21AnkushPossibly a neutral view…..
Combat is never predictable. No matter how much prep you do, things will always surprise you. Now the Su-30mki, going on what the chap in the video said, were taken out by F-15’s. The fact is even if the Su-30mki is better..etc…(In my opinion still to be proven) it did not show it in 1V1 WVR. Results are what matter, and the -15’s got them.
neutral view indeed
just as Bisons are far superior to F-16s and F-15s since they got them too, and that too in BVR, where the USAF prides itself. case closed. we now accept that F-22> Bison>> F-16/F-15.
:rolleyes:
21AnkushHow do they keep that in mind:diablo:
On a serious not, I think you have no idea what you are talking.
Please, drop the pretense of know-all smarty.
they keep that in mind by designing the cradle into which the engine sits, including wiring, harnesses and structure, to accomodate the Kaveri..the engine dimensions of the Kaveri and the F-404 are somewhat similar, but not ditto, so if a Tejas has to accomodate the Kaveri, it will need refitting and some redesign.
21AnkushNOBODY (except GeorgeJ) EVERY SAID THAT ANY FIGHTER WOULD EVERY GO INTO A WVR FIGHT WITH NOTHING BUT GUNS & AN ACMI POD!!! That is just more of his BS. The point was that the Su-30MKI at Red Flag were essentially CLEAN while the F-15 flew in “combat mode (4 missiles & 2 empty drop tanks). So the Su-30MKI were flying in a SIGNIFICANLTY advantageous condition & they still got beat.
the point being made is that bagging a MKI when it is’nt operating ANYWHERE NEAR its full capability isn’t that great a deal- its not realistic !
We’ve heard all kinds of spin on why the SH pilot got the F-22 in his gun-sight, and that time it was automatically assumed that the SH pilot simply made use of an opportunity..:rolleyes:
how about restricting an F-22 to operate with its radar off or in training mode and then in guns-only mode? then, even a regular F-15 with its supposed 16 deg sustained turn rate would be a threat, leave alone a MKI with sustained turn rates higher than 23 deg/s or a Typhoon or a Rafale or even a Gripen.
So, we should start going to town proclaiming that TVC isn’t that great a deal, since HE CLEARLY MENTIONED THAT inexperienced F-22 pilots also got shot down by legacy F-15s ?:rolleyes:
He didn’t say that the ONLY way an MKI can lose to the Eagle or Viper in a WVR situation is that if the MKI pilot makes a rookie mistake. Nice try though…It REALLY is pathetice how so many people misrepresent what was actually said.
He DID say that about the F-22 though.
he DID say that with experience, MKI pilots will beat legacy F-15s and F-16s regularly. that clearly explains what he means and what he thinks of the MKI.
21AnkushThe range estimates for the RVV-AE are impressive, but useful only against conventional targets. The -120C7/D is supposed to be in the same class if not longer ranged(again useful against conventional RCS targets).
The guy in the video clearly said that jamming employed by the IAF Bisons were so effective that the F-15Cs didn’t spot them till they had fired their RVV-AEs..bloody effective Elta 8222s. they would be jamming the missiles fired at them as well.
just as a question, what SPJ pod does the F-15 carry into combat? or does it depend on other Electronic Attack jets to do the jamming for it?
21Ankushno, I’ve heard the opposite about the Rafale to be honest. It’s not the same aircraft as the M2K 😉
but they had lower servicibility at Red Flag because they didn’t bring as many spares..a French poster named Jean on BR clarified on that..it had nothing to do with the lower maintainability of the Rafale as such, rather to do with them not having brought enough spares.
