trolling around eh Scooter ? the Indian Navy chief debunked the article which is not enough for some, and now you need to latch on to that and troll ? :rolleyes: (thinking hard)

it happens only in India..:D

made in China products dont yet sell well in India.;)

on a serious note, no, the GoI would not even consider this and nor would the IAF. they have’nt purchased anything ever from the Chinese and not likely to happen in the forseeable future either.

First of all, if the IN was sure that CATOBAR was what it wanted from its carriers, they would’nt have gone in for the AG at all, but forced the Govt. to make a decision to build CATOBAR IACs. that would’ve ensured that with Viraat and SHar’s gone, a suitable CATOBAR jet (Rafale M and N-LCA?) would’ve been used on board the IACs..that assumes that the IN was in favour of CATOBAR only- the fact is that the IN could never have been foolish enough to waste time to try lobbying with the civvies to approve construction of the IAC in time- and had it not hecticly lobbied for the AG, there would have been a period of anywhere between 2-5 years when the IN would’ve operated with no Carrier force at all..

and like I said bfore, that is totally against the IN’s philosophy- so if getting a carrier on time meant STOBAR ops only, then so be it- the advantages of STOBAR ( a smaller carrier without the heavy steam catapults and 3 decades of experience with STOBAR ops for the IN) are also there, and its not such a big disadvantage over CATOBAR as to turn the tide..at least not at the cost of not having a Carrier at all.

from an Indian’s perspective, its an absolute miracle that the IN managed to get by without a gaping hole when its Carrier force would’ve been reduced to zero- the Gorshkov managed to plug that. Other than that, just look at the IAC’s history- its replete with a host of delays- mostly thanks to the lack of modernisation of the shipyards and the lack of steel (2 years delay). that would’ve remained whether or not the IN went in for the AG. so someone may claim that the IAC would’ve been operational by now, but thats assuming that everything would go hunky-dory in a project, the magnitude of which the IN had never attempted before..highly unlikely dont u agree ?

I’d rather go with the IN’s “stay safe” philosophy and make the best of what you can get, rather than haggling for another 5-6 odd years with politicians over getting gold-plated equipment that comes too late.

What in gods name do you mean ‘What better option did they have’?. You’ve answered that question yourself – the ADS. You didnt ever need to buy the Gorshkov to induct the MiG-29K into the IN – unless the friendly Russians did an arm-twist routine on you for that one too!.

IF, and its a big IF, the IN were wedded to STOBAR for their aviation requirement there was nothing to stop them designing ADS for the MiG-29 and buying it at a later date. You could have simply extended the lives of your current Sea Harrier force with new airframes the UK were falling over themselves to sell you, bought a cheap new-build CVS/LPH design from any number of European or Asian yards, to replace Viraat as a Harrier-carrier, until the ADS came on line THEN retire Harrier, re-role the Harrier-carrier to ‘Commando Carrier’ or ASW chopper carrier taskings and continue on with the Fulcrum from ADS. Simple.

Even better, seeings as the IN has operated and maintained steam cats before, you spend some of the $1.5 billion saved on Gorshkov and the MiGs buying a license for US steam cat technology, which is rapidly ageing out at home making way for EMCAT, and the rest on Rafale-M’s which the French should just be about ready (desperate!) to sell at a fair price. So when your 40k ton CATOBAR ADS is ready, the Harrier phases out, and IN naval aviation steps up on a par with the French. Like they say on game shows though ‘this is what you could’ve won’!. Shame really.

well, read my post again. I was referring to the MiG-29K Fulcrum and its purchase- which I wrote in response to Victor writing about how the MiG-29K was “forced” down the IN’s throat. you twisted the answer around to a point where it looked like I was questioning what options the IN had for a Carrier..

anyhow, IN’s last experience with CATOBAR was with Alizes and the Vikrant..the IN’s philosophy is clear from the fact that they opted for STOBAR ops for even the new IAC and most likely its follow on ship. besides all that is well and fine from your perspective of just sitting and talking, they faced a whole different uncertain future where they would be without a carrier force itself..
the economics or the logic of the Gorshkov purchase have to be seen from a perspective of an IN in 1997..a time when the US and Indian relationship was far from being anywhere near where they’d even contemplate buying a big ticket item from them. the ADS got approved as a project MUCH later in 1999and till then there was absolutely no surety that the IN would have a carrier force once the Viraat was gone in 2010…so at that time, the Gorshkov was an attractive option considering that it would be in-service before the Viraat retired and would prevent the IN from being without a single carrier force till the time the IAC came into service. had the IN not gone in for the Gorshkov, it would’ve been without a carrier between 2010-15. and that is something that the IN would not allow.

