On the flip side, they have ideal high speed aerodynamics, (and for a given wing span, a larger wing area meaning lower wing loading.) The canards in turn mitigates the previous advantage held by tail configuration of low speed handling, to the point where Rafale M is, and Sea Gripen is a prospect of, Carrier based.
With the exception of the F-22, F-35 and T-50 most aircraft fight at Mach 0.8 where delta wings offer little agility
The comments below are written by a friend of mine, and he wants to be anonymous. But he knows his stuff, well he has to, it is required in his profession.:)
I am always a little uncomfortable about getting involved in these “which is the better” configuration discussions. The reason is that it is very often a function of the specific design requirements of the aircraft you are designing. Consider this: When Gripen (and many other modern aircraft) was designed, one of the strong candidate configurations was a conventional layout (albeit with a funny location for the engine intake). Now, if teams of aeronautical engineers, some with PhD’s in aerodynamics, decided that it would take some serious study and wind tunnel tests to decide which configuration was better, then maybe the answer isn’t so simple?
The analysis you make although valid, in one way disregards real aspects seen in modern aircraft.
To make a Canard-tailplane analysis most aerodynamists will do it with canards and tailplanes of the same size, with wings of the same size and the same degree of stability.
It happens that each aircraft has different parameters and more important different solutions, let us put two very basic examples.
Gripen Versus MiG-29 and F-16 and the F-22 and T-50 versus the Eurofighter
The MiG-29 and F-16 have LERXes which basicly add a lifting surface ahead of the wing and have the same function of the canard, so the LERX is basicly doing the same thing the Gripen`s canard is doing, reducing the supersonic aerodynamic center of shift movement thus reducing trim drag; in the case of the F-16, it has considerable forebody lift and has relaxed stability thus reducing even more trimming needs.
In the case of the MiG-29 its tailplanes are quit far from the center of gravity and have higher swept than the wing reducing trimming needs further.
Now what are the visible advantages of the Gripen?
well the delta makes for a big wing area with respect the small size it has and up to a degree offsetting thrust needs.
Now since this aircraft are not designed for supercruise the max speed up to a level is not as important, however let us go to its known performance.
The MiG-29 is faster than the Gripen and both the MiG-29 and F-16 have higher STR than the Gripen, the Gripen is smaller and has a higher ITR, this makes the Gripen economical in fuel comsuption and difficult to spot visually but it can not keep sustained maneouvres with both the MiG-29 and F-16 and very likely it won`t out accelerate the MiG-29 

The Eurofighter has with the F-22 other features.
The F-22 due to stealth considerations has its tailplanes and wings with the same leading edge sweep however the F-22 has its tailplanes the farthest from the center of gravity by the fact of being located aft of the nozzles and main body section; the T-50 adds LERXes and considerable forebody lift.
Eurofighter has its canard well ahead of the wing but still below the cockpit further more they are relatively big inducing more drag and reducing the positive effects of canads vortices over the wing besides its canard has less sweep than the wing.
Both the F-22 and Eurofighter have relaxed stability.
Known facts the F-22 has a much higher supercruise ability and a much higher STR and very likely higher ITR
Now ask your self this do you think the americans made the F-22 with tailplanes because it has worse flight characteristics than the Eurofighters with canards at Mach 1.6?
The Eurofighter carrying its weapons in external stores also degrates greatly its stealthiness and performance
ROFL… the only moment the draken banks is to get clear of his wingman flying close formation, besides, if he had poor lateral stability, he woudln’t dare go to such AoA while not perfectly straight up.
The cobra consists of pulling suddenly your aircraft to beyond 90° AoA, slowing down before the nose drops back forward and you reaccelerate, all while maintainint your trajectory pretty much straight
what part of drakens manouver doesn’t fit?
Why you fantasize? The Cobra means the nose at 120 deg of AoA does not tilt, it is kept at 0 deg from the longitudinal axis and flight path at yaw in few words 0 deg at yaw.
You can insist and call it Cobra but it is not, in order to do the cobra the aircraft has to have a pitch angle of 120 deg and 0 deg at yaw.
By stability we mean 0 deg at yaw because most aircraft will have nose slips at 60 or 70 deg of AoA and this leads to departure.
The Drakken is banking and it is not showing a 120 deg at pitch and 0 deg at yaw.
Historically the first pilot to have done it was Victor Pugachev.
