Unfair? Dry your eyes, Princess.

What is ridiculous is the French characterisation of Typhoon as austere and obsolescent, and of Rafale as being some kind of fully formed and fully capable all round masterpiece.

Libya proved that to be true. Swiss evaluation proved that to be true. Afghanistan proved that to be true. Rafale is proving everyday that is the actual truth. So unless you can provide “evidence” of the contrary, it’s a bad idea to point fingers when one is in a weak spot.

As of today, both aircraft enjoy advantages and disadvantages.

Maybe, but everything that has been said about Rafale has been proved wrong. Weaker engine = wrong, weaker radar = wrong, weaker performances = wrong.
The requirement for sustaining speed at Mach 2 and above was dropped at the end of the Cold War, because the purpose of such a capability was no longer around. The current more powerful engine of the Typhoon is powering an heavier airframe to a lower range, and lower payload. And did you have a good look at the RAF website ? What use is a more powerful engine if the Typhoon in the end is limited (for whatever reason) at the same speed as the Rafale ?
Every single “advantages” of the Typhoon have been proved wrong or lacking in substance.
That only leave the argument of the obsolescent FSO, but so far no potential export customer complained about it…

Yes, Rafale’s air-to-ground weapons integrations are several years ahead (and Rafale will always have wider multi-role capabilities than Typhoon), but since your priority was to replace Jaguar, that’s hardly surprising. But Typhoon is catching up.

So first the Typhoon was always supposed to be multi-role and to replace Jaguar and Tornado, but now suddenly you change your mind ? How smart.
The Typhoon capabilities are flawed due to the Eurofighter’s nation lack of cohesion, Germany even wanted a even more simplified version with a single engine at some point…

Yes Rafale is closer to getting an operational AESA, but Typhoon is catching up and will have a vastly superior AESA when it does.

And here we go again. So sad, so needy… Really, well if that can make you happy… As if the Typhoon wasn’t already putting quite a bit of weight further eroding whatever speed advantages it never had…

But Typhoon’s performance is superior and always will be, and Typhoon can supercruise with ease. Typhoon has a better MMI giving a lower pilot workload, and its advantage in this area will stretch further ahead when P1E enters service.

Typhoon perform as a Rafale A. Wait until you get the real figure of the added weight due to “useful” load, and come back to us. Oh and about pilot workload I guess you conveniently missed the Swiss report… BTW there is nothing in the P1E that the Rafale isn’t already doing since F2.

Typhoon has a world-leading helmet, and a great IRST. Rafale has neither (save the handful of original and admittedly obsolete OSF sets).

The helmet is on the technology side the only real argument for the Typhoon. Operationally though it’s still a unproven quality. Last time I went on the Thales website they were marketing both the PIRATE and the FSO…

Stupid caricatures such as yours do not add to the debate.

Stupid controversies such as yours do not add to the debate…

All I know is that the US has quite a heavy presence in the area presently. Three aircraft carriers along with their escorts, at least one SSGN and one Seal team, helicopter carriers, attack submarines etc. Officially it’s in response to Iran’s threat…
The UK and France are also present although in far fewer number… for now.
Then you have Alligator which is currently happening in the US, one of the biggest amphibious exercise in the US in about 10 years IIRC…

France and UK have been doing quite a few exercises as well recently.

There are also report of covert French forces in Turkey…

Anyway whatever is going on, I don’t think it’ll unravel before next year. UK and France need to “regenerate their potential” after Libya…

Russia is the best AD tool of Syria. After what happened in Libya, Russia will veto any move of the west (unless Obama gives on the European missile shield…), and they won’t allow their only remaining base in the region to become an US/Israeli base.

The program is under the control of the breaucrats for years looking for further safety claims. In the end the NH-90 will be a VIP-transport at first. 😀

Not true, it’s already operational with the French Navy, and IIRC has already been use in a rescue mission.

We must differentiate between political problems, those programs that were affected by the end of the cold war, and the technical problems due to innovation.

