And now you even have the audacity to generalize the whole thing into such a ridiculous sweeping statement? Come on, which countries do not have IP issues? On the rate the Chinese economy is growing, the size of it (especially in terms of PPP, probably as large as the U.S. already) and the fact that it’s a developing economy with many small upstart businesses or larger ones, there are bound to be more IP issues than when you compare her to smaller countries like Mexico and even India (smaller economically and also different industries like service based ones).

In the end who is really benefiting from this, the big international corporations, of course, which explain their big presence in China despite of all your protestations on their behalf.

all nations have such issues but you have to consider that there are ways to solve them, China is simply closing the cooperation with Russia in the aviation field, gaining a bad reputation and losing potential investement.

Why do you think the US did not sell technology for the J-8II modernization in the 1980s? simply because they know the potential danger it has selling technology to a potential rival and enemy.
why do you think the US said to Israel stop selling them AWACs technology and Israel kept secret the IAI lavi deal with China?

Russia was in very need of cash in 1996, now in 2010 they know they have to create more markets and do not depend upon the Chinese market, they have learnt not to trust China in military aviation and the Su-33 deal shows that, and the russians have a very good way of thinking, China swindled them they know they can do little in that respect, but their philosophy is we will make better products that the Chinese copycats.
But who loses at the end is China as investement in high tech will be limited to what the international corporations think are not in danger of being damaged by Chinese copycats.

Am I denying it, nope?! Just saying move on. And stop bringing Mexico into everything. Start another thread about Mexico civilian and military projects.

I will say what i know, Mexico is my country, and the experience i have first hand, and even if you do not like it in aviation there is competition China has competition from India, Mexico, Brazil and any destination of aerospace related investment, if the Chinese want to continue with those practices it is okay with us in Mexico, every time they do it their image worses internationally and for us it helps us to get more investment with the condition we do respect of course the intelectual property rights of those companies investing in Mexico; India has a better job experience with Sukhoi, and Mexico attracted 150 aerospace companies in 3 years, the J-11B and J-15 are example that even Pogosyan said are wrong ways to make a copy.
So important is that for us that we are going to start making and designing low pressure turbines for Boeing and Airbus in partnership with ITP and Rolls Royce, but if we try to mess it by doing what China did to Sukhoi we will lose the investment and trust many companies have in our country

My opinion is right. if China wants more investment they need a better Intelectual property protection policy and the Su-27/J-11B does not show they are willing to do it.

Russian aerospace authorities have confirmed what has been speculated upon publicly for years that China had produced its own “fake” version of the Su-27SK fighter jet in violation of intellectual property agreements.

“We are in discussions with China on this issue,” said Mikhail Pogosyan, first vice president on programme coordination, Russian Aircraft Corp., during a press conference here at the AeroIndia 2009
trade show.

Pogosyan is also director general of the Sukhoi design bureau.
http://www.zimbio.com/Fighter+aircraft/articles/102/Chinese+J+11B+copy+Su+27SK+say+Russian+officials
BANGALORE, India –After years of denial, a Russian defense official conceded that China had produced its own “fake” version of the Su-27SK fighter jet in violation of intellectual property agreements.

“We are in discussions with China on this issue,” said Mikhail Pogosyan, first vice president on program coordination, Russian Aircraft Corp., during a press conference here at the Aero India trade show
In 1995, China secured a production license to build 200 Su-27SKs, dubbed J-11A, for $2.5 billion for the Shenyang Aircraft Corp. The deal required the aircraft to be outfitted with Russian avionics, radars and engines. Russia cancelled the arrangement at 95 aircraft in 2006 after it discovered that China was developing an indigenous version, J-11B, with Chinese avionics and systems.
China produced six J-11B fighters for testing, but despite efforts to produce a suitable replacement for the Russian engine, the new fighter was outfitted with the same AL-31F, said Andrei Chang, a China military specialist at the Kanwa Defense Center. One J-11A was outfitted with the indigenously-built WS10A Tai Hang turbofan engine, but the J-11Bs are still using Russian AL-31Fs due to technical difficulties, Chang said.

