21AnkushBORDEAUX (FRANCE): With the Indian government set to ask for proposals to upgrade its fleet of Mirage 2000 fighters, French defence and aerospace company Thales will soon enter into a pact with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) to jointly bid for the project, top officials said here.
Thales has also committed itself to a 30 percent offsets clause for the upgrade, unlike some purchases in the past like Russia’s Sukhoi-30s and MI-17 choppers in which upgrades were taken as part of the original deal, the officials added.
“I think, things are finally moving forward,” said Jean-Paul Perrier, executive vice president for the $17-billion French giant, referring to the government’s intention since two years ago to upgrade its fleet of 51 Mirage 2000 fighters.
“We have the full knowledge and the solutions for a low-risk and cost-effective upgrade of Mirage 2000. Thales will also cooperate with Indian and other French industries for the project,” Perrier said.
Apart from HAL, other Indian companies that are expected to partner with Thales in the upgrade project include the Department of Aviation Research and Bharat Electronics Ltd that has had a long association with the French company.
The Thales-HAL consortium will include Dassault, which shut down the production line for Mirage 2000s five years ago. Dassault is also in the race to sell 126 multi-role combat aircraft, Renault,(:rolleyes:) to India to replace the MiG-21 fleet.
The Indian Air Force (IAF) had approached Thales in 2005 for upgrading the avionics of Mirage 2000 as also its fleet-operational capability and the air-to-air and the air-to-ground missile superiority for taking on multiple targets.
The upgrade features will include multi-target, multi-mode radar, multi-channel digital video and data recording, mission data processing unit, mass memory, LCD glass cockpit and improved tactical and long-range weapon firing.
“The upgrade will also enhance and extend the weapon stealth and operations with additional capabilities to engage ground targets even while countering airborne threats,” said Frederic Andre, director for Thales Mirage retrofit programme.
At present, eight countries, including India, fly Mirage 2000s. They are Egypt, France, Greece, Peru, Qatar, Taiwan and the United Arab Emirates (UAE). Of them, France, Greece and the UAE have opted for Thales upgrades.
Officials from Thales and the defence ministry have discussed the finer points of the upgrade to increase the lifespan of the aircraft, which were inducted by the IAF in the 1980s, by around 20-25 years, officials said.
“If we are given the go ahead today, we should be able to retrofit the first set of two aircraft in two years – modified and qualified,” Andre said. “Then, based on what the Indian government wants, we can look at two-three aircraft a month.”
The aerospace giant has provided avionics and other high-technology systems to most planes flown by the IAF, like the Mirage 2000, SU-30 and MIG-29K, as also for aircraft carrier Gorshkov.
21AnkushIndia evaluated the S-300V for sure, and found it wanting in the ATBM role.
The same problem with the PAC series- too limited against targets with very short warning time.
yes but the way Joey puts it, people would think the negotiations for getting the system had already been underway.
21AnkushWhere is the racism?
India graduates very large number of engineers, far larger than the needs of domestic industry and business. So many India engineers are forced to emigrate to find work. It all comes down to supply and demand. If wage scales in India were equal to those in the west, you would see an immediate end to the mass migration of India professionals. It all comes down to money. Individuals seek the highest wages, while businesses seek the workers who will accept the lowest wages.
Now if you want to find racism, look to India. Why are the lower castes and certain religious minorities so poorly represented in India’s tech sector?
where is the racism you ask ?? look at your BS post earlier. the report posted by Singha about increase in rent clearly mentioned that the scientists and engineers posted in Israel were govt. sponsored..
and you wrote “‘What does that prove? There are Indian engineers working in nearly every developed country. Why? Because Indian engineers work for relatively low wages. Cheap labor -pure and simple. Indian engineers will work for less money than their American, European or Israei counterparts.It remains to be seen if the Indian “scientists” in question are senior level project managers or entry level staffers.“
see the racism here ? 😡
singling out Indian engineers as working for far less money (in the respective countries that is:rolleyes: and illegally as you also claim) than American, European and Israeli engineers conveniently ignores that there are engineers of other nationalities working in these countries too- Pakistan, China and a lot of other asian countries and the only reason they are there is because they bring along skills not easily obtained in these countries.