21AnkushWell I came back for one last post and it was to say this. Star49, you add nothing to any debate you are involved in, you talk utter rubbish when it comes to any subject and I think 99% of the posters on this forum would be much happier if you left, in short you suck, and you suck badly. Its such a shame this forums moderators, if one could call them that havn’t stamped out blatent trolls like yourself as you have lowered the tone of this forum down to that of a 4chan board.
for someone who has joined this forum less than a week ago, you sure do seem to know a lot about Star49 and the mods here..i smell a banned troll in a new avatar..:rolleyes:
21AnkushOK lets get some things straight here…
The comment made about Janes was that NO CLASSIFIED INFORMATION WOULD BE DISCLOSED & that all technical information given could be found in Janes.
The speaker IS saying that the Su-30MKI is better than the F-15 & F-16 currently in service with the USAF & that when flown by an experienced pilot will beat them on a regular basis. BUT it is no F-22…
There is abslutely nothing concerning the “cobra” maneuver in this presentation. What WAS talked about was “post stall maneuvers using vectored thrust”. BUT this is a BAD thing. Both the F-22 & Su-30MKI can out turn a F-15 or F-16, but if an inexperienced pilot gets over anxious & instead of taking his or her time to exploit this advantage & uses vectored thrust to get an even better turn/point that the aircraft becomes a flying speed break & goes into “post stall maneuvering”, losing TOO MUCH energy & for a time becomes a sitting duck.
It was the INDIANS which were concerned about FOD so there has to be SOMETHING to it. Although it COULD to a certain extent be that they did not bring many spare engines.
One last point, just because you can out turn an apponent DOES NOT guarantee that you will win the fight. Just ask the Japanese Zero pilots…
all this assumes that we even get to the merge. the guy himself conceded that the Bars radar is superior to legacy F-15/F-16 radars and with the RVV-AE, the chances are higher that he’ll get the first shot off while jamming with the Elta 8222..
assuming that misses, and that both the pilots miss with their IR missiles, it still requires a newbie MKI pilot to allow the F-15 pilot to get into an advantageous position. an experienced MKI pilot will use the TVC to his advantage and in most fights, end the legacy fighter’s fight.
all the handicaps that the IAF had imposed on itself during Red Flag aside, in a real world condition, the MKI will be detecting and ID’ing contacts a long way out. there won’t be any “is the contact hostile or friendly” chatter when the Bars is operating at full tilt and no fratricides either..and IAF Phalcons are not that far away frm being operational, so that takes away the added edge that Western fighters always enjoyed.
21AnkushIf IAF is so concerned with secrecy surrounding Bars radar and other equipment in SU-30MKI, would it be better for them to keep the original batch of SU-30Ks for use in international exercises? After all having an old but functional N-001 is better than flying “blind” with latest radar. SU-30K is also probably a better “energy” dogfighter than MKI due to its lighter weight.
they could have possibly kept those 18 Su-30Ks and Su-30MKs but they’ve actually sealed a deal with the Russians to trade them in for an equal number of brand new Su-30MKIs with the difference being paid by the IAF. those vanilla Su-30s really were flogged, with approx. 40% of their fatigue life being used up in just under a decade of service. besides, keeping an entire squadron worth of fighters just for training exercises would’nt be a smart thing for the IAF since they themselves know what the Bars is capable of, and don’t need an international exercise to confirm that..they can conduct internal DACT with Mirages, Fulcrums and Bisons, all capable of carrying some or the other form of SPJ. even latest DARIN II upgraded IAF Jags have internal SPJs.
21AnkushIt’s pretty obvious what he says…..that the SU-30MKI is a better aircraft than the F-15 and F-16.
In the second part he clearly says that “when their pilots learn how to fly the aircraft, they’ll be able to beat the F-15/16 on a regular basis“
and the fact is that the IAF deliberately sent a larger percentage of very young pilots (one of them I saw in a pic from Red Flag, I could recognise from a video on the Su-30MKI a year ago on an Indian news channel, where he was just beginning to fly the MKI, after completing his training in England on Hawks)..
the aim was to get the youngest blood in the IAF exposed to this great learning opp, so that the lessons learnt from here will be assimilated and stay in the force longer..Vishnu Som, an Indian journalist who was at Red Flag had pretty much stated that and his report can be found on BR.
