21AnkushSuper Hornet Block II+/Rafale F3, license built in India, with 50% offsets, full technology transfer, radar codes and the right to integrate competitors’ weapons and systems, all probably for an impossibly low price…
Am I the only person who thinks the Indians are dreaming?:confused:
They may get one or two of the above concessions, but I don’t see how in the world any of the bidders is going to just hand over their hard-earned, bleeding-edge technology for a bargain basement price. MRCA may be a (potentially) lucrative competition, but none of them are stupid. Or are they? :confused:
no one is dreaming. if they want the order, they’ll bend over, if not, they’re free to ******* off. India can make do with any of the contenders, by adding equipment from its own or Israeli/French sources, and make that particular aircraft into a formidable 4.5th gen fighter. recently EF consortium pulled out of the Norway and Denmark competitions, not over the price, but over schedule.
the fact is that, looking at the Su-30MKI program, its highly likely that the MRCA purchase will see another follow-on batch as well..126+ follow-on options; its too large a number to just be ignored based on unit prices. the company that will win the order will stand to gain in many ways- one is that it has guaranteed after-sales support for several decades, even after full-ToT (even in the case of the MKI, the IAF will most likely go back to Russia to seek a MLU and in the case of the MiG-29 and Mirage, the OEMs are doing the MLUs). the aircraft itself can guarantee itself a few more export orders (again, after the MKI was successful, we see the MKM and MKA, plus others may be interested) and the nation that succeeds in the sale will definitely gain leverage over India.
I’d say that if the OEMs want to have a “dream on” type attitude, then they’re free to continue supplying to their captive markets (i.e. their own forces, as in AdlA, USN, etc.) and be happy and content. :rolleyes:
21Ankushyeah, you are absolutely right. i meant gwalior and wrote pokhran.
but are you sure about kkd also having an ew facility?
iirc it was brought up to international standards in terms of basing and facilities but there werent reports about an ew facility there. it would have acmi though, just like gwalior. or perhaps i missed them?
my mistake, about the way I wrote it. I meant that Gwalior was the only place instrumented for ACMI, but now KKD also has ACMI equipment to allow for exercises with foreign nations. KKD has’nt been reported to have the EW facilities..probably Jamnagar may have some, considering that TACDE is based there.
21AnkushOn the issue of the F-16. If I was Lockheed I would be offering the F-16I with the radar replaced with RANGR (effectively the F-18E/F radar). This would offer proven solutions at the very high end of available technology and capability that would also be as far from the Pakistani F-16’s as possible. A further advantage would be the involvement of the Israelis with whom the Indians have an existing close relationship. The current F-16 is so modular that the only thing it has to have in common with the Pakistani birds is the basic airframe. An F-16 so equipped would likely be the best available aircraft after the Rafale and the Typhoon and would probably work out cheaper.
On the politics front, Pakistan aside India and the US both have a lot in common, they are both liberal capitalist democracies threatened muslim’s and are concerned about China as a peer rival. My own opinion is that there has been a substantial shift in US attitudes toward India and I find it highly unlikely that sanctions would be put in place again, especially now that India is effectively an accepted nuclear power.
Obviously I can still recognise Indian concerns, the F-16 is still operated by Pakistan and India has been bitten by US sanctions once before but as I say I no longer think that these issues are as substntial as some here make out. As for the F-16 being an old airframe design, well so is the F-18 and the Mig-29, not to mention the now out of production Mirage-2000 that was the original desire of the IAF for this requirement. The only ‘new’ airframes on offer here that are likely to win are the Typhoon and the Rafale.
SL, the Gripen could offer all that a souped-up F-16 could, including Israeli/Indian equipment if the IAF so desires..the airframe is a generation ahead of the F-16, and the cost, considering the offset record of Saab and the order size, should be pretty affordable.
with weapons like Meteor, MICA, IRIS-T, Saab Bofors / MBDA Taurus KEPD 350, Saab RBS15F anti-ship missile, and an assortment of dumb/smart bombs mean that the weapons could be sourced from a non-US entity.
21AnkushYour low res graphics card can render it easier on Falcon 4…
😀
it looks very cool ! the Fulcrum is probably the most attractive of fighters, and this scheme really looks good..but does the digital pattern break up the shape better than a regular curve based camos?
