21AnkushI think I miss the point you are arguing here Ankush. It was stated that Argentina possessing 4 MKI/Su-35 type fighters would be able to wrest air control of the Falkland Islands off 4 Typhoons…is that fair representation?. Now you are stating that if it were 4 MiG-21 Bisons based at Mount Pleasant they’d be able to take on the MKI/Su-35’s as the Argentines do not possess AWACS capability.
Use of AWACS in the most expanded form, as Typhoon’s combat suite has, a powerful onboard radar system and a longer ranged missile than the opposition are match winning assets?. Does it denigrate the Typhoon to say this…in no way. It was designed with the intention of using those assets to tip the scales in its favour. Who wants a fair fight?. If the Argentines, or anyone else for that matter, were to acquire an expensive, advanced, fighter capability without, simultaneously, fielding AWACS I’d doubt their intelligence.
For non-stealth types the advantage, granting both sides parity in developing the air picture, is in managing the merge and gaining the NEZ shot position first. Put simply Typhoon/Meteor provides that – MKI/Meteor may do but when are Su35 or MKI going to be adapted for the weapon?. In my, non-expert, opinion from what I’ve read of the R-77’s performance and the corresponding performance from the later block AIM-120’s I’d still give the edge in this to Typhoon/AIM-120. As a poster I used to read put it ‘better bullets win’ – the aircraft that can carry them carries the fight.
no no Jonesey, what I was first replying to was Jackonicko’s talk of how 4 Typhoons could provide effective air defence to the Falklands against hypothetical Argentinian Su-27s. Also, Jackonicko had talked of how the Typhoon could “outclass” even the best developed Flanker (ie. the MKI/Su-35)
What I was talking of was how if AWACS support was provided to a defending force, then even 4 Bisons with R-77s would be formidable, being radar off, small sized, RAM treated and being vectored towards their targets through a secure DL.
I’m not denigrating the Typhoon, but if the radar is to be looked at then the Bars is nothing to be scoffed at either- its detection ranges coupled with the lack of a LRAAM on both, the opposing MKI and Typhoon would mean that both would be aware of the other when coming into the zone where they could fire their R-77s/AIM-120Cs..that would most likely offset any advantages the Typhoon had in terms of a LO profile..
so, my question, better phrased is- would the Typhoon/Rafale be having better odds against the MKI with their radar turned on, with current AAMs and without AWACS support or, considering that the AWACS support could be available to the opposition as well, with both sides having equally good air picture ? the answer probably is no- not till the Meteor enters service most likely.
21AnkushHmmm ok. Lets ignore the fact that the Typhoons are nose-cold, vectored in out-of-envelope of the MKI’s radar and are sharing targetting data via discrete TDL such that the first indication that the MKI’s have that they are actually under attack is seeker light-up on the inbound AIM-120’s.
I think you need to find a better 4-on-4 scenario to boast about the MKI’s superiority over Typhoon. Oh and you’d better put a timeframe limit on the boast as well as, soon as Meteor is in, MKI’s as much a dead duck as anything else barring an F-22!.
Agreed Jonesey, that if the MKI’s were not AWACS supported, as would probably be the case with hypothetical Argentinian MKI’s, then the MKI’s would be at a disadvantage..that however would even apply if the defenders were MiG-21 Bisons (and Cope India proved that), so that does’nt require an uber-expensive Typhoon- upgraded and RAM coated MiG-21s could do the trick.
however like Rubik said, interchange the MKI’s as being radar-off, with AWACs support (as they could be with IAF Phalcons) and there is nothing to prevent them from shooting off their R-77s first and bagging the Typhoons without AWACS support..just goes to show that the only thing giving major superiority to the Western types is the presence of AWACS.
21AnkushJackonicko, give the Argentinians 4 Su-30MKI’s and 4 Typhoons would struggle to defend the Malvinas, given a 1:1 exchange ratio- that would be most likely if the Argentinian pilots trained well and used their MKI’s wisely..the Typhoon has no advantage in terms of detecting and tracking the MKI earlier than the MKI does it..and although the R-77 is not quite as modern as the newest AMRAAM variants, till the time the Meteor comes in, there is no decisive advantage for the Typhoon here either..in the case of the Rafale, the MICA is even more short ranged, so the MKI would likely take the first shot even if it detected the Rafale a little late..
so I’d like to know just how the Rafale or the Typhoon “outclasses” the best developed Flanker variants. if Argentina were to go in for the Su-35, that would be something more than a handful for the Rafale or the Typhoon..:diablo:
21AnkushNick, the Mica-IR/ER are both sureties for the Mirage-2000 upgrade..although it’ll be interesting to see if the IAF wants the French to integrate the R-77 or Astra to the RDY-2 radar.
21AnkushI’m impressed just how easily you dismiss the “best developed Flankers”- basically the MKI. on what basis are you making the claim that Rafales would ‘outclass’ the MKI ? and if you’re looking at 1:3 exchange ratios, forget it- its not going to happen against the MKI..it’ll be more like 1:1, nevermind what skewed Western agency’s simulations project.
21AnkushThis is a little surprising as I had believed there were Indian/Israeli origin ECM/EW systems in the Su-30s. Does the Su-30s carry and podded ECM/EW equip or is it all carried internally since there should be no lack of space.