There are some very senior pilots flying the MKIs as well, so its not like the IAF doesn’t know how to operate the MKIs..
during a turning fight, maybe a few younger pilots got too excited and pulled too hard..they’ll learn their lessons and won’t repeat it so that the chance for a F-16 or F-15 to be able to get behind them and get them in a turning dogfight will be slim to non-existent.
what excites me most is not the MKI, but the Bison..a maneuverable little fighter with a BVR weapon and SPJ it is pretty highly rated by the guy there..so makes me wonder what a Tejas, almost smaller in size, and having a smaller RCS thanks to the larger percentage of composites, and a internal SPJ would be able to do when it enters service.:D
21Ankushthe guy made a few mistakes in his presentation..some of these things even fanboys would know better..
first of all, the Su-30MKI does not use Tumansky engines, but Saturn AL-31Fs..then, the Bison does not use an Israeli F-16 radar (as he claims) but instead uses the Kopyo..
and he never mentions all the handicaps that the IAF had imposed on itself in these exercises such as using Bars radar training mode only, not its full functional modes, so as to prevent operational frequencies and performance figures from being given out. Also, the IAF did not simulate the RVV-AE, instead simulating the R-73, which obviously meant that in a BVR environment they were handicapped severely. then again, they did not share the same datalink that would allow them to have hte battlefield picture like the F-16, F-15, F-15Ks and Rafales did..so, they kept having to ask AWACS to IFF a contact during which they lost precious time and got splashed.
21AnkushI agree, not to mention that the flankers were all clean, and the F-15s had external wing tanks etc….
so what? the Flankers fly with no external fuel tanks anyway in general configuration..they only will carry external missiles, which would add drag, not as much though as fuel tanks would.
21Ankushmore beautiful pics
pics of the Weapons System Integrated (WSI) Dhruv..pics courtesy of Shiv Aroor.
21Ankushsome beautiful Tejas pics, courtesy of Shiv Aroor who got it from the MoD which releases it to the press.
21AnkushAny idea what variant of the F-7 crashed? the older G or the newer PG?
PAF F-7 jet crashes, pilot safe
PAF jet crashes, pilot safe
ISLAMABAD: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fighter aircraft crashed during a training mission near Mushaf Air Base in Sargodha. The pilot ejected safely. The PAF reported that the F-7 fighter aircraft was on a routine operational night training mission, when it went down five miles southwest of the PAF base. No loss of life or property was reported on the ground. A board of inquiry has been ordered by the Air Headquarters to determine the cause of the crash.
21Ankush21Ankush, so first 8 or so LCA/protypes are powered by F-404, and the next 20 or so will be powered by the more advanced version,i.e. IN20. Then comes in a more powerful EU/US engine to power another batch of LCA, and by the end of this JV engine should be ready to power the last batch. Bearing in mind that engine replacements are constly and do not get changed within a few years time (take a look at IAF’s present fleet), what sort of timeframe do you think IAF has in mind to switch to one single for the entire LCA engine.
Vikas, the first few prototypes with the F-404-F2J3 and the next 20 will basically be used by the IAF to achieve FOC which will include weapons testing. They would also train a whole bunch of instructors, ground personnel and use these to set up the manuals and syallabi for training future pilots. If the Su-30K fleet is anything to go by, they’ll use up the hours on these first 25 odd Tejas’ a lot faster than the regular fleet that will succeed them.
The IAF has refused to place further orders for Tejas’ with the F-404-IN-20 engine, so basically its not going to create much headache relating to having to maintain a different engine. The Kaveri-Eco will, if it succeeds, be used on future aviation programs as well, so there will be no problems maintaining them. There is no guarantee that the IAF will want the Kaveri-Eco on the Tejas if its thrust is found to be below the EJ-200 or F-414, so only the future will tell what the Tejas fleet ends up being engined with.
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