21Ankushbefore these fire tests, the rajendra was taken to pokhrans electronic warfare range, where it was tested by the iaf against all the gizmos they have- its detection, lock on etc were all tested and cleared under heavy ew conditions.
slight correction here..the Akash was tested for mobility at the Pokhran ranges, but the electronic counter measures immunity and counter counter measures were tested at Gwalior’s Maharajpur AFS. AFAIK, till recently it was the only AFS that was instrumented to test such capabilities..now Kalaikunda AFS too has that capability thanks to the exercises with foreign nations (US and Singapore).
21Ankushthe Jag’s handling qualities at low altitude are superb. very stable and very little oscillation due to sudden gusts. its a bomb truck, and yet among the world’s bomb trucks, is one of the more nimble ones. some of the A2G capabilities it offered were superior to the Typhoon as it is now, and it was cheaper to operate and less maintenance intensive, than the Tornado..its uptimes were higher and its operational readiness was possible in much quicker time.
Jaguars had better and more accurate ranging options than the Typhoon, which relies on its radar. the Jag, instead, has a laser ranging marked target seeker (LRMTS) and could use barometric ranging. the height channel is exceptionally accurate- with barometric/inertial /GPS, a terrain reference navigation system (TRNS). Alternatively, by marking the target in the HUD, or by helmet sightline, the pilot could accurately derive the height and position of the target from the digital terrain elevation data.
Also, for locating targets of opportunity, as in Afghanistan, the Jag was a better option. it could instantly generate the coordinates using the HMS sightline, loading the coords onto the nav-attack system with a single stick-top button press. there was no need to overfly the target, hence no warning would be given, and no need to dive, which minimised exposure to MANPADS. The target coords could then be transmitted to other aircraft via a datalink.
the other alternative would be the Litening LDP, but it takes more time and is more long-winded than the above mentioned approach.
Jags cost 13k pound sterling per flying hour, whereas Tornadoes cost 23k pound sterling per flying hour. Maintenance man-hours on the Jag was 12.2 vs 17.0 per flying hour on the Tornado.
well, but the UK has been making some seriously strange decisions, mostly for economy’s sake- first the Sea Harrier being retired, so that the RN has no serious air defence capability, and then the Jag fleet was retired in a hurry, just to show that the Typhoon could earn its keep.
21Ankush-w/o weapons maybe (there is no mention on that, indeed), but no w/o infrastructure; if you follow the link posted by bnaf, you will notice that under the “1 unit level trainer” (I supopose that’s the simulator) there is mentioned all the infrastructure, training, services, repairs needed;
-about the price: don’t forget that Morocco is a first time buyer; these a/c are more expensive; if they would allready operate F 16, the unit price will be lower;
-also about price: as I mention in some recent post, people tend to forget the Euro/$ exchange rate. The unit price (program not fly-away) is 100 mil. $, that’s ~ 68 Mil. Euro; how much do you think a Rafale or Grippen would cost?
-I think one of the reson the Rafale didn’t perform so well on international markets (despite being the best Eurocanard) is the narrow choice of weapons-French only. These days, if you have normal relations with US, there is no way (except some healthy bribes :p ) an air force would not go for AMRAAMs or JDAMs Paveways etc.
thanks for pointing that out Aurcov. with infrastructure and support included in the cost, it now looks better. original newspaper reports said 36 F-16s for less than 2 billion $, compared to 18 Rafales were being offered for 3.2 billion $ and that must’ve included infrastructure and support as well. now, looking at the capabilities that a Rafale would’ve offered, surely the Rafales were not that bad an offer. maybe a little more pressure to reduce the price to around 3 billion $ would have helped Morocco’s air force a little more..
18 Rafales vs 24 F-16 Blk 50/52s. you decide whats more tempting. 🙂
21Ankushif Morocco is willing to spend 2.4 billion $s on 24 F-16s, that too (at least appears to be) without the weapons and infrastructure, instead of Rafales, then there must be something wrong in Morocco as well, not just with French armament sales..:rolleyes:
21AnkushMore likely it’s because (as was pointed out earlier) it was from a THAAD intercept. It said “DOD” right on the clip. :diablo:
the video that Nick was referring to has nothing to do with the US DoD..its a video of the AAD/Prithvi intercept from a console on the ground..download it and see. :rolleyes:
21AnkushTwo Akash missiles ripple fired, hit single target
http://www.hindu.com/2007/12/20/stories/2007122055481200.htm
T.S. Subramanian
CHENNAI: In a demonstration of the maturity of the Indian technology in the surface-to-air missile (SAM) defence system, two Akash missiles were fired on Wednesday from a mobile launcher at a single target, and this “ripple event” turned out to be a success, according to officials of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).
