BelforteMonty was upset with me that I made that comment. Shortly thereafter I was banned from Aviation mystery. So TIGHAR is not the only investigative group not receptive to different ideas.
You were given open invitation to present your Orona hypothesis as has anyone with a different theory on AM. You were not banned for a different idea. I take acception being compared to TIGHAR.
Doc Bob
aviationmystery.com
BelforteSo that is where that crass Maid Of Harlech name came from
Actually not. The people of the Kingdom of Gwynedd in Harlech coined the name Maid of Harlech. Gillespie claimed it as if he had named it.
BelforteSo who is the UK TIGHAR member?
Matt Rimmer and Robert Elliott are both listed as members of TIGHAR. Last seen there on November 13, 2015. Neither one has had their comments responded to by management.
BelforteI have been in contact with Matt Rimmer and am pleased with the opportunity to work with him as needed to preserve and display the Maid , including a personal visit to meet him at some point. As I said, since my retirement July 1st I can devote more time to this project. Many folks in the UK are deeply interested in this project and in fact, I was contacted by The Cambrian News this past week and they pounced on the opportunity to publish an article on the Maid, which appeared Thursday. We wanted to keep the Maid in the public eye an also be positive about it. TIGHAR did a magnificent job on the survey. Now we want to build on that.
http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,1381.msg29122.html#msg29122
This was Robert Elliott’s last post on the TIGHAR forum November 16, 2013. ‘The Director’ never responded to Mr. Elliott after that comment. Draw your own conclusions.
BelforteIndeed how much they have raised and give that amount to any viable group who actually does something.
Paul, certainly you jest, that would cut into the excessive 200K+ salary the ‘Director’ takes from the ‘non profit charity’. As they say, “charity begins at home”.
I think they should say how much they raised in $100 donations off the back of this paper exercise
According to the IRS 990 filings, in 2010 and 2011, $0.00 and nothing reported in 2012, 2013 or 2014. Appears that most funding went into the ‘Earhart Project’ and some ‘To Save a Devastator’ for what reason nobody knows. They won’t be going after those TBD’s in Jaluit Lagoon.
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BelforteWhy did Mr. Rimmer get involved with Tiger in the first place? Ignorance of how credible they are?
Matt Rimmer and Robert Elliot have not been involved with TIGHAR since November 2013. They have found that the ‘Paper TIGHAR’ isn’t what she used to be or ever was for that matter. The P-38 on Harlech Beach is far beyond TIGHAR’s capability, both financially and mechanically. Name one plane that TIGHAR has ever found much less preserved in 30 years. There ain’t no beef on their bones. All talk and no show.
It seems one of Rimmer’s last posts on TIGHAR was his swan song there.
Though this is a rather controversial statement to make, the history of historic aircraft recovery is littered with the wreckage of best intentions, recoveries carried out without better planning or enough funding for the long term care and preservation of the subject aircraft, the best known of these being the B-29 “Key Bird” but there are many others. I for one do not wish to see The Maid as a broken pile of wreckage on the beach, or a rapidly corroding hulk in some yard, or being hacked apart piecemeal for want of more time.
http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,1381.msg29112.html#msg29112
BelforteSeen at WIX this morning.
Call it a Day
The way in which the exercise in Wichita was done is the antithesis of how something IS NOT done in a scientific/mechanical way. It is patently obvious the exercise was bent on proving the artifact and nothing else. Any fool could fashion the stringers on that aircraft frame to match the patch. The trick would be to match the patch to the a/c frame and that was not done, admittedly by Mr. Gillespie himself.
It is only an assumption based on the rivet lines of the artifact, that the extra stringers were the way the patch was applied. Those are fancy drawn renderings in the bulletin but there is NO WAY anyone could know that was the way it was done. The grainy pictures of the patch DO NOT prove that the rivet lines were exactly the same as the artifact. And that is A FACT.