It all come down to money. If an engineer from country X will do the work for less than an engineer from country Y, guess who’ll get the job? The cheapest worker always gets the job. At the moment, India is frequently the lowest cost source of engineers. At some point that might change, so you might see Indian engineers replaced by cheaper foriegn professionals from another nation.
and that is globalisation- not brought upon the world by cheap Indian labour, but by market forces that realise that in order to be cost competitive, they need to be able to make use of the lower wages prevailing in these countries..once again I ask, what makes China so lucrative to these nations for them to want to invest there ?? cheap labour is one of the most important aspects of that attraction- take that away, and China would have lost its big trump card and come on par with the more expensive Western nations. :rolleyes: you have hardly any reason to be patronising and racist since you yourself come from one of the Asian ‘cheap labour’ economies..:rolleyes:
21AnkushWrong again, There were no Domestic project in LRSAM role to begin with. S300 was it was supposed to be, now no more S300 but Barak ER.
Where does Our New ABM fits into can only be answered with upcoming tests, just like Akash has gone through some ODD 30~40 succesful tests.
you keep talking about the S-300PMU as if India had almost completed evaluations and was negotiating for it. Provide the source for that. AFAIK, India was considering other options too, Patriot included.
21AnkushAnother source for the news about the go ahead for the new missile to be developed with Israel for the IAF.
New Delhi, July 12: The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) will get much-needed help for its missile programme with the Cabinet approving a new joint venture with Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) to develop a new range of surface-to-air missiles.
The joint venture, given the go ahead by the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) on Thursday, will work towards developing an air defence system for the Indian Air Force (IAF) to replace its ageing Pechora missiles. The Israeli help comes after repeated delays in the indigenous Akash surface to air missile project that is still to undergo user trials.
While DRDO remained elusive on details of the agreement, sources indicated that the new generation missile would be based on the Barak missile system currently in service with the Navy. “It is still under discussion. We cannot talk more about it,” DRDO Chief M Natarajan said.
Sources said the air defence system is likely to be a long-range version of the Barak with a range of up to 150 km for protection against a variety of aerial threats. The IAF is looking at 18 new surface-to-air (SAM) missiles systems to replace the Russian Pechora missiles.
The new generation SAMs will be the second range of Israeli missiles to be inducted into the IAF. India had earlier signed an Rs 180 crore deal with Israel to acquire Spyder quick reaction surface to air missile systems for countering threats from low-flying aircraft.
The approval came at a meeting chaired by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh that included Defence Minister A K Antony, External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee, Finance Minister P Chidambaram and Home Minister Shivraj Patil.
21AnkushBharat Rakshak too has some great pics..am just posting the link as the pics are copyrighted to Phil Camp.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/Special/Exercises/Indradhanush02/?g2_page=2
21Ankushlets get back to the topic of the thread.
21AnkushMy understanding is that Indian engineers, scientists and technicians are willing to work offshore because they pay much better than at home. And they move back home if offered equal to better wages. They are certainly not being paid India wage scales in other countries.
The same is true with any other Asian country.
Engineers regardless of race, are picked to work in the US and given visas due to particular talents and personality. Thus they are picked on a case to case basis and on the complete basis of the individual itself. Race or nationality is not a factor.
absolutely. the wages abroad are higher and that obviously is a draw for any person who can secure work. and yes, some do like to move back if offered very good wages in India itself. but that is the same in all other Asian countries where wages are lower than in western countries..for a troll like TinWing to say that Indians are working in Israel only because they charge less without even knowing the context of their employment (in that news case it was Indian scientists and engineers working on a defence program) was BS and pure racism.
and no employer in a western nation will employ them unless they have the necessary skills to be employed regardless of their belonging to their own race/religion.
21AnkushVery pro business government, from the highest echelons of the party to the lowly village official. This is a government that will rent space in the People’s Hall, the most sacred place of Chinese Communism—to Ford, GM or McDonald’s to launch their new products. This is a government who knows who the real powers are, so when they visit the US, they check first with the guys who really run the country (Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, etc,.) before checking in with the guy at the White House.
Practical and immediete economic management.