Pogosyan and Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov traveled to Beijing in December to attend the 13th session of a Chinese-Russian joint commission on military and technical cooperation and apply pressure to Chinese officials. Ultimately, China agreed to protect intellectual property rights and stop illegally copying Russian military equipment.

“I think this was a big step to make this issue more transparent and more precise in our future discussions,” said Pogosyan, who also serves as the general director of Sukhoi.

Russia fears that China would mass-produce cheaper export versions of the Su-27 for the international market, and China feared that Russia would cancel future orders for advanced arms, such as the Su-33 combat jet for China’s aircraft carrier program, Chang said. Chinese violations of the end-user agreement would be particularly upsetting to Russia’s long-time strategic partner India, if Pakistan buys the Chinese-built Su-27 version.

However, Pogosyan downplayed the quality of the Chinese effort, saying a copy of a copy would not be a good aircraft.

“If we speak about the copy of the airplanes, I think that in this case, the original will always be better than a slightly modified copy,” he said. “The original made by the designer who developed the product is always better, and it is a better start for a new program with the original designer and developer than making a fake copy.”

He said buying copies makes it difficult to overcome problems occurring during the lifetime of the aircraft, while the original developer knows from experience how to deal with these issues.

Chang does not believe China will honor the intellectual property agreement, or any agreement with Russia, and will continue to develop the J-11B as a totally indigenous aircraft. However, China will move cautiously until it secures deals for the Su-33 carrier-based fighter. China is beginning to build its first aircraft carrier and needs Russian technology and experience, Chang said.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3947599

Kiwinopal, it’s getting tired reading your posts which are just recycled content of the same old story for too many times. I see you are just bent on believing your version of the stories but do you realize that there are a number of posters here who in turn believe in their version of the stories? So, let’s leave it at that.

I can leave it like that just for the sake of not talking a topic but i am not the Russian media and even on the month of June 2010 they still continue publishing China broke the deal and Sukhoi or the Russian government is not denying that or asking them stop libeling China`s reputation, if you do not like what the Russian media says i can not stop RT and Novosti from doing that and not even the Russian governement is doing that in behalf of China.
RT and RIA Novosti are allowed by Sukhoi, the Russian defence industry and the Russian government to say what are they saying.

Sorry for the late back-in-game here !

First of all, You both are correct. Yes, I simply found a “funny” – because it is completely nonsense or BS to assume it to be true – and posted it here. Also Yes, since the whole article is IMO not the best researched and we all know the quite “strange” reports about the J-10 from Russia, which are not the most reliable and mot correct ones. That’s all.

But what the hell has thius to do with the J-15 ??? … and where did I say China is allowed to “copy” the Flanker ?
I think “tphuang” gave quite a good summary on the Flanker-issue: China paid for the licence, which was planed to be 100% at a later date. Why should China still retain dated avionics or other systems, if bettere ones are avialable. They already paid for each Flanker untill the 200th aiurcraft.

I agree with You … with no. 201 the situation will be different and it is another story now with the J-15.

And besides that: For sure the Russian media doesn’t know anything about the real content of that contract. All they know – and that’s the same as we all others know too – is what’s written in different mags, reports or so … and over the years, each side tried to build up its own beloved story or version … and here we go again back to Airfleet. AIrfleet is nothing more than one of these magazines … but for sure not the most reliable one.

I think You have a problem with each report, post or statement, which doesn’t hail to the Russian aviation … .

Deino

PS: maybe You take a look at “haavarla’s” paost from Combat Aircraft !

Deino

Any manufacturer will always demand some rights, Sukhoi demanded something logic, China was granted the rights to build the aircraft but they should had russian components and could only build certain numbers.

All of this you are talking is non sense, why China builds J-11Bs when they said we do not want more J-11s from Russia, from the moment they said we do not want more Su-27s means they can not build any more.

However they are doing it, you and most posters who say No one knows the terms of such contact are just saying non sense, you are defending a wrong practice, something wrong.