TVC makes for great very low speed maneuverability and good performance at very high altitude where air density is much lower. But I’m sure you know as well as I do that TVC can cause you to bleed airspeed at a very high rate if used improperly- and as they say, “Speed is life.”
Delta canard setups like the Eurofighter are good for high speed “shoot and scoot” BVR combat where you are executing a cat and mouse BVR game where you may need to come in firing/radar range of a target and you want fire your missiles, turn very quickly and efficiently at M=1.0+ and light your burners and be gone.
that is more or less in line with the F-22 philosophy but saddly dogfights are still a possibility, so the best is BVR fights but WVR combats always are a possibility.
Yea, right…sorry for such an answer, but I’m not sure what else to answer to that.
F15 had LEVCON, 40 years ago.
Ok it is called differently, but can do the same job, energize body flow.
F15 generates enough lift for a plane to take off, some 30 or so kts before the elevators are able to lift the nose off the ground, due poor effectiveness at low speeds.
Same with Su33 and the plane got canards for carrier ops, to enhance responsiveness at low speeds.
Cobra is what exactly, apart from FCS and spin recovery “accident”?
Useless PS maneuver that will most likely get a pilot killed in anything but 1 on 1 close combat.
PS agility is essentially defensive “last ditch” action and would probably prove fatal in multi-participant air combat and is completely useless in avoiding missiles.
SC is mainly an engine property and F104 with F119 would SC at M2.9 😀
No advanced aerodynamics in F22, except if you put F22 into stealth category, in which case I agree it’s more advanced than F117.
AFTI is a great plane and it’s strange it never reached front line, in spite of immense advantages it offered in terms of nose pointability, useful for AG deliver, which F16 mainly does today.
F15 ACTIVE (SMTD) is something else and canards were added to counter TV, but the plane was otherwise still a regular F15.Now, you can see how all those “advantages”, “5th gen must have” and similar, out of context, assertions are mainly pointless arguments.
You’ve pointed ancestry well, so why are you surprised if F22 and T50 are conservative in aerodynamic terms?
Neither F15, not Su35 are canard designed fighters, which is obvious and canards on those models have been installed for exploration/testing/special purposes.
Both F22 and T50 got TV to mitigate poor elevator effectiveness, but that doesn’t make them aerodynamically advanced, rather still in the ’70s with added LO features to the airframe.
Show me please the picture of the F-15 with LEVCONs i know the aircraft but up to know i have never seen it with a LEVCON
This is an off-topic reply because F-16 is a tailed all-moving elevator a/c whereas Mirage 2000 is a no all-moving surfaced a/c.
First with canards, Mirage-cheetah or Mirage 50’s turn rate and climb rate are better than its without canards, so this already refuted your opinion of which canards are useless.
Second, you repeatedly violated the same condition principle.
Thirdly, MiG-21 would be a more pure interceptor than MiG-23. Objectively, MiG-23 was between MiG-21 and MiG-19 as a reverter having 2Mach speed without loosing capability of dogfight MiG-19 owned.Cobra just is a banking recovery due to lack of efficient lateral stability.
This is a double standard judgment.
To compare two objects you must put them en same condition.If F-5 was an a/c with fixed tail I would admit Kfit lost.
The Eurofighter might be superior to the F-22 at Mach 1.6 at 36000 ft in ITR, it is possible, but well the MiG-23MLD it is said to be superior to the F-16A at very high speeds and altitudes, now does it mean the MiG-23MLD will be superior at all speeds?
You are making a very big assertion, which by the way is not proven by mock combat, the F-22 was not shot down by any Rafale or Eurofighter in mock combat.
The second point is why justify a tailess? or Justify the Kfir unability to beat the MiG-23 or F-5?
what makes a fighter better than other is just having a better lift and thrust yield in its kinematics.
If Rafale beats the F-15 but not the F-22 is simply a result of better lift and thrust yield with the F-15 and a worse lift and thrust yield with the F-22.
The end result is important, how much lift and thrust the aircraft has available while turning, not if it has canards or tailplanes.
You can have a tailess like the Mirage 2000 beating a AJ-37 Viggen, MiG-23 or MiG-21 but at the same not beating a MiG-29 or a Rafale beating an F-16 and LCA but not beating a F-22 or even more the Kfir not beating the MiG-23 but beating the F-104 and Lighting.
