21Ankush400km/h IAS is the minimum operating speed of the MiG-23/27 at 16° wing sweep angle necessary for maneuvering (450km/h at 45° and 500km/h at 72°).
This speed is 400-450km/h IAS for the MiG-21. Just for comparison.What I do not understand is how the AL-31F could help to lower it down to 200km/h? 😮
thanks for this. seems to be just another brochure spec that was being provided where they said that the AL-31F could help increase the flight envelope to below 400 km/h speeds. if the limitation on speed was due to the airframe’s lift itself, then no way that an engine upgrade could help improve on that figure.
21Ankushhere’s an article describing the entire episode where Flt. Lt. Nachiketa himself describes how the MiG-27 crashed. turns out, he was way above the speed limits that we’re talking of here and was above 500 km/h at the time of engine flameout (which was attributed later to ingestion of gases from the cannon).
21AnkushThe speed is not related to the installed thrust! At supersonic-speed it does come from the inlet-outlet-system at first. An unregulated system will limit speed at height below Mach 2 at all.
who is saying that speed is related to installed thrust ? speed is related to the performance of the engine compressor-the R29 engine has more limitations in this regard, which cause flameouts when the MiG-27 is stretched or if the speed is lower than design specs (which are way too limiting). in fact, the MiG-23/27 are the most attrition-prone aircraft in the IAF, far more so than the MiG-21, when compared in percentage terms of how many aircraft the IAF has and how many have crashed.
As a low level striker the MiG-27 with external load is limited to 600 kt or < Mach 0,95. Max dry is ~8 tons for both engines. The MiG-27 was never designed to fly slow and fight. To avoid man-pads it has to stay above Mach 0,8 and be full swept-back by that.
The pilot was an idiot, when operating the MiG-27 outside its designed envelope for dubious results from that.
the airflow speed is related to the engine- if the R29 engine was not designed to operate at lower than 400 km/h at certain altitudes, then that is a big design deficiency. in most cases, the pilot would be strained trying to attack a target in a mountainous terrain while maintaining high speed. the fact is that the Al-31F and the RD-33 engines were far superior to the R-29 engine because they allowed for a much larger flight envelope.
basically, the Al-31F allows the MiG-27 to be used far more effectively because it will prevent flameouts at speeds that are nominal for any ground attack aircraft..
also, a pilot in a real war scenario, attacking targets between mountains, where maneuvering a MiG-27 is a very tricky thing, could easily fly below such high speed design limitations. the Al-31F can take the same airframe and get rid of these limitations- limitations that are very well known for the MiG-27. a recent CAG report had criticised how HAL’s upgrade did not take care of the design limitations of the MiG-27.
21AnkushI thought someone say air show smoke will only from wingtip and when proven, it can came from nozzle engine. He switches his tone. How can we trust such indecisive person words? I sense great sour grapes! :rolleyes:
you’re blind enough to see that smoke from the engine exhaust as being air-show related thanks to your nationality..:D everyone knows that the RD-33 is a smokey engine..the RD-33MK Sea Wasp on the MiG-29K is the only RD-33 engine that has work done specially on the combustor. Here’s an excerpt from an article by Piotr Butowski
“The MiG-29K is powered by a Klimov RD-33 Series 3M turbofan. This version which is to have a useful life of 2000 hours, is fully protected against corrosion and has a smoke-free combustion chamber”
The only major difference between the RD-33 and the RD-93 is given on JF17.com- “The most significant difference being the repositioning of the gearbox along the bottom of the engine casing.” Nothing to do with a new combustor, hence it will be just as smoky as baseline RD-33s.
21AnkushThat has nothing to do with the engine at first, but with the lift available.
“Higher thrust to weight ratio (AL-31F series 30 delivers 12,500kgf at full afterburner compared to 11,500 for the R29B-300) extends MiG-27ML flight envelope. Lowering the minimum operating speed from 400 to 200km/h in altitudes 0…8,000m and increasing maximum operating speed from 1,350 to 1,480km/h at the same altitudes. Furthermore, the MiG-27ML/AL-31F can fly higher, up to 20,000m and accelerate to Mach 2.0 at high altitudes. This makes the aircraft a lot more flexible tool for air strike and air defence.”
could have something to do with compressor stall at lower speeds for the R-29 engine at certain altitudes. if the engine was not designed to operate at lower than 400 km/h at certain altitudes, then a compressor stall is a very real possibility. an IAF MiG-27 did crash during the Kargil war when the engine ingested gases from the onboard gunfire, resulting in disrupted airflow to the engine when the MiG-27 was already operating at low speeds.
