Interesting ! Would this be the first time that Germany and France, 2 NATO nations would be evaluating an in-service Russian system for their services ??

India too may be interested in buying limited numbers of Mi-26 upgraded helos..or upgrading its current fleet to the new standards..new engines and avionics would be very useful for this fascinating helo…

You can’t be serious.

I have been following this helicopter for a couple of years now and am really quite impressed with the design. It seems to be one of the most practical and advanced helicopters coming out of Russia right now. It could be a real good way to break into some Western markets if they start advertising well.

The Ansat-2RC seems like an especially good option for countries like the Philippines that need a few cheap attack helicopters that are real attack helicopters but have a small pricetag and low operating costs. It’s actually fairly innovative and, if they play their cards right, it could be a serious competitor to the Dhruv. Kazan needs to start offering them bundled with Mi-17s to get them out on the market. Some Ansat-Us could be offered with Mi-17s in a “training package” or some such.

Logan, what you called the Dhruv WSI is actually the Light Combat Heli (LCH), which although a derivative of the Dhruv is substantially different externally. The Dhruv WSI is basically an armed variant of the Dhruv which can carry troops.

here’s a video of it at its first flight in Bangalore.
Dhruv WSI First flight

Logan, if you look at mockups of the LCH derivative of the Dhruv, you’ll find some similarities between the looks of the Ansat ARH and the LCH..

LCH mockup

It can’t compete with the LCH for India’s domestic market, but abroad, it certainly can, if its competitively priced and aggressively marketed.

Dhruv WSI pics..

I never proposed the Hornet for the IN.:rolleyes: So how many export orders does the LCA have?:rolleyes:

the point was that you were comparing apples to oranges. nevermind.

With all dues respect Nick, The Super whorenet may be a piece of junk that was thrust upon the USN after all their cool toys got canned, but it has an advantage over the LCA in that it is in widespread USN service and has attained an export order

How does one export order to the RAAF that already operates the Hornet count as being an advantage? the N-LCA is already committed for the IN, and there’s no going back on that. As for the SHornet, forget it, the IN wont even look at it.

We have yet to see any concrete evidence that the LCA will be ordered in anywhere near the numbers that the MMRCA and Su-30 have/ will be and the latest reports of thrust problems do not inspire a massive amount of faith. I would love nothing better than for 100+ LCA’s with AESA and an indigenous BVRAAM to be ordered but it has yet to happen, that is of course not saying that it wont but in the mean time I think it is best to reserve judgment. That is not to say that the project has not had huge benefits for Indian industry and for the IAF all ready becouse it clearly has.

the whole issue of thrust has been blown out of proportion..the fact is that the F-404 F2J3 engine on the current prototypes has a max installed thrust of 80.5 kN. The comparison between the 3 engines is
F404-F2J3 -18,100 lb (80.50 kN)
F404-IN20> 19,000 lb (85 kN)
Kaveri -20,200 lb (89.86 kN) (designed thrust, and has achieved 90% of that)

From GE’s website-“Based on the F404-GE-402, the F404-GE-IN20 is the highest rated F404 model and includes a higher-flow fan, increased thrust, a Full Authority Digital Electronic Control (FADEC) system, single-crystal turbine blades and a variety of single-engine features.”

Also, from GE’s website:”F404-IN20 validation testing begins in the third quarter 2005 with initial deliveries of production engines for the India Light Combat Aircraft (Tejas) program scheduled for early 2006. Testing will include validation of the control schedules and all mechanical systems. The engine has generated more than 19,000 pounds (85 kN) thrust during the program. Indian defense officials have ordered 17 engines to power initial Tejas production aircraft and have expressed interest in procuring 50 production engines to power follow-on aircraft.

So, the message is clear, that there will be more IN20s purchased to power the first 3 or so squadrons and then the Kaveri had better come online. The additional power of the IN20 as well as the FADEC will help overcome the sea level speed issues, but the problem is the fact that the Tejas had been designed keeping in mind the Kaveri, but with it not being installed as yet, its had to do with making a few mods for the F-404 series engines,which is not the optimum solution..

One just needs to see how the Kaveri development goes now, with either Snecma or Saturn helping GTRE overcome the issues and productionising it.

Analysis: Russia-China military cooperation on the rocks
HONG KONG, Aug. 24
ANDREI CHANG

Column: Military Might
China is running into problems in its military technology dealings with Russia. The country has postponed high-level military talks on defense technology and stopped all new military contracts until Russia delivers an overdue shipment of aircraft, according to industry sources in both countries.

China has also complained about the quality of Russian weapons. Russian dealers, on the other hand, are upset about blatant Chinese imitations of their products, built from designs supplied in the understanding that the weapons were to be purchased.

The aircraft issue involves a deal signed in 2005 whereby China agreed to purchase from Russia 30 IL-76 transport aircraft and eight IL-78 aerial refueling tankers. However, Tashkent Aircraft Plant, based in the capital of Uzbekistan, which was to have manufactured the IL-76 and IL-78, declared soon after the signing that the plant was unable to build the planes independently due to financial and technical problems.

