hey, if a pilot from one of these countries bails out over enemy territory.. how likely can he/she conceal himself in the other country since the face and languages are almost the same?

they’re not the same..a Pakistani pilot would speak Urdu, which is quite different from Hindi, or Punjabi or Sindhi..on the other hand, an IAF pilot would speak Hindi and probably any of 25 odd regional Indian languages..

there would be very little chances of concealment as was discovered by Pakistani para-troopers who tried a commando operation over India once..many were lynched by villagers, and that was decades ago, today with all the media, if an enemy airman was to be shot down, it would be known across the country pretty soon.

Oh dear, my beloved F-4 just made it to 4.5 generation fighter. It has carried a Litening pod and fired AAMs as well and it even has a final and proven engine, no it has 2 of theose.

there’s a lot more to it than simply fitting a LDP and A2A missiles..what materials was the F-4 made of ? metallic alloys and titanium mostly. the Tejas on the other hand has more composites than most of the currently flown 4th generation fighters. and what about the F-4’s FBW ? mechanical.
The Tejas has a quadruplex all digital FBW, 2 generations ahead of the F-4.

Russian engines coming today for intermediate jet trainer

Ravi Sharma

First flight of IJT with new AL-55I engine could take place in mid-January

AL-55I engine has a higher thrust rating than French engine

225 HJT-36s are to be produced

BANGALORE: After almost a two-year delay, Russian turbofan engines that will power the indigenous intermediate jet trainer (IJT) are scheduled to arrive here on Sunday. With stability tests and acceptance test procedures completed, the three AL-55I engines, designed and developed by Russia’s NPO Saturn, were airlifted from Zhukovsky, near Moscow. These are to be fitted on the IJT’s Prototype Trainer One (PT1).

The custom-made AL-55I (‘I’ for Indian) engine has a higher thrust rating than the French-made Snecma Larzac 04H20 that is now flying the two IJT prototypes. Known as the Hindustan Jet Trainer-36 (HJT-36), the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited-designed IJT will become the backbone of the Air Force’s stage II combat pilot training programme, replacing HJT-16 or Kiran. Around 225 HJT-36s are to be produced, for serving the Navy, the IAF and its Surya Kiran aerobatic team.

Official sources at HAL said the IJT’s first flight with the Russian engine could take place in mid-January. With integration using a prototype, yellow-banded engine completed, officials estimate that one week will be sufficient to fit the new engine on PT1. Flying is expected to start after two engine ground runs.

Though HAL has planned to do around 50 sorties for spin trails, spin chute, and documentation of the performance of the aircraft, to write performance manuals and graphs, the officials hope to finish the tasks with 28-30 sorties, by July 2009. Thereafter, the aircraft will go in for hot weather trails and fine-tuning and closing of all on-board systems.

The only blip is that AL-55I, at around 950 kg, is heavier by 200 kg than promised. The Russians have formulated a plan that could at best cut 100 kg.

PT1, which has not flown since it careened off the runway after its canopy inadvertently opened while the pilot was taking off in February 2007, will get airborne first. PT2, now the only flying IJT, will then be put down for a month to integrate AL-55I. The Air Force, which was originally scheduled to get HJT-36 by 2005-06, can now expect to get them in June 2010.

as someone on BR forums pointed out, note slyly Ravi Sharma mentions the 200 kg additional weight on the AL-55I as being being a “blip”, whereas the same weight issue with the Kaveri is mocked in several of his articles. and the AL-225I is only a scaled down version of the AL-31F, and Russia has several decades of turbofan designing experience to boot.

Actually, the HJT-36 has been delayed primarily because of the engine issue..HAL had completed the design and readied prototypes within 40 months of the begin of the program. but from a long term perspective, its a good thing that the AL-55I has been used, considering its higher thrust as compared to the Larzac.

the Kaveri K-9+ was slightly heavier than the design intent and is producing slightly less thrust as compared to the design intent in afterburner- the aim for the JV was to overcome the issues that were preventing it from meeting its design intent.

this is an old article on the Kaveri, but gives very good information on it.

Kaveri engine gathers momentum
Written on July 29, 2007 – 1:04 pm | by Frontier India Strategic and Defence

In an exclusive to Frontier India (FIDSNS), Gas Turbine Research Engine (GTRE) has described its future plans with Kaveri engine project. The Kaveri project has progressed significantly over last few years. The project has now been conceived on two different platforms: K9+ Program and the K 10 Program.