The trial is part of a 10-day campaign involving the firing of several Akash missiles with radars, launchers and support systems in the presence of the eventual user, the Indian Air Force.
The two missiles were fired from a truck at the Integrated Test Range at Chandipur, near Balasore, Orissa.
Prahlada, Chief Controller, Research and Development, DRDO, said from Chandipur: “Today, the IAF wanted us to fire two missiles against a single target to increase the probability of the kill. This [event] shows the capability of the radar, the supporting systems and the launcher to guide more than one missile against the same target. So we demonstrated it. It is a big milestone in the Akash system.” The target was a body towed by a pilot-less target aircraft.
Mr. Prahlada said: “We have not only demonstrated the missiles’ flight but also shown the functioning of the integrated air defence system. This will give the user confidence in the maturity of the Indian technology in the SAM defence system. This is an opportunity to break away from the imported systems. The system will be customised and perfected as per the user’s feedback.”
21AnkushWhen you get right down to it. The end user (Indian Air Force) has clearly stated the LCA is not living up to its expectation…………..Further, it will take many more years and a great sum of money. To “try” and resolve the many issue with the design. Personally, I don’t see the project as viable anymore?:confused:
more bs. IAF’s ACM is on record as having said that the IAF is looking to induct the Tejas as its main lightweight fighter..there is an interview of his that was posted on this very forum. I’ll find the related excerpts and post them. As for the IAF, it has NEVER stated that the Tejas is not living upto its expectations..its Ravi Sharma, that lifafa journo who has always been its detractor, writing articles that have been proven wrong time and again..understandably, he has NEVER written about any of the recent weaponisation activities- the drop tank carriage, R-73 test, Litening test..nothing. the whole weight issue he raised (2000 kg overweight he claimed!!!:mad: ) was pure and utter BS. anyhow, I know it serves your purpose well to continue to look at his articles and raise alarm bells.
What about the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) induction?
The IAF has detailed an Air Vice Marshal to look into the process of LCA induction. Already, four LCAs are flying. Pending issues have been sorted out to complete the project. By 2010, the IAF will have its first squadron of LCAs flying.
You have talked about reducing the number of aircraft types in the IAF fleet. The MRCA contenders have aircraft that are similar to the aircraft already part of the IAF fleet. Does it indicate any kind of preference the IAF may have towards any of the six contending aircraft for the MRCA deal?
IAF already has Su-30 MKI and we intend to get the LCA into the fleet. That apart, the MRCA will narrow down the fleet inventory to just two or three aircraft ultimately. How we would achieve this is to be seen, but it will certainly ease maintenance concerns and issues.
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=75041&page=5
21Ankushhere is what the IAF’s ACM has to say about indigenisation. i’ve stressed on this before as well, that the Tejas is more than just a fighter for India..its an entire aerospace industry development program. the spinoffs from it are already visible in avionics used on the Su-30MKI, Jag upgrade, SHar upgrade, MiG-27 upgrade and MiG-21 Bison upgrade..
the HJT-36 Sitara was developed in 2.5 years time from program concept to prototype flight, thanks to the experience gained from the Tejas. for the upcoming MiG-29 and Mirage-2000 upgrades as well, avionics developed for the Tejas will be used..
whereas, by simple ToT, India is’nt gaining enough knowhow..the Al-31F is manufactured in India and yet, most of the knowledge gained will be in the sphere of production and manufacturing. India wont try to reverse engineer an Al-31 into a WS-10 type engine..that kind of mindset does not exist, fortunately or unfortunately.
http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=526181
Air Chief calls for indigenisation in defence technology
BANGALORE,DEC11 (PTI)
India needs to step up efforts to indigenise defence technology to reduce dependency on foreign countries and to achieve self-sufficiency, Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal, F H Major, said today.“Instead of depending upon foreign countries for defence technology like aerospace, we must step up our efforts towards indigenisation in defence technology,” he said, inaugurating the ‘silver jubilee International Radar Symposia India-2007’ here today.
