why aren’t those guys wearing their TopOwl-Fs? it was integrated ages ago.

just a small correction Otaku. its the Thales TopSight, not TopOwl, which is for gunships.

2004!? 6 years ago!?

Come Ankush. Even you can do better then this.

I can go back and find reports about US selling no weapons at all to India if I go back far enough.

I was merely pointing out how you and the other guy made inaccurate claims about the Gripen just to suit you, by saying that it wasn’t multi-role enough. how does it matter whether it was in 2004 or not. the PAF evaluated the Gripen, wanted it, the Pakistani Govt. approached Sweden and was turned down. you said that if they sold AEW&C, they’ll sell fighters as well, which is not true. I merely pointed out the fallacy of your claims.

PAF did not choose Gripen due to 1) Cost 2) not wanting an entire western fighter fleet. Trust me, if a nation sells us AWACs, it will not hesitate to sellus a lightweight fighter.

Secondly, Pakistan did not go for Gripen as they are not Multi-role (the current one that is) and neither as capable as F-16s and come with US/Western sanctions threat. The only time Gripen was considered was in 90s, with ToT and as an alternative to the JF-17 but not for the medium weight fighter requirement.

both your arguments about why the PAF didn’t buy Gripens are inaccurate. PAF evaluated the Gripen and there were news reports in 2004 about how the PAF wanted to buy as many as 60 Gripens, with Saab also wanting the deal to go through. the Swedish govt. did not agree to the sale as Sweden did not want to sell “weapons” to Pakistan. apparently the Erieye is not considered as a “weapon”.

Sweden Not to Sell Gripen Fighter Planes to Pakistan

(Source: Press Trust of India; issued July 7, 2004)

ISLAMABAD — In a setback to Pakistan’s efforts to get new generation Swedish-made Gripen fighter planes, Stockholm has said that it will not sell any weapons or weapon-related equipment to Islamabad.

“There is no question of selling them weapons or anything directly related to weapons,” Swedish Foreign Minister Laila Freivalds said after her talks with visiting Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf in Stockholm yesterday.

Before his talks with Freivalds, Musharraf, who is currently on a tour of Scandinavian countries, said that Pakistan might be interested in purchasing JAS Gripen fighter planes from Sweden. “Pakistan is looking for a high-tech aircraft. Gripen is one of several alternatives,” he was quoted as saying by Swedish newswire TT.

Freivalds, however, said Sweden would not be considering the sale of any weapons or weapon-related equipment to Pakistan, media reports here said. She also said the Swedish government has yet to decide whether to sell Erieye radars, which was sought to be purchased by Pakistan for its Air Force. She said a decision has to be made whether the radar came under the category of weapon. “We have yet to reach that stage,” she said.

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has been looking for alternatives to acquire new generation aircraft to modernize its ageing fleet after US declined to sell old as well as new F-16 fighter planes. Musharraf concluded his Sweden visit yesterday and went to Finland on a two-day trip.

again in 2006 as well, the PAF was interested in the Gripen if the F-16 Block 50 sale did not come through. to say that Pakistan did not go for Gripens because they were not “multi-role” is nonsense and frankly sounds like sour grapes, because Gripen C/Ds are multi-role in every sense. if PAF bought them you’d be singing its praises. and if the Gripen can be sanctioned, so can the F-16 and the PAF has faced it before with its F-16A/Bs already.

5 July 2004, Monday

PAF trying to induct 60 Gripen jets into fleet

LAHORE: Through a deal thought to cost around Rs 156.6 billion, the Pakistan Airforce (PAF) is trying to induct 60 state-of-the-art jetfighters, Gripen (JAS-39), with the manufacturers, Gripen International – the conglomeration of Saab AB and BAE Systems.
[b]
These air-superiority combat aircrafts, come at a price-tag of $45 million (Rs 2.61 billion), and are considered the best overall bet in that category. The final delivery of planes to PAF, is expected within three years. The PAF and Saab Scania have already negotiated the deal. However, a final agreement between the Pakistan government and Gripen International is expected to be signed in a month or so, as the Saab AB awaits a green signal from the Swedish Government. President Pervez Musharraf’s visit to Sweden has assumed even greater significance against this backdrop. It is believed that the fate of the agreement will be decided if President Musharraf succeeds in convincing the Swedish and British governments to give a go-ahead nod to Gripen International. Pakistan also intends to purchase Airborne Early Warning planes, Argus, from Saab Scania as well.