India shows an excellent way of doing the Su-30MKI license, they renegociated the agreement with Sukhoi they even say as a MLU the Su-30MKI will recieve new russian equipment.

When you buy something you pay and you get the good, you stop paying you can not get the good, the only reason you say the Russian media does not know is simply to avoid you the reality that China is doing something wrong and allow you to deny the reality.

The Russian media knows the contract terms because the Russian defence industry is the one complaigning.

They know more than me and you simply because they interview the people working in the russian defence industry and Sukhoi.
Also i can tell you because in Mexico we are building now aircraft and jet engine parts, but at no moment we are allowed to do things that might harm the manufacturer, Sukhoi is being damaged if China builds Su-27 without their authorization.

The Su-33 has different prototypes and Ukraine sold one, this prototype that China bought very likely has older technology than later Su-33s have and did no solve problems, solved on later Su-33s, that is the reason the Russians are saying it will be hard for China to solve them too quickly.

The airfleet magazine never said the F-22 was positively shot down by a J-10, they only asked the question is it possible it might had happened? and they answered it saying it is very unlikely it ever happened and it belongs to the realm of fake reports.

Irrelevent! That document posted was from a Russian. So what how many videos you posts say otheriwse. I can show a video of many people here’s heroine Michelle Bachman blaming the world financial crisis today on minorities who defaulted on their home loans. So what! Just like I pointed out that absudity that all UFOs are secret black project aircraft from India. You were just trying to cover up something embarrassing that a Russian wrote and blame it on the Chinese. Just because you can show some youtube videos, doesn’t negate that a Russian wrote that document. I must be criminal for not helping perpetuate other people’s lies. Love that freedom that people hide behind in here yet complain when others they don’t like exercise it.

You are wrong the russians never wrote the gossips are true, they said and quoted the gossips, and at the end they say are fake since the F-22 is superior to the J-10, but Deino tried to imply the Russians are unreliable but he was slandering airfleet since airfleet never gave it too much or any veracity to them, in fact they made a fair analysis saying the J-10 is in the Eurofighter and Su-30MKI class but not in the F-22 class.

They only tried to answer a question and that was, is it true that a J-10 shot down an F-22? they are simply saying that is highly unlikely since the odds of that happening are so low that at the end they say most likely the repots are fake.

At no moment are endorsing or saying that was true as was implied by Deino.

That’s really funny – and new to me – … but to admit, ome years ago I had a subscription of AIRFleet … and thought it was a quite reliable magazine !

Dumb Deino … :diablo:

that is not new to you because you follow chinese internet sources and you know as the magazine claims that information came from Chinese internet sources since were the only ones claiming it, what you do not like about the magazine is they are saying as those internet claims appeared the aerospace circles started to get interested in the J-10 capabilities and basicly they say J-10 is a clone of the IAI lavi with similar performance in which the Russians have participated knowing the Israeli participation.
Russia offered a canard delta fighter in competion with Lavi by Sukhoi but as the USSR collapsed so the project i attached the picture of the S-37 mentioned in the article not to be confused with the Berkut

Saying the J-10 is more or less on par with the Eurofighter and Su-30MKI in turn performance but still inferior to Rafale and F-22 which is basicly a very logic result.
They say the F-16 and F-2 are inferior in turn performance which again is true just looking at the ITR of the Gripen and knowing the J-10 has a better TWR you can guess it will be like that.

They even say internet fakes because the F-22 is vastly superior to the J-10 so pretty much the magazine has reliable information what you should do next time is read the whole article instead of claiming ill willed and false accusations which basicly is slander in order to say the J-15 claim is not based upon an Ukranian Su-33 and Russia is not complaigning about the J-11B

Awesome pic!!! Found it while googling…:D:D

To be honest i do not like tha view a lot, it looks a bit old, i like more the same view on the MiG-29SMT

any way the Fulcrum is one of my favorite aircraft of all time, so i am too a Fulcrum-aholic:D
here are a few nices videos i like where you can see the MiG-29SMT
i think this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2UDHA3__6M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXwdarZJBkY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnHqhxUkOdE&feature=related