21AnkushThe US sale of F-16 and AMRAAMs come with a very strict verification regime to make sure that the technology does not fall into Chinese hand. France will not be able to enforce anything similar. Additionally these Radars are going to be fitted on a Chinese designed aircraft. No way it can be done without Chinese involvement. So you cant compare American sales to French sales. Maybe enough to tip the scales in favor of the Typhoon for the MRCA.
hardly matters. PAF already transferred a F-16 to China, so a lot of its technology must already have made its way into Chinese projects through reverse engineering. having sold of F-16s with AMRAAMs, apart from a bunch of other equipment with military aid money, America does’nt really cover itself in glory when it comes to talking about arming Pakistan.
21Ankush
The first Tejas 2 seater being built at HAL
pic courtesy of Ajai Shukla
21AnkushTejas 2 seater
This was the view of the Tejas 2 seater that B. Harry had made quite sometime ago..
21Ankushand they’re boasting about its safety record (:diablo: ), which is ridiculous! the IAF’s own Air Marshal Ahluwahlia had made a presentation a couple of years ago on how the Mirage-2000 was a far safer jet than the F-16..the IAF won’t just swallow such drivel. this is a brochure and just that..to impress the politicians and civvies who may not know the facts. how about someone adding a page on the Pakistani F-16s (they’re the ones who spoilt the F-16s 72-0 record did’nt they?:dev2: ), and how they’ve had more than 2 decades of experience flying this jet’s older variants..
21AnkushF-16 gets super cruise capability
Fort Worth (Texas), PTI:
So far, the ‘super cruise’ capability is only seen in 5th generation fighters F-22 Raptors and its just unrolling F-35 joint strike fighters. This capability would impart the fighter with extended range, as it can zoom from take-off to breaking the sound barrier without the use of fuel guzzling after-burners.
As the deadline for India’s biggest ever defence deal for purchase of 126 new fighter planes nears, US aviation giant Lockheed Martin today unveiled a new upgraded version of its F-16 fighter planes with ‘super cruise’ capability and Active Electronic Scanned Array (AESA) radars.
So far, the ‘super cruise’ capability is only seen in 5th generation fighters F-22 Raptors and its just unrolling F-35 joint strike fighters.This capability would impart the fighter with extended range, as it can zoom from take-off to breaking the sound barrier without the use of fuel guzzling after-burners.
The export version of the fighters, for the first time, has also been equipped with AESA radars, as reportedly specified in the Indian Air Force’s USD 10-billion tender for the acquisition of 126 fighters.
Top company official Chuck Artymovich told a group of Indian newsmen that the AESA radar, which gives the capability to simultaneously track and destroy ground and air threats, has been cleared by the US government for installation in 80 F-16s ordered by the United Arab Emirates.
“We are confident that similar green signal would be given for installation of such radars in the case of export to India also,” he said.
Speaking while unveiling an India-specific Fighting Falcons (F-16 IN), the Lockheed Martin executive said that the proposed fighter planes would also be armed with infra-red search and track pods as well as, counter-electronic warfare pods.
“The F-16 IN is a complete new aircraft and totally caters to India’s requirements and there could be no comparison with Block 50 and 60 fighters, being made for other countries,” he said.
The US company officials said that there were fair chances of India increasing its fighter intake by 50 more planes. Artymovich’s comment assumes significance, as the international tenders for the deal are expected to be opened on March 2.
Besides the F-16, other major contenders for the contract include Boeing’s F-18, Eurofighter, Gripen of Sweden, Rafale of France and Russia’s MIG 35.
At the ceremony, Lockheed Martin executives said they had met all requirements proposed in the Indian Request For Proposals (RFP) without giving out any details of the contents, citing confidentiality.
They said that the company was prepared to meet the RFP requirements of offsets, and would do so in the field of aeronautics or for co-development of an Indian Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV).Fighting Falcons have proved to be the world’s largest selling fighters with sales touching a figure of 4,300. It also holds a record of 400,000 hours of combat flying and being the safest multi-role fighter in the US history.
Asked why the company did not offer its 5th generation fighter F-35, Lockheed officials said that the deal time-frame ruled out the possibility for the same.
On the occasion, Indian newsmen, were for the first time, shown the futuristic joint strike fighter.