“We must become self-sufficient in meeting our defence needs and this requires the defence PSUs to focus on research and development,” he said.
Long-gestation period in defence projects, which had been a nagging problem in the earlier years, has been overcome to some extent. However, there is urgent need for speedy implementation of the projects with strigent quality control, the Air Chief said.
“We must harness the talent for R&D. Premier institutions like IITs must allocate more funds towards R & D and provide the right impetus,” he said.
The Air Chief Marshal, however, lauded the steady efforts being made in the sphere of indigenisation. India is shortly coming out with airborne early warning and control system (AWACS).Indian Air Force wants to upgrade its surveillance and air defence capabilities, he said.
“Even as there is a gap between what others (countries) are doing and what we are doing, the doors are wide upen for us to take up the challenges,” he said.
Earlier, Dr A K Singh (Chair, Technical Programme Committee) said private industries are now engaged in in-house R&D efforts,largely aimed at their customers based abroad.
Channelling this to the benefit of the country’s security and defence needs calls for a policy change from R&D, production, users and inspection agencies,he said.
“They (inspection agencies) must own the programmes. Projects have to be conceived, planned; system engineering done, realised, evaluated and produced not only by a single agency but by the team effort participated by all stakeholders,” he said.
Harnessing the pool of talent in private sector R&D and production to defence and national security requirements is the need of the hour, Singh said.
V V R Sastry, Chairman and Managing Director (CMD) Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) highlighted the strides made in radar production by BEL supported with research by LRDE (Electronic and Radar Development Research Establishments).
21AnkushNo Farooq, that pic of the PV-1 flying does not have the Litening..as you can see in the other pic, the Litening is mounted on a port side under-fuselage pylon, just in front of the main centreline wet pylon.
The only possible problem I can think of is that the Tejas was designed keeping in mind the Kaveri engine’s specs, not the F-404. Also, being flat-rated, the Kaveri was supposed to take care of drop in thrust at low altitudes in a hot and humid conditions. not having that feature, the F-404 suffered from drop in thrust at sea-level conditions when the Tejas was tested at Arakkonam, which is essentially an Indian Navy station, on the coast. previously, the Tejas was tested from Bangalore, which is at an elevation of 2900 ft ASL, and no such problems were noticed.
the F-404 IN20 engine in place of the F2J3, has 10% extra thrust, which will be useful..also the Kaveri K9+ series engine is already producing thrust equivalent to the F-404, but the problem lies in the afterburner and the metallurgy of compressor blades that are failing prematurely. the JV with Snecma or Saturn will be for producing a K10 series engine that will be able to produce as much thrust as the IAF will mandate in its Air Staff Requirements.
21AnkushLitening integrated with Tejas and a pic of PV-1 in flight.
21AnkushI wont even bother responding to your tripe. the Tejas weaponisation is progressing, with the Litening being tested just about a month after the R-73 was test fired. expect bombs to be carried soon for captive trials and then early next year will be bomb separation trials.
http://frontierindia.net/litening-pod-tested-on-lca-tejas/
Litening pod tested on LCA Tejas
Written on December 11, 2007 – 6:49 pm | by FIDSNS |The Tejas LCA programme received a major fillip with the first successful flight test using the ‘Litening’ pod which can provide the pilot with day and night pictures of terrain, laser ranging and laser spot seeking (LDP). In a flawless flight on 10 Dec 07, Prototype Vehicle-2 took off with the LDP at around 1630 hrs and completed a landmark flight in which all test objectives were achieved.
Wg Cdr N Tiwari of the National Flight Test centre flew the flight. Wg Cdr M Prabhu as the Test Director, Mr RS Rao, Project Direct (Systems) and Mr JJ Jhadhav, Deputy Project Director were present at the telemetry station to monitor the performance. The performance is as per the design.
The LCA Team consisting members from IAF, HAL-ARDC ADA, CEMILAC and DG-AQA have together worked for several months to make this success in the first attempt. Carriage of the LDP confers a significant precision strike capability to the Tejas in conjunction with laser guided bombs or what are commonly referred to as “smart bombs”.
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