To resolve this issue, Russia has given three proposals to the Chinese side, according to a source from Rosoboroonexport, a state-owned military trading company. One is to coproduce the plane’s parts in Tashkent and Russian Ulianovsk or Voronezh aviation factories, with final assembly of the IL-76 in Voronezh. The second is to fully manufacture the aircraft in Russia. The third is to assemble all the planes in Tashkent with most of the parts produced in Russia.

Whichever solution is selected, additional investment will be required from the Russian side to add new equipment to the Ulianovsk and Voronezh aviation factories. Consequently, Rosoboroonexport has asked the Chinese partner to accept a higher price for the aircraft.

China’s response has been to twice postpone an annual high-level conference on cooperation in defense technology. Beijing has indicated that the condition to restart the talks is for Russia to fulfill the aircraft contract. Russia contends that the existence of this problem is reason enough to hold new discussions, without any condition.

This Chinese tendency to set preconditions for political talks and other negotiations is well-known to U.S. and Japanese negotiators. Now the strategy is being applied to the Russians.

To add salt to the wound, China has also criticized the quality of some Russian weapons it previously purchased. For example, it has complained of the short service life of optical/electronic detection devices (IRST) for the SU-27SK fighter. The Russian factory has deflected the blame, saying the problems are caused by improper usage. Photos of the IRST used for the Chinese air force’s SU-27SK show that they are used without protective coverings even in inclement weather.

One of the biggest buyers of Russian arms, the Chinese air force, or PLAAF, has purchased 100 advanced Su30MKK multipurpose fighters and 48 earlier version SU-27SK fighters. It also obtained license production rights for the 200 SU-27SK, which started in 1996. However, the contract was suspended after 95 China-made J11A were completed last year. Russia reportedly backed out of the deal due to technical reservations.

The Chinese navy also received 12 Kilo Class 877/636 diesel submarines and four Type 956E/EM missile destroyers, other naval subsystems for Chinese carriers, and new warships as well as more than eight battalions of S-300PMU/PMU-1 and another eight battalions of S-300PMU-2 long range surface-to-air missiles, deployed by the Chinese air force in recent decades.

For its part, Moscow is unhappy with China’s massive production of imitation versions of Russian weapons. Many Russian arms manufacturers have told the Western press how surprised they were by the scale of China’s copycat capabilities. In many cases, Chinese dealers will express their intention to purchase Russian arms, begin negotiations, ask as many technical questions as possible, take photos and videos of the weapons, request all available documents, come back to the table to “discuss” more technical issues, and after a few more “negotiations,” the dealers disappear. Two or three years later, a Chinese copy of the weapon under discussion appears on the international market.

A typical example is the Chinese A100 multiple launch rocket system (MLRS), an imitation of the Russian SMERCH MLRS, without even superficial changes in shape. The Chinese PLZ05 155-mm self-propelled gun (SPG) system is also a copy of the Russian 2S19M1 SPG.

The same trick has been used by the air force and navy. In the mid-1990s, China asked the Russian Phazotron Radar Design Bureau to help the PLAAF to upgrade their F8II fighters. For this purpose, China purchased two ZHUK-8II airborne radars from Phazotron. Certainly many technical documents were transferred, as the Chinese had promised to buy at least 100 of the radar devices. But, the Chinese never came back. Two years ago, the new Chinese F8IIM fighter was released with the new “indigenous multi-function radar.”

“That is a copy of our radar,” the designer of Phazotrol told this author. “We were so inexperienced at that time.”

Along with the Type 956E/EM missile destroyer, the Chinese navy received subsystems from Russia including the Fregat M2EM 3D radar and MR-90 tracking radar and sonar. The same radar system has been seen on China’s domestic Type 054A missile frigate (FFG).

“This is our radar!” was the first comment by Russian designers from Salyut factory when they saw photos of the 054A FFG taken from far. After more careful examination, they added, “Unbelievable, the speed at which they were copied.”

Italy and France had similar experiences during their military cooperation honeymoon with China in the 1980s. At that time, China purchased two sets of Sea Tiger shipborne radars, two sets of Crotale air defense missiles, and two sets of the TAVITAC naval command and control systems from France, and a few sets of the sonar and EW systems from Italy. Chinese versions of the above systems are fitted on Chinese navy battleships today.

The winner will be built in India with much cheaper labor costs. So, while the West has suffered in the past. That should help close the gap somewhat. Just like buying a car its a compromise. Capability VS Cost………..India will have to decide.:D

may not be necessarily true. the HAL built Su-30MKI costs more than the Irkut built Su-30MKI. and, the cost of ToT has to be amortized over the number that will be built in India. its not going to be cheap. the MiG-35 and the Gripen may be the best bets in terms of cost.

what does surprise me is the camo scheme. that is surely not the Indian Navy’s camo, which is ghost grey for its SHar fleet. maybe the test phase developmental aircraft will have this camo till the time they need to be handed over to the IN.

I would think that the same limitations imposed on the Tornado relating to its basing would extend to the Typhoon as well..no STOVL for it either, so it too would be handicapped similarly to the Tornado.