21Ankushback when the F18 was first choosen for the RAAF(in 1985) it came down to 4 aircraft the F18,F16,F15 & the mirage 2000. i not sure why the mirage was dropped but i think the F15 was dropped because the RAAF thought that it would be out of production by the end of the decade.
The Northrop F-18L and Panavia Tornado were also offered in addition to the F-16, F-15, Mirage-2000 and the McD Douglas F-18A. The Mirage-2000 was dropped because it was considered too ‘raw’ in terms of radar and avionics capabilities compared to the F-16 and F-18 variants- they were supposedly better. the F-18L was dropped because there was no other customer for it and the RAAF did’nt want to become the launch customer for a totally untried type as the risk was deemed too great.
the F-15 was supposedly a fave among the evaluators and the RAAF’s chiefs, but it was dropped because they thought that its multi-role capabilities were too underdeveloped.
21AnkushDassault has also quit the Danish contest for the same reason
but then why is Dassault not even heard of in the Romanian and Bulgarian competitions? the Gripen and Typhoon are there, and if the Typhoon is there, then the Rafale should definitely be fielded.
21AnkushRight now one ton of JP is ~900$. How many fuel does a F-15 burn per flying hour? 3-4 tons per hour or 2700$ – 3600$, a F-16 will be 2-3 tons per hour or 1800$ – 2700$, a MiG-21BISON 2 tons per hour or 1800$.
That may differ by height and use of AB, but will never reach the lionsshare of >15000$ claimed!
There is no shortage about investment goods the USA or Europe can sell to India. Of cause none enterprise will miss busines or a new customer, but similar or more money can be earned by Boeing and Airbus much easier by fullfilling the rising demand of India for airliners f.e.. India has a rising output of people for computer-services and the markets in the USA and Europe to earn the money with.
So far the Russian arms did fullfill the Indian demands in most cases and nothing will change about that really, except there are no longer political prices for that.
boss, the figures for the flying costs per hour for the Tornado (23k pounds per hour) and Jaguar (13k pounds per hour) that I quoted are from AFM’s latest issue. they’re accurate. the MKI most likely will be somewhat closer to the Tornado than the Jaguar, and thats pretty expensive.
21AnkushSo, if that neigbour is operating 10 different types of tanks and so on, should India be doing the same?
dude, you asked who else was operating that many and would be operating that many in the future. I just pointed out that China has been or will. don’t need to get defensive if you can’t frame your questions right. :rolleyes:
21AnkushNick, I make that 5 different types. How many other airforces around the world are planning to operate so many types in future?
our neighbour to the east. it currently has A-5s, J-6s, J-7s, J-8s, Su-27s, Su-30MK2s, JH-7s, J-10s and is probably developing a J-XX for the 5th gen fighter requirement.
even with A-5s, J-6s, J-7s and J-8s gone, it’ll still have J-11s, Su-30MKKs and MK2s, JH-7s, J-10s, FC-1 (maybe?) and 5th gen J-XXs.
21Ankushakj, please note that earlier I had footnoted that I mean fighter types only, and not bombers like A-10, B-2 and B-52. However, I admit that earlier I was mistaken that the A-10 was long retired, but now it will be retired in 2028.
Currently, the Russian air force also operates medium and heavy fighters only i.e. MiG-29 and Su-27 and variants thereof. MiG-31 is a reconnaissance interceptor and again a medium weight type.
The same is the case of China’s PLAAF which seeks to operate only Su-30, J-10 and the JH-7.As we have discussed before, there is no ‘room’ for intermediate external payload between Su-30’s 5200 kg, and the Tejas’ 2500-3000 kgs. Combat radii for the two are also 1,500 and nearly 1000 kms respectively at these loads. Hence, a ‘medium’ fighter requirement or MRCA may not arise at all in the first place.
Actually, all this may be because of the “label” that Tejas has been given namely :- “light weight replacement of MiG-21”. Whereas, it can carry external loads equivalent to IAF’s serving MiG-29’s and at ranges of the MiG-27 bomber.