I erroneously wrote it as knots, instead of km/h. why on earth would the MiG-27 be able to generate more lift with an engine change?
21Ankushyou want to compare that Thunderbird F-16s smoke contrails to the smoky engine exhaust of the FC-1 ?:D I thought that it would be ridiculous if a Pakistani tried to pass off that exhaust as a deliberate show trick, but it turns out thats exactly what a dud like you would try to do !! 😀
As for Pakistani help on the FC-1, I’m guessing you’re referring to the paint..best quality paint in the world !:D
21AnkushDon’t forget India also has Mig-29 using RD-33 engines, are u bashing yr own beloved country choice of fighter? 😀 Stop making senseless issue of FC-1 engine being smoky. Can’t u see it an air show and smoke is neccessary to display the flight path. Smoky issue was solved long ago….
stop bull****ting..everyone knows that the MiG-29s engines are smoky..I just pointed out how smoky those FC-1s are as well..
as for airshows, the smoke is from canisters on the wingtips, not the engine nozzle..:D just accept the fact that the RD-33 series or its derivatives have smoky combustors..the newer RD-33MK3s on the MiG-29K are the only ones where a very conscious effort was made to take care of the combustor.
21Ankushthose smoky RD-33s make it look like they were done specially for the show..:D
21AnkushAccording the site above: The thrust is increased by 1 Ton, the weight decreased by 200 kg and the fuel consumption improved by 15 % depending on flight regime.
add to that the improvement in slow speed flight envelope..the MiG-27 with AL-31F-30 will be able to fly at 200 knots without stalling as compared to 400 knots. will definitely help pilots considering that this is a attack jet.
21AnkushIAF requirement was MIG-21 class fighter, that needed to be inducted in 1990s. If you are expecting that IAF mandate Mirage 2000 CLASS aircraft from ADA, then you are in delusion. IAF wanted something better than Mig-21 and expected nowhere near Mirage 2000, hence chosen Mirage III design and seeked Dassault as design consultant.
So the LCA is nothing but glorified Mirage III design which has been there and done its time.. in form of “Indeginous” Kafir, “Indeginous” Cheetah…et. el.
trolling trolling..Pakistani troll alert ! 😀
go shout from rooftops that its a glorified Mirage-3 and everyone will believe you..:diablo:
21AnkushWhich may explain why it looks Rafalesque (not a bad thing).
IAF’s Air Staff Requirements almost mandated a Mirage-2000esque fighter at almost half the price of a Mirage-2000..had LockMart been a design consultant to ADA as it was in the case of the T-50, we might have seen a F-16 type layout.
and now that the Tejas has test pilots saying that in some key performance parameters it is even better than the Mirage-2000, it seems that it may live up to the IAF’s initial requirement.
21AnkushOk, its all become so confusing.
If ‘The actual design and development work of LCA commenced in 1992’, (im particularly refering to design here) then why do we have an article in Flight in 1989 claiming that LCA’s ‘design has been frozen’???
Now from what I understand (and please correct me if Im worng) a lot of design work needs to be done before you can actually freeze a fighter design??? So either the design work started before 1989 for the design to be frozen in 1989 or the person making this claim was not telling the full truth???
Also if the construction of a 1/7 model model started in 1989, what was that model design based upon? Im sure ir wouldn’t have been the result of a simple meeting about what sort of model we should make, and then we’ll refine the design afterwards.
vikas, when a design is frozen, it basically means that the wind tunnel, CFD models and other tests have yielded a configuration and that the outer mould line of the aircraft is frozen..the design of the parts that make up the airframe, etc. will only start after that..in the case of the Tejas, this was approximately the time that Dassault was the design consultant. and when I say Design Consultant, I mean that Dassault helped ADA choose and finalize the configuration, not that they were helping doing detail design work.
21AnkushIt is good to know that the date is immeterial after trying your spin of 1993 LCA start date. But I do have to give you that you do reformed your opinion(although, not explicitly)………hope some of your collegues here see the light:cool: .
About delivering a relevant aircraft, Time Will only tell. But going by the IAF on and off complains am not sure about Times’s mercy on LCA.