So where are they now? Exactly the same place they were before the New England and Wichita exercises and not deserving of a news release that another could be, maybe, might have been etc, was rendered once again. But, in the words of Mr. Gillespie, “Deciphering those clues will be the next phase in TIGHAR’s analysis of this complex and fascinating artifact.” Then in other words, TIGHAR is no further ahead today than they were when they returned 20 years ago with this artifact. Apparently, there wasn’t enough interest in it until a member of the forum suggested that they look at the artifact as the patch for the Electra not all that many months ago.
Now they have spent considerable time and money for no other reason than to justify another trip to Nikumaroro, which requires a significant amount of money and more time. It seems that after over seven million dollars and 26 years, is it about time for TIGHAR to call it a day?
The only ones that are at peace here is Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan for no one has identified their watery or earthly grave to paw through, looking for their disintegrated bones and Amelia’s beloved Electra. May they truly Rest in Peace, wherever they are. Yes, I’d say, it is about time, TIGHAR, Called it a Day!
BelforteWell it seems that TIGHAR Ric came up a bit short for funding the Niku VIII project. ‘We can find Amelia Earhart’ .004% of goal.
Seems now that he is hanging his pith helmet on that scrap of aluminum recovered on Nikumaroro and I quote, “Now one of our artifacts, 2-2-V-1, appears to be poised to be the smoking gun everyone has been demanding. It will not, however, be the Any Idiot Artifact we’ve longed for.”
Huh??
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BelforteModerated!!! Completely banned more like. One must try and rise above it. :angel: :highly_amused:
Better yet, wear it as a badge of honour! 😎
BelforteNothing wrong with the forum – there are lots of contributors, and lots of different views on things. The long discussion of the Myanmar Spitfire fiasco was just a long discussion that’s all and conducted for the most part politely and also with whimsicality at times. If people are going to take differences of opinion personally then perhaps they shouldn’t involve themselves in discussions in the first place.
Malcolm,
My once dear friend from Down Under in Melbourne. Need I remind you, though you believe that there is nothing wrong with this forum, the same thing you rail against (“If people are going to take differences of opinion personally then perhaps they shouldn’t involve themselves in discussions in the first place.”) got you moderated on the TIGHAR forum.
Malcolm, you know that I respect you highly in your given profession, unfortunately you can be rather high minded and are off putting to many. You know as well as I do that Dan above is exactly right. There are things wrong with this forum however, I will take that to management and not air my laundry on the open forum.
Belforte“Though this is a rather controversial statement to make, the history of historic aircraft recovery is littered with the wreckage of best intentions, recoveries carried out without better planning or enough funding for the long term care and preservation of the subject aircraft, the best known of these being the B-29 “Key Bird” but there are many others. I for one do not wish to see The Maid as a broken pile of wreckage on the beach, or a rapidly corroding hulk in some yard, or being hacked apart piecemeal for want of more time.
One comment I would make concerning the point Jeff raised about the publics desire to see a recovered aircraft verses a restored example, last month I visited the Dornier at RAFM Cosford and even on a damp October day the one aircraft at the museum which drew a small crowd during the entire time I was there was the Dornier, people are fascinated by something which has survived untouched for over 70 years and which bears not only the scares of war but details like the original paint overspray, and the controls still in the position they were left by it’s last pilot, these things speak to many people and bring home far more the human side of war than a shiny restored aircraft could ever do.” (Matt Rimmer)
See the full post by Matt Rimmer in this link: http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,1381.msg29112.htm
Captain Elliott said: “My only hope is that the wreckage is pulled up and taken to a museum to be put on display. “I’ve been waiting for six years for this to happen and I really don’t want to wait another six.”
Captain Robert ‘Bob’ Elliott has been in contact with Matt Rimmer concerning the recovery in spite of Tighar’s claims. Anyone interested in pursuing this recovery is welcome to contact me via PM. I have spoken with Captain Elliott numerous times and could forward his email and phone number, with his permission of course.
BelfortePost No.64, I think, may illustrate the large gap in understanding what is required here. Captain Elliott says: “My only hope is that the wreckage is pulled up and taken to a museum to be put on display”. That’s the cheap and easy (and newsworthy) bit, it’s the part in the middle, the conservation and its funding, which is the problem.