Thus, there is absolutely no tactical requirement of any ‘medium’ MRCA.
do you even know how much it’ll cost per hour of flying for a fighter the size of the MKI ? the Tornado was costing the RAF nearly 18,000 pounds per flying hour on fuel costs alone, let alone its heavy maintenance costs. compare that to a smaller Jaguar that was costing about 13,000 pounds per flying hour and its maintenance man-hours were less by a substantial number. within a year, the flying costs alone would allow you to recover a substantial portion of the difference that you had to invest in added infrastructure to support the Jags in place of the Tornado.
fact is, the IAF needs a lighter fighter, in large numbers to be able to maintain squadron strength. and while it looks like the MKI and Tejas’ alone could take on all possible roles that the IAF requires, it is a fact that there is substantial difference in the costs of operation for a MKI and MiG-29/Mirage-2000/Jaguar class aircraft.
the MRCA is essential for the IAF to be able to pull away from the Russian single-source type of situation as well, something that was always a part of the IAF’s doctrine. with the IAF having committed to the PAK-FA, if the MRCA is not there, we’ll end up being a completely Russian IAF, except for the Tejas, by 2025. hardly the kind of influence I’d like Russia to have over the IAF.
21AnkushBy all accounts the MKI is very cheap for what it is, of the MMRCA contenders none (with the possible but still unlikely exceptions of the Mig-35 and the Gripen) are likely to come in much under $100 million a piece. As for maintenance, I dont have figures but I do wonder whether the cost of yet another type, especially if twin engined, may be little cheaper than the MKI.
As for the LCA, well it might be time to show a bit of confidence it it.;)
the IAF’s new purchase of 40 MKIs is going to cost it nearly $ 65 million per MKI (posted by JC on BR). not quite the cheapest fighter. I know its a good price for a fighter with the capabilities of the MKI, but its not like the MKI is incredibly cheap. Gripens, MiG-35s or F-16s (maybe even F-18s) could easily be priced around that figure, considering the size of the order.
21AnkushThe fact that Gripen went to Austria too sure of himself doesn´t compromise that it was an open competition, the Eurofighter beat off four competing offers, Dassault, Lock Mart, Gripen and a second hand Viper deal proposed by Holland and Belgium.
And about bribes, double standards,etc, etc, etc, american firms bribed Japanese Ministers, Dutch Princes, Australian political members, etc, etc, the French bribed in almost every competition that they´ve entered, and the same aplies to the Russian´s…
It´s the arm´s industry, it´s not a boy scout´s contest.
the point that I was making is because someone said that the SHornet has’nt won a single open competition, whereas the Typhoon has’nt won a single open competition thanks to its technical merits either. the Austrian competition itself has come under the scanner, and in 2 other competitions in SKorea and Singapore, it was’nt the winner in technical terms either. it has’nt been able to convince Greece, Turkey, Norway or Denmark to purchase any, despite desperate sales efforts.
none of that means that the Typhoon is’nt an impressive fighter, as was being hinted about the SHornet because it has’nt won open competitions. the truth is that fighter procurement is about a host of factors, political being one of the most major.
21AnkushThe JSF deal is another sore point…. It was also NEVER offered to the RAAF.
Someone mentioned the F-22 is also not on offer…. this doesnt prove anything.Suddenly it was all dropped and the government announces we are getting the JSF….. WHICH WAS NEVER ON OFFER….
There is a big difference between the F-35 and the F-22. the F-35 from its inception was meant to be exported..the F-22 is not for export. that has been made clear on several occasions so this whole tantrum that the RAAF should get F-22s is what is childish. Australia has’nt contributed a dime on the F-22s development so why should the US sell it if the US does not want to?
21AnkushAustria.
And what do you think that those Boeing guy´s were doing in Saudi Arabia in 2005?
It might not have been an open competition, at least for the public, but Boeing, Dassault and Eurofighter fought bitterly for the Saudi order…
Actualy, Boeing and Eurofighter are still battling each other for follow-on orders in Ryadh. 😉Cheer´s 🙂
Austria was won because Saab goofed up, not because the Typhoon had capabilities that Austria needed that the Gripen could’nt offer. even then, it came very close to being cancelled.
as for Riyadh, that was a completely political choice and based on Saudi Arabia’s scam and kickback ridden defence procurements, hardly surprising..to threaten another nation (UK) to stop an inquiry into kickbacks or they’d scuttle the deal is rarely seen anywhere, but thats what the Saudis did- goes to show what one needed to be able to sell stuff to the Saudis and Al-Yamamah set the foundation for that..Flex has posted in depth on what kinds of things BAe did to please the princes of Saudi Arabia. :rolleyes:
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