The deal, should it materialise, will give the PAF an instant cushion of one squadron of Gripen within six months, and additional aircrafts at regular intervals. These aircrafts will on lease to Pakistan as a part of the aggressive marketing and innovative financing campaign of the Gripen International, until the deal’s completion. The squadrons will include twin-seat trainer aircrafts as well. The entire package will include the transfer of technology, besides sharing of latest research and consequential upgrades.

It is learnt the Gripen International has assured the PAF the delivery of aircrafts, the transfer of technology and upgrade programmes would not be hindered by any kind of sanctions except for the UN. The deal can, however, be dampened in case the US tries to influence both the governments not to allow the Gripen International to sell the fighters to Pakistan.

The Gripen is a frontline multirole, swingrole aircraft, and is considered a match for any sophisticated fourth-generation combat aircraft. Having a Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC) system powered by Volvo RM12 engine, Gripen can attain a maximum speed of Mach 2. The aircraft has a digital fly-by-wire flight control system, which further enhances its manoeuvrability – an optimum agility at all speeds and altitudes. It has an established performance of flying supersonic at all altitude. Gripen can get airborne within a short span of one minute (scramble to take-off time). It can reach 50,000 feet (Maximum service ceiling) from standstill in just three minutes. The Hand on Throttle and Stick (HOTAS) control further ensures the best performance of the aircraft at stress times.

With a sophisticated computerised modern functional and weapon control system, Gripen is equipped with air-to-air, air-to-ground and air-to-sea operational capability. The platform is also capable of carrying out reconnaissance missions during peace and wartimes. The latest, hitech avionics enables the Gripen pilot to have a `look down-shoot down’ prowess. It is fitted with an Ericsson Radar, which can detect and lock-on multiple long-range targets. The aircraft can cage and shoot multiple targets at beyond visual range (BVR). The fighter can take on the hostile platform over 130 kilometres away.

In addition to this, the integrated datalink capability eases the burden on the pilot as information on all land, air and sea targets is available to all airborne, ground and sea platforms. That is, if a Gripen is flying over Kahuta and another is patrolling the shores of the country, both the platforms will share the data on targets through coloured multifunction displays (MFDs) in the cockpit.

This data will be shared by all ground and sea surveillance points as well. This is a state-of-the-art system, and matches the US equivalent JTIDS (Joint Tactical Information Display System). This system is generally called the Quick Reaction Alerts (QRA), and gives the fighter an edge in Combat Air Strike (CAS) and Combat Air Patrol (CAP) operations, besides reconnaissance.

Through this system, any aggressor in the air, land or sea can be engaged from the nearest facility on the ground, sea or in the air. This capability gets a prime support from Swedish Airborne Early Warning (AEW) platforms, S-100B Argus (SAAB 340B AEW). Pakistan is also looking for the purchase of some of these aircrafts for fully utilising the defence capability of Gripen. With this edge, Gripen’s low visual radar and infra-red signature makes it a safe platform in the air, having an edge over the enemy.

PAF re-considering SAAB JAS-39 Gripen
According to my sources, PAF is re-considering the Swedish Saab JAS-39 Gripen option. PAF is waiting for confirmation whether the US will or will not sell F-16s to Pakistan. If the answer is a final “NO”, then it will opt either for the Mirage 2000-5 or the JAS-39 Gripen. US has now told Pakistan that it will now have no objection to the sale of the Gripen to Pakistan. However, PAF is asking Sweden to furnish some guarantees with regards to availablity of spares to PAF if it opts for the Gripen. The Gripen carries a US GE engine and US avionics.