ALL aircraft are compromised and optimized to some flight envelop.
Do i believe the MiG-1.44 could had not beaten the F-22? no i do not it is possible the MiG-1.44 was better than the F-22 but stealth counts a lot these days and the Russians saw you need it, so they scrap it and built the tailed T-50.
The Mirage 2000 is more or less even with the F-16 but in reality is not an aircraft that will beat the F-16 at long sustained maneouvres, it is not the fight it is good for it.
Saddly for deltas they bleed energy fast at low speeds and it is proven by the differences in their ITR and STRs, now does the Gripen have chances of beating the F-16 or MiG-29? yes it does but is not like many here imaging just a one side victory, if other countries continue buying F-16s and MiG-29 even when they are also offered Gripens shows well that.
And this is just another example of how hopelessly out of your depth you are when you try to analyze anything to do with China since you clearly haven’t a clue.
There are brand new superhighways that lead to nowhere all over China. Its more a symptom of centralized planning madness where budgets and performance measures are set centrally and local governments try to spend their budget/meet targets with little regard for market need. Sometimes it can also be because of the scale of Chinese projects. The pearl river delta was just paddy fields 2 decades ago. Entire cities have appeared out of nowhere in a matter of years. A road may lead to nowhere today because someone wants to build a city in that nowhere and to do that, you first need a road.
Ah yes, more mindless extreme right BS logic.
If the US stopped trade with China, China would suffer greatly, millions would loose their jobs and economic growth would collapse and China will probably slip into a deep recession. But at least everyone will still be clothed and fed and entertained.
Go to any store in the US and see just how much of the goods are made in China and imagine would it would be like if they were all gone.
If American stopped trading with China, the American way of life as you know it would change drastically to the point where you would be hard pressed to recognize it. Well maybe not you since you sound like someone who lives in the hills alone, hates the cities and loves your guns far more then is healthy to. But for everyone else, things will change for the worse.
China and America has a co-dependence relationship. Look it up in a dictionary if necessary.
More brainless foaming at the mouth.
If you knew anyone about the banking sector, you would realise just how stupid that statement is.
The worlds largest banks (by any measure) are Chinese and they have some of the biggest cash reserves in the world and they have weathered the current economic storm far better their the vast majority of western banks.
if the chinese stop selling to the US yeah mexico will take over and later Brazil.
In fact most people in mexico will be delighted if china stops trading with the US. it is a bigger slice for the Mexican manufactures and exporters by the way Chinese exports to the US are not very different to amount of mexican exports to the US around 2/3s of the chinese amount.
In few words no one is so irreplaceable. If China stops selling to the US, India and Mexico will replace it.
For China a war with Taiwan has the same risks economically that will have for the US.
For China a war with Taiwan economically speaking means less work for its always growing labour needs, the west has enough clout still to prevent a war that is the reason no need to rush to sell weapons to Taiwan.
It hurts more if no one buys your goods
The F-22 is the most advanced western aircraft and perhaps still in the world, the most advanced aircraft in aerodynamics still are Russian and American, the LEVCON was introduced by a Russian aircraft, the triplane configuration on a fighter jet also russian on the Su-33, supercruise was brought by the F-22, the Cobra by the Su-27.
No post stall agility means no fifth generation.
Were are not even mentioning the F-16AFTI and F-15 ACTIVE.
The F-22 has F-15 ACTIVE ancestry; the T-50, Su-35 ancestry, both designs deleted canards explain why?
Simply you do not need them.
Chinese Military Won’t Accept ‘Made In China’ Fighters
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1581546&postcount=524
BEIJING (Kyodo) — China’s Air Force has refused to accept 16 J-11B fighters manufactured by a domestic aircraft maker due to technical problems, the Kanwa Defense Review magazine said in its June issue, quoting a Western intelligence source in Beijing.
China is believed to have developed the new fighter based on technology from the Russian fighter Sukhoi Su-27, sparking speculation that the maker, Shenyang Aircraft Corp., may have failed to employ Russian technology accurately.
Shenyang Aircraft, based in Liaoning Province, manufactured 16 J-11B fighters in 2009.
“When the Air Force was checking them up for delivery, J-11B had abnormal vibration after taking off,” the magazine quoted the source as saying. “As a result, the Air Force refused to accept the aircraft.”
