese Auto-show, GM executives simply looked on as a Chinese copy of a GM car was on display. Chinese laws will not protect their IP and they’ve resigned to that.

Northrop proposed E-2 Hawkeye for Gorshy. But then Navy rejected because its endurance was found to be just 1 hour. Same thing could happen to SH. at somepoint payload, fuel, endurance becomes the main limiting factor.

Suppose if a Mig-29K carries 3 to 4 ASMs and takesoff from Gorshy and then lands back. Is it necessary to drop some or all of the ASMs for landing? something similar like this happens with USN Fighters too right?

the bring back load on a carrier fighter would have to depend mostly on how much stress its landing gear and wing structures can take..beef it up adequately and it shouldn’t be that much of a problem. thats one of the reasons that navalising fighters ends up increasing weight, which in turn requires added thrust and lift, all of which requires some degree of re-design.

Thankfully, China is already out of the control of Russia in military hardware..

Hope the news of buying 50 Su-33 for carrier is just rumour and developing J-13 is true.

As for the 38 IL-76 and IL-78 transport plane.. Forget it, China is going to develop itself.

China still depends on Russia for a lot of its hardware and pretty much everything developed by it is a reverse engineering or mod of original Russian equipment. while this allows them to escape the escalation issue that India is facing increasingly, it doens’t mean that they’ll never face it..China will still look to Russia to provide it advanced weaponry that it will copy and indigenise later. Of course, there will be more and more stuff that is developed completely within China, but don’t kid yourself that they are free of their dependence on Russia for advanced weaponry.

i thinks its obvious that Russia is trying to milk India out like a cow.
they should have went for the american offer for the ex-USS Kity Hawk and Super Hornet.
there are more aircraft available for conventional carriers.

for the kitty hawk you have the Superbug, Rafale, F-35C, E-2C,…..
with STOBAR carriers like the Gorshkov and Kuznetsov, you dont have much choise but the SU-33 or MIG-29K.
unless SAAB or EADS design a STOBAR naval version of the Gripen NG or Typhoon.

India is already developing a naval version of the LCA, why dont they indigenuosly modify air force MIG-29’s or SU-30.
that would cost conciderably less, if you have the technological know-how 😎

I think its been made clear that the US never offered the USS Kitty Hawk and Indian Navy never even wanted it..its too large for its current needs, and rather old and outdated- to refit it back to shape would’ve cost India less than the Gorshkov but a lot of infrastructure would’ve had to be set up to be able to eveven berth such a large carrier, leave alone maintenance and other issues.

India cannot indigenously modify MiG-29s or Su-30s because it does not own the IP for these- and India is not China, to openly flout IP for a Russian fighter and not care.

Its time we Indians are Pragmatic. There is no point to keeping with the cold war stance when its been over for a decade. There is no room for ‘India was our friend’ sentiments in foriegn relations either. We have to serve our best interests and Iran is a state on its last legs, whichever way you look at it. It is going to have an eventual conflict with Israel, U.S and a possible regime change is on the cards.

Also the the much talked about Iran Pakistan India Pipe Line issue. How can you trust to have a Pipe Line running through the territory of your enemy. And also in case of Iran being in War, its enemies will target its infrastructure including the proposed pipeline. Why invest in muddy waters.

Ankush you belong to a school of thinking where everyone should act fair and friendly, the world is not like this and I am not saying we must blindly trust the Americans either. India must do what is best for India at the given moment, and in the future, in a much changed world if it means allying with Chinese then even that. Pragmatism is the KEY.

pragmatism upto a point is fine. not to a point where you alienate countries that have traditionally stood up for you.

Russia is doing the same to India now with its hard-nosed stance on price escalations, etc. and many attribute it to the kind of pragmatism and confidence that Russia now has under Putin.

yet, where at one time there was great leniency for Russian policies that could even hurt India, because of their steadfast friendship for decades, today, its giving way to a feeling of “just business” within Indian circles too as even our Navy Chief spelt out. this will hurt Russia in the long run as they’ll lose a very lucrative market and a strong ally and they’re currently being short sighted by letting it happen.

Sorry, you condemn what you don’t understand…………..BTW the American People Elected that Hypocritical American Goverment.;)

yes and we know just how popular this particular President is.

Its like this Ankush. When you are the member of an exclusive group you will have grudges and doubts about countries who are trying to get into the group. And you may try to prevent them,

Its natural and that’s what Americans did.

Now long after the nuke deal talks and India being friendly with the US. Did we not vote against Iran in UN security Council. DId our PM not say that We do not want Iran to have Nukes. That we are against the proliferation of Nuclear Weapons.

By your logic that can also be double standardish, But that’s just pragmatic foriegn policy, you do not always play fair and with the ideals of equality. We tried that a lot during the NAM days, it has got us no where, and tis time to try a different footing.

I wonder how all these other countries will fare, compared to the U.S.A of now, if they were in a similar status as the only super power. Most of them will do much worse I think. :rolleyes:

I understand Geo-politics. I just don’t like a poster who acts holier-than-thou and keeps bringing up the “if Western nations can buy US, why can’t India” arguments without even having a clue as to what has tinted India and Indians view of US policies over decades.

Scooter pretends (or is delusional) as if the US gives a damn about nukes proliferating in a neighbourhood for any other reason than geo-politics. Its not concern for fellow human beings that drives them to try and prevent Iran or North Korea from getting nukes- its geopolitics, plain and simple.

As for India and Iran, Govts. shape their policies too and I’m not saying that they don’t have double standards- they do. But that doesn’t change any argument against why the US at least till now, has not been a reliable supplier as far as India is concerned.

this short-sighted Congress govt. was coerced into voting against Iran. You can do a search on Wikipedia for “India Iran relations” and you’ll find this

Yet India managed to vote against Iran in the International Atomic Energy Agency in 2005, which took Iran’s government by surprise. A “hurt” Ali Larijani was reported as saying: “India was our friend”. [3]

As the standoff continues to develop, columnists such as Jorge Hirsch believe that unlike Russia and China, “India could indeed be bought off by US incentives like the nuclear deal, because its shortsighted leaders don’t recognize that they are committing national suicide by entering into this nuclear deal with the US.” Jorge Hirsch, interview April 12, 2006 [4]) Stephen Rademaker also acknowledged that India’s votes against Iran at the International Atomic Energy Agency were “coerced”

It was incredibly short sighted of the Congress Govt. when they voted against Iran, under US pressure. Iran has voted for India on several occasions in the past when Pakistan would try to get resolutions passed against India in the OIC. the least India could’ve done was to abstain from voting.

Sorry, I can see that nothing I say will change your prejudices………As you seem more worried about the right to have Nuclear Weapons. Then the total distruction they could cause……………..and its clear any response by me (i.e. American) would just fall on silent ears.:eek:

Maybe you should take a look are your own Morality. Before you start pointing fingers…..:p

don’t characterise my replies as being anti-American per se. I have nothing against Americans and have been in the US for a few years now. I like Americans as a people, but I don’t like some of the policies of its Govt.

Another thing- you act like you’re representative of the American people, whereas you’re not. You’re a rather poor sample of one actually. Actually, I couldn’t care less if you’re Tongan, as long as you’re defending the hypocrisy of the US Govt.