The NH90 is a bit like the JSF. Too many partners with too many requirements, leading to too many variants to be inducted almost simultaneously. The technical requirements are also quite ambitious. But those receiving the first operational variants seem quite happy so far.

The Tiger is something else. Technically completely in rupture with what France and Germany used to built. Germany had quite a cup full with the cost of reunification, and spending in military programs that could no longer justify their necessity was quite challenging politicly. In the end, it’s a platform that has still quite a long way to go. Apache and Cobra weren’t built in one day either, despite more funding.

I found the same article afterwards, it looks like Rafale has been learning lessons from all of the competitions its been in. I dont understand the claim of supercruise for the Rafale, is it able to supercruise?

What are the IAF getting? any details available?

Rafale is said to be able to supercruise with 6 missiles and 1 supersonic ext tank at around Mach 1.3.

The Typhoon has been in as much competitions as the Rafale. You only haven’t heard as much because it’s been disqualify almost from the beginning (i.e Brazil), while Rafale has made it to more finales, so noise has been made.

The truth is that it’s extremely hard for European aircraft industry to compete with the US and Russia. The US has economy of scale and a lot of political goodies and Russia usually sell cheap. So you will only see an opportunity with countries not willing to align themselves on the US, or with the money to buy high techs but the US isn’t willing to sell.

Yes I do consider the Eurofighter program as flawed, in the end leading to a flawed aircraft itself. Many European cooperation involving more than two partners have turn into nightmare especially when associating countries like England or France with a interventionist policy with other countries like Germany.

I state clearly that the British MoD has the habit of mishandling programs, it has been documented by a few commissions in the UK, and it’s not anti British to say that civil servant of the MoD have been incompetent. I leave in England so obviously I’m not allergic to this beautiful country (warm for its people if not for its weather;)).

I also can’t see clearly UK going alone in upgrading the Typhoon with such a black hole in its defence budget.

Now if you can provide me with any evidence that prior to 2007 when the four partner finally decided to implement AtG capabilities there were documentations showing a clear path toward AtG I will acknowledge it.
If you can provide with any info showing that P1E is more than basic upgrades mostly software that should have been included long ago in any aircraft claiming to be multi-role 4.5+ gen, then I’ll admit I was wrong.

But I don’t understand why instead of restructuring the program people keep blaming the German for been inept, the IAF for not been experienced enough in evaluating fighter jets, RIL for pricing the Rafale, now the French for providing “illegal subsidy”…

NAO reports are flawed, Italians stating the F-35 is cheaper must have a mental illness, as must have the Swiss and the Indian who both stated the Typhoon been more expansive. Even with the full strength of the wind blowing against you, you are still pissing against it…

At the end of the day have they learn a lesson ? No they still go for expansive and less reliable solutions with fancy AESA design no one can afford, still unable to lower maintenance etc.

So yes I’m anti Typhoon and anti F-35 (at least for Europe), two programs that are going to suck the blood dry of the different European MoDs, meaning it will be difficult for Europe to recover and have the political will to launch another program capable to retain European independence (although UK and France seem to make some noise, but I have my doubt if it’s going to go somewhere).

Now Everyone is free to have his/her opinion. But the very manner in which some here are trying to evaluate the cost of Typhoon for India is flawed like the plane. BAE is not selling the Typhoon alone. So while the fly away cost migt be “guesstimated” you need to take into account the money spent by Germany, Italy and Spain to develop the program. They too will try to get some money back. Which is why BAE can only succeed in lowering the price in India if they can find consensus with EADS and Finmeccanica on fly away cost, life cycle cost, and ToT cost. And that’s assuming you can convince Italy to provide more support for the program.

In the end that explain the recent comment by BAE saying that they prefer to focus on Oman since India is not really worth it with 18 aircraft to share between. Oh and apparently Cameron hasn’t done much since his little talk in the parliament. Shows how much faith he has (and he should be the best informed about the reality of the program than any of us).

Sweden, Greece, Switzerland etc. are only acting as subcontractors and suppliers on the Neuron project. Dassault can decide to further develop that platform with BAE if it so wishes. The other are free to decide if they are willing to try and get work share even if their govt buy US.