The highest savings rate in the world.
Superior transportation, communication and computer infrastructure, including the highest internet bandwidth in the world.
Very high literacy rates.
And of course, certainly not the least, sheer aggressive capitalistic materialistic greed. This is the same country where the abott of a certain famous Buddist temple would globally copyright its name so anyone who uses the world Shaolin or Xiaolin in the media are going to pay their dues.
none of which would matter if the labour rates were not low compared to Western nations..something TinWing conveniently ignores when he makes racist remarks about how Indian engineers will work for lower than average wages..as if Chinese or people from other countries who work on outsourced jobs are any better and command higher or equivalent wages due to better qualifications..:rolleyes: anyhow, his comments are nothing more than ignorance and racism being displayed blatantly.
21AnkushWho has to maneuver? As in most cases a WVR engagement is unlikely……:p
unfortunately, most Air Forces dont assume that- even if the F-18E/F has a first detection advantage, it cant make use of it due to the lack of long range on its AMRAAMs. a Meteor equipped opponent would more likely take a first shot at it..and if both do evade the BVR shots and get into the merge, then guess whose ass gets chewed up ? :dev2:
21Ankushright said Vikas, considering that the reputation of the Typhoon was given a big shot in the arm based on simulations that gave it an overwhelming advantage over the Su-35, it has more to lose than does the MKI..
but only very substantial RCS reductions on the Typhoon can give it a reduction worthwhile for it to have a decisive advantage in BVR..the ranges at which the MKI will detect even a clean Typhoon would be outside any AMRAAM variant range, so there is no first shot advantage here..and then again, if one is to consider the E-3D providing coverage to both, then there is no real advantage to either.
as for WVR maneuverability, the MKI is a 3D TVC equipped fighter that will be far more capable in its instantaneous nose pointing ability as compared to the Typhoon..it carries more than adequate internal fuel so losing energy in turning fights is not that big a deal and there are no drop-tank hassles..add to that the HMS+R-73 combo, a dedicated WSO and you have tremendous off-bore sight ability apart from general WVR.
so really, I fail to see how the Typhoon would ‘eat’ an MKI in either BVR or WVR unless its RCS is really as low as the F-22..which it obviously is’nt. looks more like it’ll come down to pilot skills and situational awareness.
21AnkushWhat does that prove? There are Indian engineers working in nearly every developed country. Why? Because Indian engineers work for relatively low wages. Cheap labor -pure and simple. Indian engineers will work for less money than their American, European or Israei counterparts.
It remains to be seen if the Indian “scientists” in question are senior level project managers or entry level staffers.
cheap labour alone is responsible for China being what it is today..what else did you think it had to boast of ? :rolleyes:
21Ankushthe news article that WisePanda was alluding to
India, Israel To Seal New Missile Deal
New Long-Range Version of Barak To Defend Land Forces
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI, NEW DELHI, And BARBARA OPALL-ROME, TEL AVIVIndia and Israel have agreed to expand their already considerable missile development cooperation with an even longer-range version of their extended-range Barak ship defense system, this time for the Indian Air Force.
Sources from both countries say they expect to sign an add-on development contract by early next year, following last month’s conclusion of a memorandum of agreement between Indian defense research authorities and prime contractor Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI).
The new land-based air defense system will feature a range of 150 kilometers, more than double that of the supersonic, vertically launched Barak-8, or BarakNG (New Generation) now being developed for the Indian Navy.
“We’ve agreed to extend our ongoing BarakNG project with a longer-range missile capable of performing additional missions and meeting a larger array of threats,” one Israeli source said in early July, noting that India’s fiscal year ends in March 2008. “We’re all looking to sign a contract by the end of the fiscal year.”
The program, he said, is “a natural extension” of the approximately $480 million, five-year contract concluded in early 2006 between the Indian Defence Research Development Organization (DRDO) and IAI.
Indian Defence Ministry sources said Israeli partners have agreed to transfer all technologies and manufacturing capabilities relevant to the co-development program. They noted that the new land-based air defense system — a planned replacement for the Indian Air Force’s Russian-made Pechora surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) — would provide full hemispheric, 360-degree interception coverage against existing and future threats.