This will definitely give an edge to an adversary
they carry the Elta El-8222 in a podded form. and how does this give an edge to the adversary ? the adversary needs to have something more capable to have the edge in the first place. :diablo:
21AnkushPAF lost 11 aircraft in 2006
http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=55214
By our correspondent
Karachi
The Pakistan Air Force (PAF), in recent months, lost two fighter aircraft in the metropolis due to “bird strike”, causing great loss in terms of valuable national equipment. This was said by Air-Vice-Marshal, Rao Qamar Suleman, Air Officer Commanding, Southern Air Command on Wednesday during a briefing on “hazards associated with bird activities in the Karachi area”.
Air-Vice-Marshal Qamar also said that the pilots, luckily managed to divert the aircraft from the populated areas before ejecting safely and the main reason for these crashes was improper management of the waste disposal system in Karachi.
He stated that without the support and sincere efforts of the public, it would be very difficult to curb the bird menace and its associated hazards.
He also requested the public to stop throwing the waste indiscriminately and extend full support to PAF officials in fighting the menace of birds in the vicinity of the runways.
He informed the media that PAF lost 11 aircraft in 2006, a majority of which were Mirage fighter aircraft. He called on the City District Government Karachi to play its due role and the public to help and support the PAF by dumping garbage at the dumping centres, instead of dirtying airfirleds near the airports.
Furthermore, Qamar informed authorities about the dead bodies of animals that are found. The birds come to prey on these dead animals, he said. A documentary on “bird strike” was also shown to the media.
21AnkushIAF Su-30MKI’s use the Elta El-8222 SPJ. there was a pic of one during the Sindex Exercise with Singapore AF. they were not outfitted with them internally though and the integration is done at HAL.
21Ankushthe IAF was apparently looking to replace the Matra Magic-II missiles on its Jaguar fleet with ASRAAM or AIM-9s..could there be a common AAM between the Jaguar and MiG-27 fleets ?
21AnkushJoey, what hypothetical scenario ? the F-16s were locked onto by the Fulcrums and they did decline combat and retreat far from the LoC. the fact is that they were only carrying AIM-9s whereas the Mirages and Fulcrums were both BVR missile equipped.
This is not hypothetical but a fact- the result of combat had it happened would have marred the F-16s record of 71-0 and thats what I was talking about. I’m not talking of the current Blk50-52 jets that PAF will get- rather of the fact that the F-16s record is aided by good situational awareness due to AWACS, and generally having faced off against poorly equipped and trained pilots/aircraft..
so please dont quote combat records as being proof of the F-16s combat ability- there are other jets that can match its current avatars (blk50-60) if they were to recieve the same level of AWACS support and good piloting.
21Ankushthanks Flex !
21AnkushHarry had long ago posted a pic of one of the upgraded MiG-27ML prototypes..had a tricolour on its nose..let me see, my laptop at home will have a pic of the upgraded Bahadur.
21AnkushWow…..even the stupid threads get hijacks by the the Pakistani/Indian arguments.
I hope you all can just sit back and look at your posts and then realize how stupid they sound. The Pakistani/Indian thing has ruined so many threads on this board that I’ve lost count. Stop your stupid bickering. It’s wasting everyone else’s time trying to sort through the garbage that you all put out.
India and Pakistan have not been in an all-out war since 1971…….let’s keep it that way! Shut up!
well first of all this is a stupid thread and one is’nt seeing the most interesting points being discussed here anyway- so no harm spicing it up..:diablo: besides, why bother to post on this thread if the level of discussion is below your intellectual level ? its a free, democratic, multinational board, and the PAF is an F-16 operator, no ? 😉
the F-16 is a good aircraft- its revolutionised the light multi-role fighter concept in a way no other jet (bar the Mirage-2000 probably) has..so IMO, no the F-16 is not a bad fighter and taking it lightly would be perilious to say the least for an opposing pilot..
however, someone boasted of the F-16s 71-0 record, not taking into consideration that most of it is in situations where the F-16 is aided by a host of other factors (AWACS, poorly trained opposition pilots) and in a one-to-one real battle scenario (not an exercise with engagement rules) with equally trained pilots the fight may not be quite so lop-sided. the IAF-PAF scenario is one where one might have gotten to see just such a match up with the Fulcrum or the Mirage-2000 had the F-16s stayed near the LoC during Kargil..and thats the reason I brought it up..
anyway, I wont carry this further.
21Ankushhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu5gzo_wXko
video that has Wing Cmdr P K Singh and Sqn Ldr John of the Tridents squadron talk about the MiG-29s chasing the F-16s back into their territory from close to the LoC.
in Sqn Ldr John’s words ” I hope the next time he comes a little closer”:diablo:
21AnkushGiven that the indian Migs kept on their side of the border and were limited to playing lock-on games says a lot about the deterrence of the F-16 and their reputation.
deterrence of the F-16s ?! 😀 :diablo: ask that to the F-16 pilots who declined combat and turned tail when locked onto by the Fulcrums. they simply watched as the IAF pounded Pak Army’s Northern Light Infantry..besides, what chance did the WVR only F-16A’s of the PAF have against the BVR equipped Mirages and Fulcrums ?
the only reason the IAF did’nt cross the border to chase the fleeing F-16s was because the GoI did’nt want to escalate the battle to a full-fledged war and the IAF was not given permission to give chase.:mad:
Sign In
