21Ankushappears from online sources that the Hawk is pretty darn expensive ! 18 million pounds as per most sources ! thats nearly $ 25 million..
21AnkushAdvanced stealth fighter aircraft India-Russia’s new joint venture
After six years of negotiations on jointly developing an advanced fifth generation fighter aircraft with stealth features, New Delhi and Moscow today reached an agreement at a meeting of their Defence Ministers.
A formal pact will be be signed shortly after the deal is fine-tuned.
Designated PAK-FA, the multi-billion dollar programme will be the largest and most complex in Indo-Russian military cooperation, dwarfing BrahMos, the only true joint military project between the two countries as of now.
Fronted by Sukhoi Design Bureau, the PAK-FA will give both countries a distinct leap in fighter technology – the Russians have promised a first flight as early as 2009, and are open to a BrahMos-style model for development with New Delhi. In the next decade, the fighter will be produced in large numbers to replace legacy fighters in both countries’ air forces, including MiG-29s, Jaguars and Mirage-2000s.
New Delhi was initially reluctant to embark upon a programme that was already past its basic design phase in Russia, but has now reconciled itself to making a possible lateral entry into the programme, assured by Moscow that progress off the drawing board will be spearheaded by both countries.
The programme envisages a fighter with all fifth generation capabilities. These include advanced stealth features, a full composite airframe, a crucial active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, advanced integrated onboard sensors, vectored thrust nozzles for superior manoeuvrability, the ability to deploy beyond visual range and ground attack missiles and importantly, the ability to supercruise – fly at supersonic velocities without the use of engine afterburners.
In response to a question from The Indian Express, Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov said, “The programme, based on a Sukhoi project, is in its third year now in Russia and draws substantial funds from our national budget. India has informed us that they have made a final choice. We can now open out contractual work to India.”
Defence Minister AK Antony said “necessary measures are being taken to expeditiously finalise the respective inter-governmental agreement in this regard.”
Four other inter-government agreements were signed today. These include the transfer of technology to license produce RD-33 jet engines for MiG-29 fighters at HAL’s Koraput facility and, as reported by The Indian Express on January 11, the protocol of intent on the joint development and production of a Multi-role Transport Aircraft (MTA).
Other issues that came up at the sixth meeting of the Inter-governmental Commission on Military Technical Cooperation included the sale of 80 Mi-17 helicopters, 347 T-90 tanks and additional Su-30MKI fighters. The next inter-governmental commission meeting will take place in Russia later this year.
21AnkushI will avoid lowering myself to the level of resorting to insults.
If you read my previous posts you would find that I dont find it improbable at all that the RAAF would order more Super Hornets. If you are to tell us that AW&ST is infallible you are wasting your breath, becouse as with every other publication it is not.
insults ? you resort to wisecracks on smoke machines and if I call you a wiseass you are offended ? :rolleyes: anyway, my question was, did AW&ST publish the reports that you are talking about ? if not, just say no, dont need to question their reliability.
21AnkushNick/Ankush…wrt the number of MMRCA, i was making the very same point as yous, i.e. it doesn’t make sense to aquire it in lower numbers:)
yes and Vikas, the IAF takes the 126 number very seriously..gives a total of 6 squadrons of MRCA including reserves. would replace the MiG-23s, MiG-27s in the IAF..more would be required as the Jags start to retire.
21AnkushSmoke making machines, they give the appearance of smoke without producing any fire. If these machines did not exist we would find that China would have 300 Mig-31’s Iran would have huge numbers of Flankers and their F-14s would have a Russian radar and engines.
did AW&ST publish reports on that ? and Mr.Wiseass, does it really seem as improbable to you that the RAAF would want to go in for a follow-on order of SHs ?
21AnkushIf i remember correcly (???) reason for such a huge MKI order in the first place was economic feasibility.
Vikas, its the requirement for total numbers, not just the economic feasibility of the initial purchase. after all, the user has to be spending a great deal on product support/maintenance later on, which would pan out the initial savings on buying big numbers- so this is not the only reason for a large order. the IAF has a certain requirement of fighter numbers, and to make the fleet more or less centered on 3-4 types, its necessary that each be around the 200 mark to come up to the 800 figure that the IAF aspires to have.
How does this 30% compare with other modern fighters such as F-22/JSF and Typhoon/Rafale/Gripen etc???
30% by weight would be on the lines of any of the 4th-5th gen fighters. it has to be more by airframe and wing surface area- should be closer to 80-90% (similar to the Tejas).
21Ankushyes but where there is smoke, there must be some fire..as for the Rafale negotiations, that is true as well.
besides, a follow-on order must be easier than a brand-new purchase. if India’s MoD can be tricked into a fast-track procurement based on a follow-on purchase, then getting the Australian govt. to agree to more SH’s should be much easier, if the need exists.
21AnkushSingapore has not yet evaluated the Hawk 128, so where is the question of a decision being made ? even UAE has only just looked at the Hawk..will take some time to decide..and its cheaper too is’nt it ? the Hawks are priced at around $ 15 mil a pop ?