Anon.
Anon, I think you over state that it would be ‘cheap and easy’ to recover the Maid. She isn’t sitting on the bottom of the ocean somewhere, where divers can get to her to bring her up like the Dornier. Have you ever dug a hole in the sand on the beach? It fills back up with water before you get your shovel out. In order to get her out from under tons of wet sand is going to be a major and costly undertaking. I am not aware of any that have been recovered in this manner, maybe there has been.
We know how to preserve aircraft raised from salt water and frankly the expense is in time and space, not money. One would think that it is rather magnanimous of Captain Elliott to want the plane to reside in a UK Museum since there are no P-38 Lightnings on display in the UK that I can find.
Unrealistic expectation, ignorance of the work required and sentiment is clouding the vision of reality. An all too familiar story.
You are entitled to that opinion, but please don’t paint everyone with the same brush. Without being confrontational Anon, how many aircraft have you recovered or participated in preserving?
Worst case scenario after careful analysis they leave it in the sand. Best case scenario is, it can be recovered with proper funding, expertise, preserved and displayed in the UK. That doesn’t seem too unrealistic to me.
BelforteWhat money?
Mike E.,
What you may be painfully not aware of is that TIGHAR is in dire straights financially. It took over a year for two of the Board of Directors to donate the 400K deficit from Niku VII to retire the debt to the University of Hawaii. If you read the forum, they are embroiled in a fight for their financial life in the lawsuit by Timothy Mellon, the major donor for Niku VII to the tune of 1 million. The cost of the lawsuit isn’t covered and if you read their FaceBook page, Gillespie is selling off his collection of Aviation Magazines which will only draw a mere $2500.00 and they are short on paying the lawyers by over that amount.
IMO, the Maid of Harlech is a dead issue for them as is the Devastator project.
Robert Elliott and Matt Rimmer are the only chance IMO to raise the Maid at this point, should they be able to generate enough interest to fund the project. Daunting to say the least. Gillespie says the Maid is in good shape with little corrosion. I disagree, as we have only seen pictures of the P-38 from 2007 or 8 from the TIGHAR kite images, and frankly she didn’t look that great. What must she look like now 5 or six years later?
Raising the Maid won’t be like the Dornier and don’t kid yourselves in believing otherwise. They, IMO, will be lucky to get her out of the sand in any recognizable condition. Yes, they will preserve it and display what they can, which is all I believe Captain Elliott wishes for his uncle’s plane.
Enough of TIGHAR’s promises for things to come, which seems to be their mantra concerning their major projects. After 30 plus years of ‘not recovering’ nor, to say the least ‘preserving’ one single aircraft, one would think that the ‘Dream’ of TIGHAR has become nothing more than a nightmare.
BelforteUpdate: Captain Robert Elliott revisits raising the Maid of Harlech
“I have been in contact with Matt Rimmer and am pleased with the opportunity to work with him as needed to preserve and display the Maid , including a personal visit to meet him at some point. As I said, since my retirement July 1st I can devote more time to this project. Many folks in the UK are deeply interested in this project and in fact, I was contacted by The Cambrian News this past week and they pounced on the opportunity to publish an article on the Maid, which appeared Thursday. We wanted to keep the Maid in the public eye an also be positive about it. TIGHAR did a magnificent job on the survey. Now we want to build on that.”
http://tighar.org/smf/index.php/topic,1381.msg29122.htm
Captain Elliott said: “My only hope is that the wreckage is pulled up and taken to a museum to be put on display. “I’ve been waiting for six years for this to happen and I really don’t want to wait another six.”
BelforteI think there was a very old thread about this where a chap called Laurie Rimmer (his name has cropped up before, as I recall!) was said to be the Welsh representative of TIGHAR. If my recall is correct he said he would report back with further news but then went silent.
If he reads this it would be interesting to have his TIGHAR update!
Sorry, my last post was a reply to Tangmere1940 from three years ago. First time I’ve seen Rimmer on TIGHAR.
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