the IAC is the ideal carrier for them- no STOBAR, and not because the technology is only available with the US- its not, the IN could’ve taken British or French help-but what you see on it is what the IN wants-when they fund the N-LCA, its clear that they want it- some posters will point out to the flaws of having a short ranged naval aviation force, but they committed to it when they could well have backed out and refused to fund it- that does’nt happen without a clear objective- had they backed out that would’ve stopped the N-LCA project for sure. so, surely one can pick faults with ANY possible decision made by any Navy..I’m sure the RN is no exception to that.:rolleyes:

the SHar F/A-2s were offered..but like I said in the previous post, they were offered NEUTERED. no Blue Vixen radar and no AMRAAMs. which is the only selling point for the F/A-2 anyway. other than that, whats the point in buying an airframe that has major shortcomings in other areas like payload and range ? obviously the IN rejected the offer after evaluating it. and a wise choice indeed, since the MiG-29K’s will be joining service soon and could operate off both the Viraat and the Vikramaditya.

as for your talk of IN Naval aviation stepping up on par with that of the French, what exact giant strides have the French made till now that makes the IN pale in comparison ? they operate the E-2C which the IN cannot get due to an unreliable supplier, a bomb truck in the Super Etendard (hardly any advantage over the SHar) and a very limited Rafale M (which can overwhelm the SHar till it gets its upgrades, but definitely not the MiG-29K on current specs)..as for the future, the MiG-29K will also get AESA radar when the IN feels its time for it, and it will be multi-role when it joins the IN in 2007 itself, unlike the Rafale M even now. and if the French are so desperate for a Rafale sale, they should do their utmost to get the MRCA contract-thats still wide open.

besides, get off that condescending tone of yours- the IN knows what its getting and for what price. you dont need to act all high and mighty when the RN is lulling around without a fleet protection aircraft as of now- surely a very wise decision.:rolleyes:

For the amount of money and time that this deal is taking from conception to delivery, a Euro SY could have built a purpose designed and built carrier for the IN with ToT for an Indian yard.

At the end of the day, the IN gets a semi capable carrier with Mig-29Ks that were forced down their throat and no transfer of technology to build carriers or its aircraft at home. On top of that, the Russians managed to stall the IAC construction by jacking up the cost of the steel. :rolleyes:

The only way this deal makes sense is if the IN shelled out for this deal as a prerequisite for a more urgent and strategic deal. Only time will tell.

and what better option did they have for an aircraft carrier capable jet ? the SHAR F/A-2 ? with its radar and AMRAAM missiles neutered as was recently offered to the IN ? or the Rafale M that cant take off without catapult and from a ski-jump carrier ? or the F/A-18 that cant either ?

the only other option that the IN could have had was the Su-33 and that again had issues with its size and resulting smallness of the fighter complement on board the Vikramaditya and the future ADS. the MiG-29K is anyday far superior to what the IN currently have and with suitable upgrades (just take a look at the MiG-35) would be a very effective air complement for the IN.

and why would the IN want ToT for an aircraft order of 16 MiG-29K/KUB’s with an option for 30 more ? it would have seemed to make more sense had the IN purchased them all forthright and some more for a second ADS. but with the funding that it had, it was’nt possible and so thats in the future..and the IN has to pay for the N-Tejas’ development/acquistion as well..why waste money on paying for ToT and then building Fulcrums ? they wont gain any technology from that- the MKI project is adequate for that purpose and already HAL has more than enough on its hands.

well why dont u guys just ignore his posts instead of cribbing about it when replies to his posts spur him on ? he’s hardly at fault alone !

no Kaduna2003, i was’nt blaming PDF for posting the article. I was just pointing out that the level of discussions on PDF is laughable. Once again, thats just MHO. Those frequenting that forum are entitled to their own opinion.