In a meeting with CENTCOM Chief Tommy Franks, PAF Air Chief Mushaf Mir asked Franks to confirm whether the US will or will not sell the F-16 to Pakistan so it can make a final decision.

pakdef forum link

Where is there any equievelent of JDAM?

whats so special about the JDAM that you keep harping about it ? from wikipedia, this is what the JDAM does

The Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) is a guidance kit that converts existing unguided gravity bombs, or “dumb bombs”, into all-weather “smart” munitions. JDAM equipped bombs are guided to their target by an integrated inertial guidance system coupled with a Global Positioning System (GPS) receiver for enhanced accuracy, giving them a published range of up to 15 nautical miles (28 km) from the release point.

so its a guidance kit that converts existing dumb bombs into PGM with an INS/GPS system.

IAF has been using Griffin kits for converting dumb bombs into LGBs

Griffin laser-guided bomb (LGB) system (Israel), Bombs – Precision and guided munitions

Type
Laser-guided bomb.

Development
In 1990 MBT Systems, part of Israel Aircraft Industries Ltd, completed development of a laser-guided bomb (LGB) system called Griffin. The Griffin guidance kits were designed for easy attachment to standard low-drag bombs such as the US Mk 82 (500 lb), Mk 83 (1000 lb) and Mk 84 (2,000 lb) bombs already in service with the Israeli Air Force. The types of target in mind for Griffin were command posts, bunkers, hardened shelters, bridges, SAM sites and ships. Target illumination for the system was designed to be either by an aircraft-mounted laser designator, or by a ground laser designator. In 1995 it was reported that a Griffin LGB kit was being developed for use on the Mk 81 125 kg bomb.The Griffin LGB system is cleared for carriage on the IDF/AF’s F-4E Phantom, A-4 Skyhawk, F-15 Eagle, F-16 Fighting Falcon and Kfir aircraft, and a range of other aircraft for its export customers. In February 2003 Griffin LGBs were exhibited by the Indian Air Force (IAF) in what must be a modification unique to that country. India has integrated UK-pattern 1,000 lb GP bombs, from the Indian production line, with the Griffin guidance kit. It is believed that these bombs are used to equip India’s Jaguars and are probably available to other IAF aircraft. Griffin weapons have also been observed on South African Air Force Cheetah D strike aircraft.

in addition to this, the Mirage-2000H/TH carry the Crystal Maze missile which is a derivative of the Popeye stand-off air-launched missile.

Shows your intelligence to post a Dawn article about transparancy. Clutching at straws I see.

Its a Pakistani newspaper isn’t it ? whats wrong if I posted an article, an editorial actually, that says that the Erieye is a medium-tech AEW&C ?? its not like I wrote that article..touched a raw nerve it looks like..:rolleyes:

21Ankush, you’ve been a very naughty boy. The Pakitan Air Force’s ‘game-changers’ for Waziristan should not be any concern of yours!

Now occupy yourself with tons of MiG-29K/KUB pics:

http://pilot.strizhi.info/photos/v/in-flight_refueling/?g2_page=1

thanks Otaku. loved these pictures ! just wish they were in higher resolution..:)

BTW, was the blue one (the MiG company prototype), one of those that landed on the Admiral Kuz? its radome was similarly striped..

oh and another point- I noticed that the MiG-29KUB rear seater’s view over the front seater is not as great as in the Su-30MKI. apparently, when designing the Tejas twin-seater, the IAF wanted good visibility from the rear seat, as per one person whose material I was reading. Cannot produce the data because its confidential to my company. it was designed to be 10 deg slope from the rear seater’s eyeline to the front seater’s eyeline. can be seen in the pic below.

I do understand that — my point is that the aim was to get the fighter inducted, operational, and working and worry about making it in house after – and that is what is happening – as opposed to trying to re-invent the wheel.

which makes sense for what the PAF wanted- a cheap, BVR capable, 3rd generation operational fighter. national technological growth is not their look-out. almost every air arm will have similar outlook if they have a supplier that they have full faith in and no worry about sanctions or problems with spares supplies. China in this case fits the bill for Pakistan.

and if the aim for Pakistan as a nation was not to develop competency in aerospace in general and fighter design and development in particular, then it makes no difference whether the fighter was only assembled in Pakistan or not or if the JF-17 had any Pakistani designed and developed components in it or not.