Sources declined to provide projected program costs, but estimated the effort would take about four years and a minimum of $300 million to develop unique system elements and an initial tranche of the land-based missiles.
The Indian Air Force has a requirement for nine advanced air defense squadrons, each of which will feature two SAM units. A typical unit will include an acquisition radar, a guidance radar, a command-and-control center and three launchers with eight missiles apiece.
Yossi Weiss, general manager of IAI’s Systems, Missiles and Space Group, said in mid-May the Barak-8 air defense system under development would be “more capable and more sophisticated” than the U.S.-developed Patriot PAC-3. He declined to discuss details of the firm’s ongoing cooperation with India, and did not offer any information regarding new longer-range versions of the Barak-based system.
India’s top ballistic missile scientist, Vijay Kumar Saraswat, said in December that India was no longer interested in buying the PAC-3, United Press International reported.
Indian defense experts said the new land-based, longer-range Barak system also would benefit the Indian Navy, which is methodically pursuing longer-range capabilities since the 2004 approval of its Blue Water Navy doctrine.
The deal extends arms-manufacturing ties with Israel even as India reaches out to other regional countries such as Iran and Qatar, with which New Delhi recently signed a groundbreaking agreement to codify defense cooperation.
Tactical Defense System
Gurpreet Khurana, a Navy commander and a defense analyst of the Institute of Defence Studies and Analysis (IDSA), a New Delhi think tank, called the long-range Barak a tactical defense system, not a strategic or offensive one.
“A longer-range anti-missile system has become imperative today, with the increased [120-kilometer] range of anti-ship missiles like the Harpoons,” Khurana said. “Besides, the missile platforms have a stand-off firing capability — the P-3C Orion can launch the missile at an Indian Carrier Battle Group, without even entering the air-defense zone. In any case, interception of missiles at longer ranges is necessary, particularly to prevent saturation of air-defense response.”
The latest Barak-based co-development project marks the third phase of Indo-Israeli cooperation based on the air defense system by IAI and Israel’s Rafael Armament Development Authority. The cooperation began in 2001 with a $270 million deal for the basic Barak ship defense system. Mutual satisfaction with system performance and Israeli willingness to engage in technology transfers led in January 2006 to the 70-kilometer-range BarakNG program.
“This has been a phenomenally successful cooperative program, which has served as a springboard to all kinds of other potential projects,” an Israeli industry source said.
He estimated that the three Barak-based missile development efforts combined exceed $1.3 billion.
Indian Defence Ministry sour-ces said scientists from the government’s DRDL missile laboratory in Hyderabad are already working in Israel on the BarakNG program.
In a June 29 conference in Hyderabad, Indian President A.P.J. Abdul Kalam praised the growing cooperation between India and Israel, particularly the cooperation with IAI. His guest of honor at the event, hosted by the Aeronautical and Astronautical Societies of India, was Itzhak Nissan, IAI’s president and chief executive, who has led Barak and other missile and space cooperative development projects with India for more than a decade.
Noting that IAI is partner “on some of the most advanced projects in the world,” Nissan expressed high regard for the scientific and manufacturing capabilities that India contributes to joint development efforts, according to an IAI account of the event, released July 2.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/822774.html
Approximately 40 rental agreements on behalf of a secret delegation of experts from India for exclusive properties in north Tel Aviv and Herzliya Pituah have been signed at record prices over the past month.
Scientists, engineers and senior defense personnel have been seeking properties throughout Gush Dan under a cloud of secrecy. The arrival of members of the delegation and their families for three years was agreed upon in the framework of a pact between the Indian government and a leading Israeli defense firm
21Ankushthank you guys so much for such superb pics ! its been a delightful week seeing the best ever pics of the IAF’s pride and joy with RAF fighters..:)
21AnkushEvery fighter has a gun. 🙂
The gun will certainly be used, its important to fire warning shots.
I dont know however how many rounds of ammo the Austrian AF will get.
well was’nt the RAF interested in deleting the guns on its Typhoons in order to penny pinch and save some money on maintenance ? so its not entirely unheard of that an Air Superiority platform could be envisioned without its gun..a very unwise move though.
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