A Chinese military source said the J-11B was not chosen for exhibition at the National Day military parade in October last year due to doubts over technical feature of the fighter, according to the magazine.
i guess these are good news for Sukhoi
an old saab draken double delta can do cobras… without taleplanes..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqiDEcfSnXsAtt extremly high AoA canards are extremely effective….
as i know, Gripen has done 100 deg in tests without limits.
That is not a cobra. is a banking recovery due to lack of efficient lateral stability
Kiwi, the Cp moves whether you want it or not. 🙂
It’s a lift product of the entire wing, expressed as a vector and it “moves” according to current alpha and position of the AC and cambering.
Flight is a dynamic process in terms of Cp/CG relative positions and it permanently changes the value.
This is why, non-FCS steered planes have trimming buttons on the flystick to offset permanent Cp/CG relation change.
It’s difficult to discuss any aerodynamic effectiveness (not efficiency) during PS (Cobra) maneuvers, since both canards and elevators are stalled and the only true control is TV (preferably 3D).LEVCON in T50 isn’t a LERX and most probably has a function of energizing body’s boundary flow, thus adding lift, when wings stall.
F16 and F18 don’t use LERX for lift but to similarly energize tail section, rudder and elevators and therefore maintain a degree of roll/directional authority, one wings stall and ailerons cease to function.
The Cobra is done by a regular Su-27 without thrust vectoring.
Canard deflections will affect further more the wing regarless of AoA.
The Su-35S, Su-33, Su-30MKI, Su-34, Su-37 and S-37 all have tailplanes.
the F-22 does the same post stall maneouvres the Su-37 did but it lacks canards.
Canards are over valued, definitively are good and the Rafale, J-10 or Gripen are good designs but the reality is all configurations have pros and cons and canards might have advantages depending in the needs of the aircraft but tailplanes can get similar results with some aerodynamic configurations.
Ah but a detail you fail to analize, moving the CP or aerodyanmic center is not always beneficial, you either can create excessive pitch up stalling the wing and canards are to stall first limiting AoA, the Su-27 and F-22 can do the Cobra simply because their tailplanes are more efficient at high AoA and due to hysteresis that creates a down force, you do not need canards to do the cobra and most post stall maneouvres the F-22 does not use them and the SU-27 does not use them for the Cobra, in fact canards are less effective at really high AoA that is the reason the Su-37 and Su-35S still have tailplanes even having canards.
T-50 has already delete them and uses LEVCONs a much smart proposition than draggy canards
no?!
if the center of gravity is in the rear part of the wings it has a bigger moment arm to close coupled canard(or any form of canard). that is a fact.
if it was a stable platform it would have been the other way around
those are more myths and a fairy tales, excessively tail heavy aircraft pay with drag, the F-22 has its moment arm the farthest from the fuselage independently of weight, it is unstable no doubt but its light tailplanes are the farthest tip of the aircraft`s length.
excessive pitch up in a canard configuration makes for more trim, with or without canards you need a balance
What does “fulcrum” in this context exactly mean?
Irrelevant.
What matters is current distance between Cp of the wing and Cp of the canard/elevator.
In most cases canard wins and even more during maneuver, when Cp shifts rearward, towards the elevator.
It’s only when the Cp is in the AC of the wing, that the momentum arm is the smallest (needs largest trimming force) for canard configuration, but the wing has the best drag/lift characteristic, at that point and so very efficiently mitigates total drag, which is very useful during sustained maneuvering.Correct me, if I’m wrong, but I’m not sure whether you know, why planes have LERX.
You’re mixing some things here, hence my conclusion, but I could be wrong…
i am not wrong you are wrong, the center of gravity is where an aircraft is balanced longitudinally, that is the reason it is called center of gravity.
the canard configuration suffers less at supersonic speeds relativelly just because of additional lif ahead of the center of gravity, so any movement of the aerodynamic center will be balaced by the canard or LERX.
But a tail heavy aircraft also has to be balanced in the same way a nose heavy aircraft by trimming.
Think about that, that is the reason the Viggen is stable.
in an unstable design with or without canards you can not make the aircraft excessively tail heavy or you will pay with drag trim
It is unstable and its tailplanes are the farthest things form the center of gravity unlike a canard on a Rafale, Eurofighter, J-10 or Gripen which need to be closer to the wing and closer to the center of gravity.
here we talk about distance not about weight.