K9 + Program

This program has been conceptualized with a view to prove the concept of complete design and gain hand-on experience of aircraft engine integration and flight trials to cover a defined truncated flight envelope prior to the launch of production version of K10 Std. engine. This exercise would generate a great deal of confidence in the minds of entire scientific community of GTRE and associated work centers. The PDC for K9+ is June 2008.

As compared to final Kaveri Engine, K9+ engine has more weight, slightly lower After Burner thrust as compared to the design intent. At the moment, GTRE has been able to achieve and demonstrate the required dry thrust at Bangalore condition consistently. The various prototypes of the engine are undergoing various engine level tests, safety related tests, component level tests, endurance tests which are mandatory before first flight of the K9 + engine with PV1 of LCA.

The core engine (Kabini engine) has been planned to be sent to CIAM Russia for altitude tests by end Aug 2007. The official Altitude Test and Flying Test Bed for K9+ engines is planned for Nov 2007. All this will culminate in integrating the Kaveri K9 + engine with PV1 followed by first interim flight by June 2008.

Kaveri Engine Under Testing at GTRE (Click to expand)

K 10 program

This programme has been planned now to be progressed embedding Joint Venture (JV) partnership with one of the selected engine houses ie. either NPO Saturn, Russia or SNECMA, France. Presently, Technical Evaluation of the proposals are on-going. After completion of Technical Evaluation, Price Negotiation Committee Meeting is to be organized for selecting the JV partner. The engine which will be developed under Joint Partnership will be the engine for its fitment in the ‘LCA’.

K-10 programme is for the final production standard Kaveri engine. Compared to K9 + engine, this will have less weight and more reheat thrust along with certain other changes to meet the original design intent.

The Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine Project

Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine is a derivative of Aero version of Kaveri Engine. This derived engine will be used for Ship Propulsion. The technology demonstration for KMGT has already been completed and 1st phase of testing was also completed at user’s place i.e. Indian Navy at Naval Dockyard, Vishakhapatnam ND (V), where GTRE demonstrated the shaft power generation of 3.2 MW (limited power generation due to non-availability of power turbine blades of required material). However at GTRE test bed, the Kaveri Marine Gas Generator has already been tested generating power to the extent of 10.6 MW. This will be further ascertained during 2nd Phase of testing of Gas Generator along with Power Turbine (i.e. full KMGT) after the power turbine blades of required material are available in Aug 2007. The 2nd Phase of testing will be completed at ND (V) in Dec 2007.

link

NEW DELHI: Even as tensions with Pakistan persist in the wake of 26/11, India is now poised to ink its biggest-ever defence deal with US: the around Rs 8,500-crore contract for the supply of eight Boeing P-8I long-range maritime reconnaissance (LRMR) aircraft for the Navy.

“Virtually all the steps” required for the contract to be signed, including tabling of it in the Cabinet Committee on Security for approval, have been completed, said sources on Friday.

The first of these LRMR aircraft will be delivered within four years of the contract being actually signed, with the rest being handed over by 2015, said sources.

The LRMR planes will replace the eight ageing and fuel-guzzling Russian-origin Tupolev-142Ms. Customised for India and based on the Boeing 737 commercial airliner, the radar-packed P-8I aircraft will go a long way in plugging the huge gaps in Navy’s maritime snooping capabilities with a range of over 600 nautical miles.

Incidentally, Navy is also in the hunt for six new medium-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft for around Rs 1,600 crore to achieve its aim of an effective three-tier surveillance grid in the entire Indian Ocean.

Both Navy and Coast Guard have come in for some criticism for not being able to pre-empt the 26/11 terror attacks in Mumbai, even though the two forces maintain that they did not get “actionable intelligence” in time.

The P-8I aircraft will also be armed with Harpoon missiles, torpedoes and depth bombs to give them potent anti-submarine and anti-surface warfare capability. Moreover, they “will enhance interoperability” between the Indian and American navies, in keeping with the growing strategic embrace between the two countries.

The LRMR deal will supplant last year’s $962-million contract signed with US for six C-130J `Super Hercules’ aircraft for use by Indian special forces.

US is still, however, leagues behind Russia, Israel and France in supplying military hardware and software to India. While Russia notches up sales worth about $1.5 billion to India every year, Israel chalks up an annual tally of around $1 billion.

Apart from the C-130J deal, America’s only big-ticket deal with India in recent years has been the $190-million contract in 2002 to supply 12 AN/TPQ-37 firefinder weapon-locating radars.

Then, of course, India last year acquired amphibious transport vessel USS Trenton for $48.23 million, with the six UH-3H helicopters to operate from it costing another $39 million.