21AnkushNo Swerve, AW&ST recently had an article that said that a repeat 24 SH order by RAAF was likely and this time they wanted 6-8 EF/A-18 G Growlers as well..they also plan on increasing the total F-35 buy to about 120 from the current 100 planned.
21AnkushYeah, but the second batch of SHs will come with new spares and training/ infrastructure as well, wont it?
Because the first deal was for 24 Hornets in total.
whereas the MKIs would not need any additional investment for training/infrastructure ? maybe yes..considering that for these 40 MKIs, HAL will be the one assembling the SKD kits using existing assembly infrastructure and complete production line is already established in India, the cost is probably already amortised over the previous purchase.
does the IAF’s new deal include arms or will that be a separate purchase?
3 new squadrons of Su-30MKIs by 2010 means that some of the effects of the MiG-21s, MiG-23s and oldest MiG-27s retiring will be mitigated..already the dedicated recon task of the MiG-25 is to be taken over by a multi-role Su-30MKI squadron at Bareilly, so maybe 1 to 1 numerical correspondance of retirements vs inductions is not required..although I’d still like the IAF to push the MoD for much larger total fleet numbers.
21Ankushagreed that the IAF has the infrastructure to support the MKI, but I’d like to see how much the follow on RAAF F/A-18 E/F deal costs them..they’ve also paid up for the training, manuals, spares support, etc. so it’ll be worth seeing how much the RAAF pays for each of their SHs.
21Ankushthe article is inaccurate in that the IAF does not operate the MICA and even for the upcoming Mirage upgrades, its not sure if the missiles to be bought are the MICA or the Derby/Python. :rolleyes:
As for ACMI, the Gwalior AFS where the Exercises were carried out is ACMI equipped. and now Kalaikunda AFS is also ACMI equipped.
As for the excuse that the F-15s were not AESA equipped, the IAF did’nt bring in the MKI to face it either, so its not like the IAF was using its most sophisticated fighter and using a handicap. And both sides’ missiles were restricted to a 20 mi. range..there again, the Su-30s were capable of firing the R-77 at longer ranges, so its not like as if the AIM-120s were going to be a decisive advantage for the USAF..
21AnkushFor what its worth, there’s a news report claiming that the IAF has signed a deal with Rosboronexport for the purchase of 40 Su-30MKIs..if accurate, that takes the total contracted Su-30MKIs for the IAF to 230..
A Russian business news sources “Vedomosti” reports that on 10 Oct, 2007 (Wednesday), Rosoboronexport and HAL signed a contract to supply India for 40 Air Force fighter aircraft Su-30MKI machinery worth more than 1.6 billion dollors, reported the newspaper “Vedomosti” with a reference to the source in the government of the Russian Federation. Vedomosti mentions that the source is close to the Ministry of Defense.
The “Rosoboronexport ” and corporation “Irkut”, at Irkutsk plant which they will manufacture these planes before their final assembling in India at plant HAL, categorically refused to comment.
21AnkushIt’s the ‘glacial speeds’ that may yet kill the MMRCA. But don’t despair! Rejoice!!:)
I’m sure upgraded Mirage 2Ks, MiG-29s (to near ’35 standard), AESA equiped Su-30s can hold on ’till 2020 (at the latest).
I dont think that the MRCA project could get killed. just look at the AJT project- the Hawk procurement was late by at least a decade, but whenever it comes in, its welcome. Its not an obsolete aircraft by any stretch of the imagination, and its Hawk 128 variant (about the same as the IAF’s Mk 132) is in the race even in Singapore and UAE’s competitions.
In the meantime, DRDO/HAL/ADA can suggest a Combat Advanced Trainer for future requirements, but the Hawk is going ahead nevertheless.
unfortunately the MRCA too will go the same way, but I hope that the MRCA also has the same precedent, where the IAF’s technical evaluation prefers a particular type (Hawk in the AJT case), and even if its not the cheapest, its what gets procured (MiG-AT, L-159, etc. were cheaper but the IAF’s preference was for the Hawk).
I hope that with the IAF’s Fifth Gen fighter going to the Sukhoi Bureau, we’ve appeased the Russians enough for us not to have to be saddled with the MiG-35 as well just to keep good terms with them.
21Ankushthe MRCA is going to be a reality. face it. its a fact that Indian MoD acquisitions occur at glacial speeds and we all know it, but the fact is also that the IAF has moved mountains to get them to even post the RFPs, so there is NO chance that it would let the MRCA competition be called off.
None of the other options that any of you are bandying about are going to happen in any more of a hurry than the MRCA program..just look at the Mirage-2000 upgrades ! its been talked of since 2 years now, and its not yet been signed ! eventually when it does get signed, the first 2 upgraded Mirage-2k will only be ready in 2 years, after which the rest will be upgraded at a rate of 2-3 per month, depending on what the MoD decides..that means another 2.5 years for the complete fleet to be upgraded to the -5 Mk.2 standard.
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