Did you say followon projects also??? Hope you did not mean SARAS………do you??
goes to show how little you actually know about Indian aviation..the Saras is a complete NAL project and NAL was not the nodal agency for the Tejas- it was the ADA. The follow-on projects being referred to are the IJT Sitara, whose design was completed within 3 years time from inception, and the avionics for the MKI, which went on to become standard fitment on almost every IAF fighter inducted afterwards or upgraded afterwards. apart from that
but hey, Pakistan’s aviation industry PAC Kamra will be assembling the JF-17 and most importantly painting it themselves as their ACM proudly proclaimed..after that, as the Chinese transfer the complete assembly line jigs and equipment, it’ll be done within Pakistan itself..very great achievement indeed..:diablo:
21Ankushand now Russia spoils its reputation even further..
IJT delivery schedule goes awry
Ravi Sharma
HAL received order for 12 Limited Series Production aircraft
Flying tests of the aircraft yet to begin
BANGALORE: The delay in developing a new Russian engine (AL-551) that will power the indigenous intermediate jet trainer (IJT) has resulted in the aircraft’s delivery schedules going awry.
As per the original schedule, the first batch of IJTs was to have been delivered to the Air Force in 2005-06. But the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) designed and manufactured trainer aircraft will now not be able to meet even the revised 2007-08 schedule.
Coded the Hindustan Jet Trainer (HJT)-36, HAL received an order for 12 Limited Series Production (LSP) aircraft five years ago.
Sources in HAL told The Hindu that as part of the IJT programme, two AL-551 engines were to have been readied and tested. One was expected to arrive at HAL’s Aircraft Division here for ground integration on the IJT last November, eventually flying the trainer aircraft in July 2008. But it is yet to arrive.
The other engine was to be tested on a flying platform in Russia. Though the task of mounting the engine on the Russian trainer aircraft, MiG-AT, had begun, the flying tests were yet to begin, the sources said.
Crucial tests
The flying tests in Russia are crucial, as only after the new engine is cleared there, it could be used to power the IJTs in India.
The flight test programme in Russia will require the engine to fly the MiG-AT for around 30 hours. This should normally take around three months to complete. A HAL team is expected to visit Russia “once the testing of the new engine is in full swing.”
Meant to be the backbone of the Air Force’s stage II or combat pilot training programme, the IJT, called “Sitara,” was sanctioned by the government in 1999 with an initial budget of Rs. 180 crore.
Making its first flight in March 2003, it is meant to replace the Air Force’s workhorse, HJT-16 or Kiran. Around 225 HJT-36s are to be eventually produced, serving the IAF, the Navy as well as the Air Force’s Surya Kiran aerobatic team.
More powerful engine
Though the two IJT prototypes that have taken to the skies are powered by the French-made Snecma Larzac 04H20 engine, HAL, in conjunction with the Air Force’s air staff requirements, opted in 2005 for a new and more powerful engine (AL-551) that was promised by the Russian aircraft engine designer/manufacturer, NPO-Saturn.
The Russian engine is a scaled-down version of the AL-31FP engine that flies the Su-30 MKI combat aircraft. The AL-551 will power the 12 LSP aircraft and future production models of the IJT.
While the estimated cost of the engine’s development is Rs. 185 crore, over 200 engines are to be eventually produced by HAL at the Koraput (Orissa) plant. HAL now hopes to produce two LSP aircraft in 2008-09 and complete the remaining 10 by 2009-10.
21AnkushIndia and Russia sign MiG-29 upgradation deal
New Delhi, Mar 7(PTI) India and Russia today signed an estimated billion dollar deal for upgradation of Indian Air Force’s 92 Mig-29 fighter planes to extend their lifespan by 40 years.
Under the deal, signed between Defence Ministry and Russian RAC-Mig company, the fighters are to be armed with top-notch avionics suites to bring them at par with latest shipborne Mig-29K/KUB fighters being made for Indian Navy, official sources dhere said.
This will be the first of the two major deals the IAF is planning to revamp its fast dwindling fighter squadron. In another major deal awaiting a go-ahead by the Cabinet Committee on Security, the Air Force aims to upgrade its 52 Mirage 2000 fighters to bring them to advanced level of French Air Forces Mirages.
Under the Mig-29 upgradation programme, the fighters would be fitted with Advanced Zhuk-ME, Optronics station based on space technology and colour multifunctional displays in the cockpit.
The fighter planes would also be armed with longer range beyond visual range air-to-air missiles, high accuracy guided missiles to destroy ground targets and smart aerial bombs.
The first of the six MIG-29 fighters would be upgraded in Russia and delivered in three years by 2011 and the remaining 86 would be modernised at IAF aircraft repair facilities utilizing kits supplied by the RAC-MIG. PTI
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