During its quest for LRMR planes, India had earlier rejected the US offer to lease two P-3C Orion reconnaissance aircraft under a $133-million contract. India, of course, remains unhappy over the American decision to sell eight more P-3C Orion aircraft to Pakistan, which already has two such planes in its inventory.

I’d like to see a source for all the Serviceability percentage figures. An MKI with a serviceability of 70% ? Source ?. A JF-17 with a 95% serviceability rate ? (source? It just got handed over to Pakistan recently !).
All the Second hand (or is it third ?) ‘hand me down’ Pakistani Mirages have a availability rate of ~ 70 % ?
And why is not an Indian Mig-29 not going to have an advantage over a ‘Plain as they come Jane’ Pakistani F-16 (With no BVR, or any HMD for WVR).
In fact, even the Bisons could take on a Pakistani F-16 and expect to come on top. If there is war, will the PAF be still around on the fourth day ?

All the Pakistani aircraft’s in general have a higher availability rate than the Indian aircraft ? (That’s not unusual at all is it ? 😀 )

not just that, the combat effectiveness factors are also skewed..as per that spread sheet, MiG-29s with BVR and HMS/R-73 in WVR are supposedly just a wee bit more effective than F-7PGs..:rolleyes:

To stay serious under typical Indian conditions you are not even in need of a radar in daylight conditions. The main task is done by the CGI and most of the missions will be in a limited area. Keeping constant CAP is a misuse of every air-power, because it does eat up resources with little gains from that.
In the case of a local war the battle-field and comitted forces are known.
Every party is aware, that the other side will change the fire-power in their favour to tip the balance accordingly. The ones doing the interdiction work to cut of the logistics and the other ones doing the CAS will all stay low for survival. All that has nothing to do with interceptor work for home defence duties. The one with the best intel-gathering and netwoking will have the advantage. In war-time all at hand will be used and none will wait for final clearance. See the Falklands 1982 about that, when the British did add new capabilities in short notice, which may have taken years in peace-time. 😉

GCI will be useful for F-7 and MiG-21 Bis type fighters, that lack radar range, which limits these fighters to defensive CAPs.

but the F-16 Blk 50s, MiG-21 Bisons, Mirage-2000s, MiG-29s and MKI don’t require GCI to be effective. they’re all BVR capable and IAF fighters will be escorting fighters deep into Pak airspace and if the PAF does expect to hit deep within India, it’ll need to do the same. GCI won’t work there. both sides lack the AWACS advantage as of now as well.

regarding the Falklands war, the SHAR was rushed into service, I agree, but the Harrier GR.1, on which it was based had been in service several years before the SHar was even developed based on the GR.3. So, the doctrines, training and such was already in place before the SHar was used in the Falklands.

I think the GOI might like to make it clear to France that the prospects of actually ordering Rafale – should it be selected in the MMRCA – will be considerably damaged if… if… SNECMA is now backtracking on an earlier agreement to JV the Kaveri up to the level where the LCA would meet air staff requirements.

I suggest that India should

a) restrict foreign engines to the first batch of Tejas
b) subject to the current Kaveri being integrated onto the Tejas successfully, order a batch of “low performance” Tejas MkI
c) trace and hire whatever foreign engineers have the expertise to develop core technology to the point required by the Kaveri for the Tejas to meet ASR
d) order a batch of “high performance” Tejas MkII with the higher thrust engine

With a potential for 100+ higher thrust engines being required for the MkII, spending 1,000 crore more rupees to gain the indigenous technology to make them would be a cost effective investment. The cost of powering the MCA – if pursued – would also be very much reduced.

I’m afraid it makes too much sense for the GoI or whichever committee it sets up to come up with this solution.

The problem with the Snecma offer was also that it supposedly failed to meet the Operational Requirements. the IAF has its heart set on a 95-100 kN engine and it looks like the only option now is to import EJ-200s or F-414s..

incredibly, India would’ve been building AL-31Fs and RD-33s under licence as well..Kaveri is too crucial for India- we can’t keep licence producing foreign engines forever at exhorbitant prices. The very fact that India is licence producing these engines and yet unable to overcome the Kaveri’s or Kabini’s problems shows how limited the knowledge gain from ToT can be..it is the basic and advanced R&D which is most crucial and they’re rightly not willing to let it all be frittered away.

I just hope that the IAF just asks for the F-414 or EJ-200 and they continue to develop the Kaveri, even if it doesn’t get ready within 3-4 years. The Tejas LCA cannot be held hostage to an indigenous engine program- they can be linked together whenever the engine matures, but the LCA has to be inducted.

maybe a good opportunity for the Typhoon consortium to link the EJ-200 with the LCA and that way improve the chances of the Typhoon.